Please Help Diagnose: 87 4Runner Tranny sounds *violent* now
09-25-2011, 12:18 AM
#21
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Your front main bearing is gone and the more you keep driving the other bearings will follow.
4th gear is quiet because its not a gear. 4th just connects the input and output shafts for a 1 to 1 ratio. These shafts are inline so there is no side load on the bearings to make noise.
All other gears have to transfer power from the input shaft down to the counter gear shaft then back up to the output shaft. This puts side load on the bearings which when worn out will make a whirring noise. When the bearings are worn the gear teeth no longer have the proper clearance and alignment so they start making there own noises too.
I've been thru 2 with the same problem. After the 2nd one I tore them both apart to find the front main bearing wasted on both. My Buddy's trans started whirring so he had his rebuilt. I got his old parts and sure enough one of the main bearings has bad too. The front and rear main bearings are the same. The rear is inside the case and gets plenty of lube. The front is actually on the outside of the case and covered by a bearing housing. It does not get anywhere near the lubrication as all the other bearings get.
I'm sorry to say this but no amount of super lube is going to save it now.
4th gear is quiet because its not a gear. 4th just connects the input and output shafts for a 1 to 1 ratio. These shafts are inline so there is no side load on the bearings to make noise.
All other gears have to transfer power from the input shaft down to the counter gear shaft then back up to the output shaft. This puts side load on the bearings which when worn out will make a whirring noise. When the bearings are worn the gear teeth no longer have the proper clearance and alignment so they start making there own noises too.
I've been thru 2 with the same problem. After the 2nd one I tore them both apart to find the front main bearing wasted on both. My Buddy's trans started whirring so he had his rebuilt. I got his old parts and sure enough one of the main bearings has bad too. The front and rear main bearings are the same. The rear is inside the case and gets plenty of lube. The front is actually on the outside of the case and covered by a bearing housing. It does not get anywhere near the lubrication as all the other bearings get.
I'm sorry to say this but no amount of super lube is going to save it now.
09-25-2011, 12:39 AM
#22
I had bearings fail on a transmission about a year after rebuild it does happen.
My driving was about like yours just a short commute to work and grocery shopping.
The longer it is driven the more chance of major gear damage worst case a bearing grenades locking up the transmission
My driving was about like yours just a short commute to work and grocery shopping.
The longer it is driven the more chance of major gear damage worst case a bearing grenades locking up the transmission
09-25-2011, 05:37 PM
#23
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Thanks guys....ugh, that doesn't sound good at all!
I need to noodle on this some, as I don't think I have the expertise to rebuild my transmission.
Shucks
I need to noodle on this some, as I don't think I have the expertise to rebuild my transmission.
Shucks
09-27-2011, 06:38 PM
#24
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Your front main bearing is gone and the more you keep driving the other bearings will follow.
4th gear is quiet because its not a gear. 4th just connects the input and output shafts for a 1 to 1 ratio. These shafts are inline so there is no side load on the bearings to make noise.
All other gears have to transfer power from the input shaft down to the counter gear shaft then back up to the output shaft. This puts side load on the bearings which when worn out will make a whirring noise. When the bearings are worn the gear teeth no longer have the proper clearance and alignment so they start making there own noises too.
I've been thru 2 with the same problem. After the 2nd one I tore them both apart to find the front main bearing wasted on both. My Buddy's trans started whirring so he had his rebuilt. I got his old parts and sure enough one of the main bearings has bad too. The front and rear main bearings are the same. The rear is inside the case and gets plenty of lube. The front is actually on the outside of the case and covered by a bearing housing. It does not get anywhere near the lubrication as all the other bearings get.
I'm sorry to say this but no amount of super lube is going to save it now.
4th gear is quiet because its not a gear. 4th just connects the input and output shafts for a 1 to 1 ratio. These shafts are inline so there is no side load on the bearings to make noise.
All other gears have to transfer power from the input shaft down to the counter gear shaft then back up to the output shaft. This puts side load on the bearings which when worn out will make a whirring noise. When the bearings are worn the gear teeth no longer have the proper clearance and alignment so they start making there own noises too.
I've been thru 2 with the same problem. After the 2nd one I tore them both apart to find the front main bearing wasted on both. My Buddy's trans started whirring so he had his rebuilt. I got his old parts and sure enough one of the main bearings has bad too. The front and rear main bearings are the same. The rear is inside the case and gets plenty of lube. The front is actually on the outside of the case and covered by a bearing housing. It does not get anywhere near the lubrication as all the other bearings get.
I'm sorry to say this but no amount of super lube is going to save it now.
THANX for this nice, clear explanation of what's going on with this pretty common break down point for these trannys.
i am dealing with this same concern right now. the lucas goo maybe just a band aid, but who knows how long it will run. at least long enough to come up with a plan. and a lot of things will whine for years and just keep going and blow your mind its still doing it. main reason i love toyotas!
but it seems there's a decent supply of used trannys out there, so i'm probably going to try to think of it like used tires: buy 'em cheap, run 'em hard, swap 'em out when they just won't go. around here a w56 can be had for "$250 runs good" from a truck the owner just ain't doing another HG for.
don't forget to check car-part.com for salvage parts searching.
09-28-2011, 09:22 AM
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Thanks - I've been looking at classifieds the past week to get an idea and yes, they are out there and not too expensive. The noise isn't that bad right now, though I consiously try to keep it in 4th on the freeway now 
I only put about 5,000 miles a year on the truck - and I looked it up - I had the rebuilt tranny installed 4 years and 20,000 miles ago exactly....Do you think I could get another 20,000 out of it before it dies? I did some searching on YT and thought that maybe I could replace the input shaft bearing without tearing the gears out - this thread has a TON of great photos of a W56 teardown:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...thread-219038/
But according to Moonfish, the author, you need to pull out gears in order to replace the bearings
I can stand the noise - just wondering realistically how long I can keep driving it before it blows up and, if so, how much warning I'll have so I can track down a used one
I want to focus on other projects right now, like the Chevy Springs and Sky kit I have sitting in my garage.
Phil
I only put about 5,000 miles a year on the truck - and I looked it up - I had the rebuilt tranny installed 4 years and 20,000 miles ago exactly....Do you think I could get another 20,000 out of it before it dies? I did some searching on YT and thought that maybe I could replace the input shaft bearing without tearing the gears out - this thread has a TON of great photos of a W56 teardown:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...thread-219038/
But according to Moonfish, the author, you need to pull out gears in order to replace the bearings
I can stand the noise - just wondering realistically how long I can keep driving it before it blows up and, if so, how much warning I'll have so I can track down a used one
I want to focus on other projects right now, like the Chevy Springs and Sky kit I have sitting in my garage.
Phil
09-28-2011, 10:15 AM
#26
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I noticed you said you put in gl-5 along with the Lucas. I think the gl-5 is a little to slippery for the W-56, plus it's corrosive for the syncros. The correct stuff to use is gl-4, like the MT-90 from redline. I don't know if this will help any, if at all. Just letting you know...
09-28-2011, 11:14 AM
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I noticed you said you put in gl-5 along with the Lucas. I think the gl-5 is a little to slippery for the W-56, plus it's corrosive for the syncros. The correct stuff to use is gl-4, like the MT-90 from redline. I don't know if this will help any, if at all. Just letting you know...
Thanks! I believe the container said "GL4/GL5" and frankly I don't know the difference - though I've heard in general thicker oil is good for aging trannys (hence Lucas). I may do that if this gets worse in the coming months - thanks for the tip!
Is there an even thicker oil one can use?
09-29-2011, 10:08 AM
#28
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Thanks! I believe the container said "GL4/GL5" and frankly I don't know the difference - though I've heard in general thicker oil is good for aging trannys (hence Lucas). I may do that if this gets worse in the coming months - thanks for the tip!
Is there an even thicker oil one can use?
Is there an even thicker oil one can use?
"Safe for brass synchros, as it lacks the reactive sulfurs found in most GL-5 oils that cause damage"
so you may want to check if the GL-5 you used has these sulfurs. it may specify "no sulfurs" which allowed them to say it was GL-4 compatible.
also, i don't have an owner's manual handy, does toyota specify GL-4 only? if it doesn't then you'd be ok too.
that said, if you expect to swap another trans in there soon enough, it still may not be necessary to drain/refill and waste that lucas goo.
if you're able, shop for a replacement now and store it on hand until the current unit starts giving you more trouble.
Last edited by tj884Rdlx; 09-29-2011 at 10:21 AM.
09-29-2011, 10:20 AM
#29
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Thanks - I'll check it out!
from the redline website:
"Safe for brass synchros, as it lacks the reactive sulfurs found in most GL-5 oils that cause damage"
so you may want to check if the GL-5 you used has these sulfurs. it may specify "no sulfurs" which allowed them to say it was GL-4 compatible.
that said, if you expect to swap another trans in there soon enough, it still may not be necessary to drain/refill and waste that lucas goo.
if you're able, shop for a replacement now and store it on hand until the current unit starts giving you more trouble.
"Safe for brass synchros, as it lacks the reactive sulfurs found in most GL-5 oils that cause damage"
so you may want to check if the GL-5 you used has these sulfurs. it may specify "no sulfurs" which allowed them to say it was GL-4 compatible.
that said, if you expect to swap another trans in there soon enough, it still may not be necessary to drain/refill and waste that lucas goo.
if you're able, shop for a replacement now and store it on hand until the current unit starts giving you more trouble.
10-04-2011, 12:39 PM
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Anyone in the SF bay area who wouldn't mind taking a ride along/listen to what I have going on (and could weigh in on this)?
I live in Pleasanton and commute to Santa Clara. Going to be pretty busy the next 2 weeks but could arrange a meet up toward the end of October during the week?
I just want to get a second or third opinion on this from somone who knows...I may be overreacting on just how loud the noise is.
Thanks
I live in Pleasanton and commute to Santa Clara. Going to be pretty busy the next 2 weeks but could arrange a meet up toward the end of October during the week?
I just want to get a second or third opinion on this from somone who knows...I may be overreacting on just how loud the noise is.
Thanks
10-06-2011, 11:31 AM
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Update....
So last night, 4th gear started popping out randomly (i've been using 4th on the freeway since this issue started, to avoid wear on the "noisy" gears). Today on the way to work, 4th popped more and more frequently.
I called the mechanic who installed the remanned tranny 4 years (and 20,000 miles) ago, and he's preplexed. I'm taking it to him tomorrow for a ride along so I can get his opinion. Oh, and he has since sold his shop.....awesome.
So last night, 4th gear started popping out randomly (i've been using 4th on the freeway since this issue started, to avoid wear on the "noisy" gears). Today on the way to work, 4th popped more and more frequently.
I called the mechanic who installed the remanned tranny 4 years (and 20,000 miles) ago, and he's preplexed. I'm taking it to him tomorrow for a ride along so I can get his opinion. Oh, and he has since sold his shop.....awesome.
10-06-2011, 11:52 AM
#32
Sorry I'm not closer, Phil! I would be there in a heartbeat!!!!
Glad you got the guy to check it out... And just so you know, I was dealing with this "popping out of 4th" issue, myself. If I was ON THE GAS, it didn't seem as likely to happen... but when I'm still under load(like on a hill, or letting off the gas as I approached traffic) it would just 'POP' out of 4th. The strange thing is, regarding this condition.... when I found out it was low, I refilled it with the "Castrol GL4-GL5 compatible" recommended W75-90 and as I remember, it began to POP OUT! After a 2 year period, it began to build up sludge or whatever, again, and it stopped popping out. Then, as I installed the input shaft bearing housing seal/swapped out the oil again on EVERYTHING(just months ago with the motor build#2! lol).... and now, it suddendly GRINDS going into 4th Gear, unless I either double clutch it or shift into 4th while in the 3200+RPM range, CAREFULLY, ..... it doesn't grind, but I can feel a 'click-CLUNK' in my hand, like it's 'rolling over' onto that 4th gear stuff.
HOWEVER, ....my trans is pretty quiet other than that 4th gear 'grind'..... And for me, at least, it's not really having problems going into 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 5th......
One other 'HOWEVER', Phil, is that I have NEVER had this trans rebuilt.... I don't think it's ever been, either. So 263K on orig. W56, ...... I guess it was bound to happen... I just don't wanna get stranded, like I'm sure is your concern as well.
Sorry I can't give you an analytical posting like you've received(AWESOME
), .... But, just trying to let you know what I THINK led up to my 'situation'.... Changing the oil, being that final straw, IMHO. lol.
Glad you got the guy to check it out... And just so you know, I was dealing with this "popping out of 4th" issue, myself. If I was ON THE GAS, it didn't seem as likely to happen... but when I'm still under load(like on a hill, or letting off the gas as I approached traffic) it would just 'POP' out of 4th. The strange thing is, regarding this condition.... when I found out it was low, I refilled it with the "Castrol GL4-GL5 compatible" recommended W75-90 and as I remember, it began to POP OUT! After a 2 year period, it began to build up sludge or whatever, again, and it stopped popping out. Then, as I installed the input shaft bearing housing seal/swapped out the oil again on EVERYTHING(just months ago with the motor build#2! lol).... and now, it suddendly GRINDS going into 4th Gear, unless I either double clutch it or shift into 4th while in the 3200+RPM range, CAREFULLY, ..... it doesn't grind, but I can feel a 'click-CLUNK' in my hand, like it's 'rolling over' onto that 4th gear stuff.
HOWEVER, ....my trans is pretty quiet other than that 4th gear 'grind'..... And for me, at least, it's not really having problems going into 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 5th......
One other 'HOWEVER', Phil, is that I have NEVER had this trans rebuilt.... I don't think it's ever been, either. So 263K on orig. W56, ...... I guess it was bound to happen... I just don't wanna get stranded, like I'm sure is your concern as well.
Sorry I can't give you an analytical posting like you've received(AWESOME
), .... But, just trying to let you know what I THINK led up to my 'situation'.... Changing the oil, being that final straw, IMHO. lol.
10-06-2011, 12:35 PM
#33
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See, that's the thing... Not trying to think for Phil.... but personally, I would rather pay 510$ to have all new bearings, gaskets, seals, syncros and gears fully inspected, with a decent warranty, too, ... ya know? Course, that's without the T-case... but that's not as likely bad.
the trans shop i was considering to go to, who was referred by my local 4x4 shop, is the same shop i already took it to for an evaluation of the sound. they charged me $80 to tell me it could last forever or fail next week, then they failed to tell me they blew out my inner CV boot while running it in 4wd on the lift.
10-06-2011, 12:38 PM
#34
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Update....
So last night, 4th gear started popping out randomly (i've been using 4th on the freeway since this issue started, to avoid wear on the "noisy" gears). Today on the way to work, 4th popped more and more frequently.
I called the mechanic who installed the remanned tranny 4 years (and 20,000 miles) ago, and he's preplexed. I'm taking it to him tomorrow for a ride along so I can get his opinion. Oh, and he has since sold his shop.....awesome.
So last night, 4th gear started popping out randomly (i've been using 4th on the freeway since this issue started, to avoid wear on the "noisy" gears). Today on the way to work, 4th popped more and more frequently.
I called the mechanic who installed the remanned tranny 4 years (and 20,000 miles) ago, and he's preplexed. I'm taking it to him tomorrow for a ride along so I can get his opinion. Oh, and he has since sold his shop.....awesome.
sounds like at the least, he could help install a used trans if not help with rebuilding the one you have in there.
good luck phil! i sympathize completely! i'm not poppin out of gear yet, but i'm not daily driving it anymore either.
10-06-2011, 12:55 PM
#35
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Thanks guys! I'll let you know what he says...but while he used to help me out with deals here and there (when he owned the shop), seems like he doesn't have that flexibility anymore, and he just "consults" there...strange, and I haven't been to him in a while, since I've been learning so much on my own the last few years.
So at least, I'll get his opinion, and know where to go from there. He is shocked that it's having issues after only 20K miles, as I am.
Oh, and until I had done the lucas treatment a couple weeks back (when the symptoms started), there had not been a gear oil change since he did the job (20,000 miles ago), and I think 30,000 miles is the recommended change timeline? When I drained it, gear oil level was fine - just below the fill hole, and it looked OK.
So at least, I'll get his opinion, and know where to go from there. He is shocked that it's having issues after only 20K miles, as I am.
Oh, and until I had done the lucas treatment a couple weeks back (when the symptoms started), there had not been a gear oil change since he did the job (20,000 miles ago), and I think 30,000 miles is the recommended change timeline? When I drained it, gear oil level was fine - just below the fill hole, and it looked OK.
10-06-2011, 01:12 PM
#36
Phil..... I'm a knob! lol. I just rethought that out, after I'd posted it, ...then came here only to find you VERY KINDLY mentioning, "Yeah, it's a newly rebuilt trans"... hahahaha. Sorry man....
Hope the guy slides you a SOLID opinion, Philbert!
Hope the guy slides you a SOLID opinion, Philbert!
10-07-2011, 12:47 PM
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Hey Phil - I have a 99 V6, 4x4, 5speed manual that is doing something similar. I replaced the clutch a few years ago with an MC HD (about 25K miles...) and it recently started to make this goofy sound when the clutch pedal is depressed and/or when I shift out of any gear into neutral (during regular gear shifts or when coming to a stop). I can get the noise to stop if I release the clutch pedal in all cases. I am going to pull the tranny tomorrow and inspect the pilot and throw out bearings, etc. I'll post a video with the sound it is making...hopefully the problem will be pretty evident. It doesn't sound like our problems are exactly the same but it never hurts to have something to compare and contrast to.
10-08-2011, 12:43 AM
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Hey Phil - I have a 99 V6, 4x4, 5speed manual that is doing something similar. I replaced the clutch a few years ago with an MC HD (about 25K miles...) and it recently started to make this goofy sound when the clutch pedal is depressed and/or when I shift out of any gear into neutral (during regular gear shifts or when coming to a stop). I can get the noise to stop if I release the clutch pedal in all cases. I am going to pull the tranny tomorrow and inspect the pilot and throw out bearings, etc. I'll post a video with the sound it is making...hopefully the problem will be pretty evident. It doesn't sound like our problems are exactly the same but it never hurts to have something to compare and contrast to.
Fourth gear is prett much gone now....syncros i think.
Pretty sure it was bad bearings that led to all this but it could be clutch related, so i look forwardto yourvideo........
