Cold start noise

toyota4x4907 · 12-02-2008, 12:58 AM

Its cold here! Go figure, huh? -10F during the days for the past 2 weeks! Who would have thought that the cold would cause some problems when starting your vehicles? Not I. Lawlz. I digress....
My problem: Sometimes I forget to plug in my truck at night. By "plugging in" I mean plug in the oil pan, block and tranny heaters so my truck will start in the morning after sitting in -20..-30...-40 degree weather all night. Well, the dozen or so times I've forgotten to plug it in, once I start it it does a very odd thing! It starts fine, albeit a little sluggishly, but after about 10 seconds of running, it makes a really strange sound like something rubbing, then sort of shutters, almost like its about to seize. It only does this for about a second. Then the exhaust starts to be brown.....and when it did the shutter thing, I felt the steering wheel jerk. the exhaust clears out in 30 to 60 seconds, depending on how long it sat and how cold it was. Obviously I just need to remember to always plug it in..but it still bothers me. and It has done this like twice during the day after it sat for maybe 4 hours. Any ideas? Thanks

On a lighter note, I put my old K&N air filter back in it because it seemed to be gasping for air at higher speeds....worked perfectly

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toyota4x4907 · 12-02-2008, 01:46 PM

NEARMMM!!tu-tu-tu-tu-tu-tu-tu-tu....POW!!!....

Of course its probably not fully lubed after sitting in the cold for a few hours, but no other vehicle I have started in the cold has done anything like this...and it only started about a month ago when it got cold.

jason191918 · 12-02-2008, 02:01 PM

What oil weight?

toyota4x4907 · 12-02-2008, 02:09 PM

I've always used 10w-30 with no problem before and I've owned this truck for 5 years..

toyota4x4907 · 12-02-2008, 03:25 PM

Heres a video/sound clip:

toyota4x4907 · 12-02-2008, 03:59 PM

62 views and one reply

...sheesh. Newbs asking questions about tire size and lockers get more attention!

ScottyC · 12-02-2008, 08:59 PM

Power steering pump making the noise? Steering wheel jerking is kind of a giveaway.

Might be time for some thinner oil too. Synthetic maybe.

abecedarian · 12-02-2008, 09:12 PM

could be the ps pump dragging the engine down putting it into detonation (causing the shudder and smoke)
when was the last time the pump fluid was changed?

toyota4x4907 · 12-02-2008, 09:33 PM

haha...uh...not since I've owned it 87K miles to 147Kmiles. and who knows when before that. I never really thought to change it. I'm sure the cold is just making it thicker than the pump can handle...
Phew..I never thought about the PS pump, etc. doing this. This makes me feel better. I was thinking maybe like one of the piston rings were shrinking and letting oil past it..or like the block was contracting more than the pistons and...blah..I dont know much about vehicles if you can't tell

thanks guys..
I'm not going synthetic. I like dino oil. I may get thinner oil though...like 5W-30. Not likely..but I may consider it.

ScottyC · 12-02-2008, 09:44 PM

Make sure you run Dexron in the power steering pump. NOT power steering fluid.

georgiayota · 12-02-2008, 09:46 PM

If it's the ps pump why would it be blowing brown smoke?

toyota4x4907 · 12-02-2008, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottyC

Make sure you run Dexron in the power steering pump. NOT power steering fluid.

Haha. I've been on this site long enough to know that! Thanks for the reminder though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by georgiayota

If it's the ps pump why would it be blowing brown smoke?

Thats what I was wondering as well. But what Abe said, it may be lagging the engine back a little so the timing isnt right so it burns differently. The exhaust starts to clear in about a minute as I said in the first post.

abecedarian · 12-02-2008, 10:15 PM

one thing you could try is pull the ps pump belt and see if it does it in the morning. if it does... well you know. if it doesn't... got some more to think about.

now one thing bout the video has me thinking... (I went back and have been listening again)... that noise seems to be to be a fairly mechnical, almost a gear or something grinding. Could be PS idler.
I wonder if the starter drive gear is hanging out at the flywheel and the noise starts the gear is vibrating back into the starter, or maybe ice in a coolant line getting chewed by the water pump.

can you isolate an area of the engine where the noise seems to be coming from, like maybe start it then get in front of the truck real fast (or have someone else start it) and listen?

toyota4x4907 · 12-02-2008, 10:39 PM

I'll deff try taking the belt off tomorrow when I start it. By the "PS idler" do you mean the idler pulley on the belt route? If so, the bearing in the stock one shattered last year around this time so I went about 2 weeks with no PS before I got a new pulley. I dont think you mean that, but Im just throwing it out there. It does sound mechanical. Along with the shrinking block theory of mine, I, too, was thinking maybe ice in the coolant system being broken by the pump, or something in the oil and the pump. Also, I was thinking the starter as well, but only briefly. I dont see how it being cold would make the gear vibrate out as opposed to when I have it plugged it at night and start it. I replaced the starter with a new one summer before last, so its fairly new. What makes me stray from the ice in the coolant theory is earlier today, around 4, after I took this vid, I started it and the whining/grindig noise continued until it was warm, maybe 5 minutes. It was -25F then so I didn't stay outside long enough to know EXACTLY how long, but I guestimated. and I lightly tapped the accelerator, and the noise increased slightly with the increase of RPMs. I also stood in front of the truck while it was doing this, not really long enough to determine which side, but it was louder towards the front. I will take the belt off and try that. And, after reinstalling the belt, try to determine which side its coming from.
I really appreciate you taking the time to review the video a few times, Abe.

abecedarian · 12-02-2008, 10:56 PM

I was bored.

Yes, I was referring to the idler pulley on the power steering belt.
As for ice in the coolant, there is a pipe from the heater core to the rear of the water pump so... is your antifreeze in good shape? Is the temperature slider on the heater controls to the hot or cold side when you start it?
The starter theory was just a stab in the dark thinking the cold gear may be hanging up when you start it, then vibrating back in.

toyota4x4907 · 12-02-2008, 11:16 PM

If you're bored..maybe you should me tending to your wife?

Still, thanks.
The coolant is in great shape. Always kept full even with my leak. I believe I have the water/anti-freeze ratio at or about -45F. I've been leaving the heater control on hot since I replaced the radiator and haven't had any problems with the T-stat sticking. If it has to do with ice in the coolant system, then why do you think the exhaust would be brown? and its not just brown, like it will shoot brown sooty junk on the ground! Also, the tail pipe was dripping more than often, but whatever it was dripping was black. It's probably just condensation turned black from soot in the exhaust pipe, but still, something to take note of.
The starter theory is viable. As is the PS pump/pulley lagging the engine. But if it has to do with the starter, any idea why the exhaust would be brown?

just a 22re · 12-02-2008, 11:21 PM

it sounded like my moms chopper the high powered one when you have it on hi and throw ice cubes in it i think it might be ice chunks getting eating by the water pump but the smoke just looks like its running rich should be normal for -40 and so on and if your at -40 coolant around here is good for around -30 so i think you should get her warmed up let her cool enough to pop the rad cap off and test it to see if it will be ok at -40 and you should be passing -55 to almost -65 to be sure

dont sound right man really dont

as for the auto trany fluid in the ps pump i never did that with my trail rig i sucked her dry and put ps fluid in her never had a problem in 4 years now

abecedarian · 12-02-2008, 11:32 PM

again, maybe conjecture, and regardless of the source of the noise...
maybe the knock sensor is hearing the noise and retarding the timing....
What does your idle do when it's making noise? Is it remaining constant?

toyota4x4907 · 12-02-2008, 11:41 PM

Haha. Ice crushers are fun!
It wasn't -40 when the I took the video. It hasn't been -40...yet... It was about -15 and the coolant ratio is at about -45 I believe.
I'm not worried about the PS fluid (ATF thats in it) really. I know its full. I've checked it like 3 times since the summer. I didn't think about the truck running rich when its cold....derrr me. It doesn't turn brown until after that noise, though...and like I said, clears up in about a minute.

I think I'm just paranoid, ya?

toyota4x4907 · 12-02-2008, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abecedarian

again, maybe conjecture, and regardless of the source of the noise...
maybe the knock sensor is hearing the noise and retarding the timing....
What does your idle do when it's making noise? Is it remaining constant?

Hm, I thought the knock sensor was placed higher on the block and closer to the cylinders on the passenger side so as to lessen the chance of outside vibrations tripping it. Doesn't it go off vibrations? or is it noise? Yes, the idle stays constant.

Skinsfan6 · 12-03-2008, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toyota4x4907

Hm, I thought the knock sensor was placed higher on the block and closer to the cylinders on the passenger side so as to lessen the chance of outside vibrations tripping it. Doesn't it go off vibrations? or is it noise? Yes, the idle stays constant.

Sound waves are vibrations...so either way, both.

dbcx · 12-03-2008, 08:16 AM

I know its cld there but the battery sounded like it was turning the engine awful slow to crank it up. Do you think you got some bad gas? I got some last week it took a tank of fuel to clear it out. My fuel in my filter was nasty, I changed it in the process. As cold as it is there bad gas could make it moe noticeable, when i was figuring mine out it was the worst on cold mornings and almost unnoticeable when warm in the afternoon.
I would go to a thinner oil also as cold as it gets.
Whts wrong with synthetic?

toyota4x4907 · 12-03-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skinsfan6

Sound waves are vibrations...so either way, both.

good point

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbcx

I know its cld there but the battery sounded like it was turning the engine awful slow to crank it up. Do you think you got some bad gas? I got some last week it took a tank of fuel to clear it out. My fuel in my filter was nasty, I changed it in the process. As cold as it is there bad gas could make it moe noticeable, when i was figuring mine out it was the worst on cold mornings and almost unnoticeable when warm in the afternoon.
I would go to a thinner oil also as cold as it gets.
Whts wrong with synthetic?

It sounded sluggish because it was sitting in -20F for a few hours the night before, not plugged in and I dont have a battery blanket/heater.
Are you suggesting the gas has something to do with it? I get gas from three different stations, two different companies. I cant recall which because I never really pay attention. It has been doing that noise for about a month, and in that time I've filled up at least 4 different times, alternating the stations. I only do that because one is cheaper but a little more out of my way, one is right by the university and on the way to my sisters house, and the other one is down town where I seem to end up a lot lately

As far as synthetic, I have nothing against it, I'd just rather use dead dinos. I've never had problems with 10w-30 starting in cold weather, so really, I see no need to switch.

toyota4x4907 · 12-03-2008, 02:50 PM

Its deff the PS pump. I opened the hood, started it up, jumped out and got by the engine as soon as it made the noise. I saw the steering rod (?) jerk (from the firewall to the...uh..pitman arm?) and the noise came from the PS pump. Now..any idea what could be happening? PS pump going out? Cold PS fluid? Am I just being paranoid?

abecedarian · 12-03-2008, 02:54 PM

wonder if there's some moisture in your steering fluid? it would settle to the bottom of the system and possibly freeze the valving.

12-02-2008, 01:46 PM	#2 (permalink)
toyota4x4907 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 2,330	NEARMMM!!tu-tu-tu-tu-tu-tu-tu-tu....POW!!!.... Of course its probably not fully lubed after sitting in the cold for a few hours, but no other vehicle I have started in the cold has done anything like this...and it only started about a month ago when it got cold. __________________ '95 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|130K miles\|ISR\| 2" BL\| 31x10.5 \| CompuStar Auto-start\| two 170mm LightForce\|anti-sway bars removed f/r\|Warn manual hubs\|ADD bypassed\|Diff breather extensions\|XLPerformance muffler '88 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|206K miles\|Sold '93 single cab\|22re\|5spd\|150K miles\|Sold\| Pro IFS

12-02-2008, 02:09 PM	#4 (permalink)
toyota4x4907 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 2,330	I've always used 10w-30 with no problem before and I've owned this truck for 5 years.. __________________ '95 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|130K miles\|ISR\| 2" BL\| 31x10.5 \| CompuStar Auto-start\| two 170mm LightForce\|anti-sway bars removed f/r\|Warn manual hubs\|ADD bypassed\|Diff breather extensions\|XLPerformance muffler '88 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|206K miles\|Sold '93 single cab\|22re\|5spd\|150K miles\|Sold\| Pro IFS

12-02-2008, 03:59 PM	#6 (permalink)
toyota4x4907 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 2,330	62 views and one reply ...sheesh. Newbs asking questions about tire size and lockers get more attention! __________________ '95 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|130K miles\|ISR\| 2" BL\| 31x10.5 \| CompuStar Auto-start\| two 170mm LightForce\|anti-sway bars removed f/r\|Warn manual hubs\|ADD bypassed\|Diff breather extensions\|XLPerformance muffler '88 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|206K miles\|Sold '93 single cab\|22re\|5spd\|150K miles\|Sold\| Pro IFS

12-02-2008, 08:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
ScottyC Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Windsor/Greeley, CO Posts: 1,179	Power steering pump making the noise? Steering wheel jerking is kind of a giveaway. Might be time for some thinner oil too. Synthetic maybe. __________________ Scotty http://www.addictedoffroad.com/ 970-420-4198 Toyota Winch bumpers on SALE!

12-02-2008, 09:33 PM	#9 (permalink)
toyota4x4907 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 2,330	haha...uh...not since I've owned it 87K miles to 147Kmiles. and who knows when before that. I never really thought to change it. I'm sure the cold is just making it thicker than the pump can handle... Phew..I never thought about the PS pump, etc. doing this. This makes me feel better. I was thinking maybe like one of the piston rings were shrinking and letting oil past it..or like the block was contracting more than the pistons and...blah..I dont know much about vehicles if you can't tell thanks guys.. I'm not going synthetic. I like dino oil. I may get thinner oil though...like 5W-30. Not likely..but I may consider it. __________________ '95 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|130K miles\|ISR\| 2" BL\| 31x10.5 \| CompuStar Auto-start\| two 170mm LightForce\|anti-sway bars removed f/r\|Warn manual hubs\|ADD bypassed\|Diff breather extensions\|XLPerformance muffler '88 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|206K miles\|Sold '93 single cab\|22re\|5spd\|150K miles\|Sold\| Pro IFS

12-02-2008, 09:44 PM	#10 (permalink)
ScottyC Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Windsor/Greeley, CO Posts: 1,179	Make sure you run Dexron in the power steering pump. NOT power steering fluid. __________________ Scotty http://www.addictedoffroad.com/ 970-420-4198 Toyota Winch bumpers on SALE!

12-02-2008, 09:46 PM	#11 (permalink)
georgiayota Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Outside of Statesboro, Ga Posts: 373	If it's the ps pump why would it be blowing brown smoke? __________________ So much to do, yet so little money. under construction: 82 Pickup still getting goodies build up thread: http://www.yotatech.com/f114/my-82-b...thread-158522/ parents commuter: 07 Camry, K&N, tinted windows, 135,XXX miles My other toys: 2008 Kawasaki KFX 450r, pro circuit exhaust, tusk black nerfs, tag black front bumper 2004 Suzuki Eiger 4x4, custom snorkels, 27 mudlites, warn 2500, uni filter

12-02-2008, 10:39 PM	#14 (permalink)
toyota4x4907 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 2,330	I'll deff try taking the belt off tomorrow when I start it. By the "PS idler" do you mean the idler pulley on the belt route? If so, the bearing in the stock one shattered last year around this time so I went about 2 weeks with no PS before I got a new pulley. I dont think you mean that, but Im just throwing it out there. It does sound mechanical. Along with the shrinking block theory of mine, I, too, was thinking maybe ice in the coolant system being broken by the pump, or something in the oil and the pump. Also, I was thinking the starter as well, but only briefly. I dont see how it being cold would make the gear vibrate out as opposed to when I have it plugged it at night and start it. I replaced the starter with a new one summer before last, so its fairly new. What makes me stray from the ice in the coolant theory is earlier today, around 4, after I took this vid, I started it and the whining/grindig noise continued until it was warm, maybe 5 minutes. It was -25F then so I didn't stay outside long enough to know EXACTLY how long, but I guestimated. and I lightly tapped the accelerator, and the noise increased slightly with the increase of RPMs. I also stood in front of the truck while it was doing this, not really long enough to determine which side, but it was louder towards the front. I will take the belt off and try that. And, after reinstalling the belt, try to determine which side its coming from. I really appreciate you taking the time to review the video a few times, Abe. __________________ '95 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|130K miles\|ISR\| 2" BL\| 31x10.5 \| CompuStar Auto-start\| two 170mm LightForce\|anti-sway bars removed f/r\|Warn manual hubs\|ADD bypassed\|Diff breather extensions\|XLPerformance muffler '88 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|206K miles\|Sold '93 single cab\|22re\|5spd\|150K miles\|Sold\| Pro IFS

12-02-2008, 11:16 PM	#16 (permalink)
toyota4x4907 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 2,330	If you're bored..maybe you should me tending to your wife? Still, thanks. The coolant is in great shape. Always kept full even with my leak. I believe I have the water/anti-freeze ratio at or about -45F. I've been leaving the heater control on hot since I replaced the radiator and haven't had any problems with the T-stat sticking. If it has to do with ice in the coolant system, then why do you think the exhaust would be brown? and its not just brown, like it will shoot brown sooty junk on the ground! Also, the tail pipe was dripping more than often, but whatever it was dripping was black. It's probably just condensation turned black from soot in the exhaust pipe, but still, something to take note of. The starter theory is viable. As is the PS pump/pulley lagging the engine. But if it has to do with the starter, any idea why the exhaust would be brown? __________________ '95 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|130K miles\|ISR\| 2" BL\| 31x10.5 \| CompuStar Auto-start\| two 170mm LightForce\|anti-sway bars removed f/r\|Warn manual hubs\|ADD bypassed\|Diff breather extensions\|XLPerformance muffler '88 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|206K miles\|Sold '93 single cab\|22re\|5spd\|150K miles\|Sold\| Pro IFS

12-02-2008, 11:41 PM	#19 (permalink)
toyota4x4907 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 2,330	Haha. Ice crushers are fun! It wasn't -40 when the I took the video. It hasn't been -40...yet... It was about -15 and the coolant ratio is at about -45 I believe. I'm not worried about the PS fluid (ATF thats in it) really. I know its full. I've checked it like 3 times since the summer. I didn't think about the truck running rich when its cold....derrr me. It doesn't turn brown until after that noise, though...and like I said, clears up in about a minute. I think I'm just paranoid, ya? __________________ '95 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|130K miles\|ISR\| 2" BL\| 31x10.5 \| CompuStar Auto-start\| two 170mm LightForce\|anti-sway bars removed f/r\|Warn manual hubs\|ADD bypassed\|Diff breather extensions\|XLPerformance muffler '88 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|206K miles\|Sold '93 single cab\|22re\|5spd\|150K miles\|Sold\| Pro IFS

12-03-2008, 08:16 AM	#22 (permalink)
dbcx Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Hazzard County, Georgia Posts: 425	I know its cld there but the battery sounded like it was turning the engine awful slow to crank it up. Do you think you got some bad gas? I got some last week it took a tank of fuel to clear it out. My fuel in my filter was nasty, I changed it in the process. As cold as it is there bad gas could make it moe noticeable, when i was figuring mine out it was the worst on cold mornings and almost unnoticeable when warm in the afternoon. I would go to a thinner oil also as cold as it gets. Whts wrong with synthetic? __________________ 1997 4runner. stock for now just got it 1999 z71, intake ,285bfgs,with ford keys,hypertech 1974 baja bug 2110cc dual weber 40s,rancho tranny www.lubedealer.com/dbcox ZO#1568374 Click for free catalog:https://www.amsoil.com/AmsoilLogin/L...x?type=catalog

12-03-2008, 02:50 PM	#24 (permalink)
toyota4x4907 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 2,330	Its deff the PS pump. I opened the hood, started it up, jumped out and got by the engine as soon as it made the noise. I saw the steering rod (?) jerk (from the firewall to the...uh..pitman arm?) and the noise came from the PS pump. Now..any idea what could be happening? PS pump going out? Cold PS fluid? Am I just being paranoid? __________________ '95 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|130K miles\|ISR\| 2" BL\| 31x10.5 \| CompuStar Auto-start\| two 170mm LightForce\|anti-sway bars removed f/r\|Warn manual hubs\|ADD bypassed\|Diff breather extensions\|XLPerformance muffler '88 4runner\|22re\|5spd\|206K miles\|Sold '93 single cab\|22re\|5spd\|150K miles\|Sold\| Pro IFS

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