84YotaBuck

I finally got my engine back together. New rings/rod bearings and running a hone through the cylinders. When I pulled the pistons, every single top ring was broken. There was barely any ridge at the top of the cylinder and only one piston came out with some difficulty, so don't know why the rings were broken, would account for my bad compression though. Went with some cast iron rings this time, the machinist I use recommended those because they seal quicker/better, but don't have the longevity. So far everything looks good, have about 200 on the clock, no smoke, minimal blowby at idle and a slight vacuum when off idle, and a noticable improvement in power. Keepin my fingers crossed.

PismoJoe

What's up train, sorry I haven't been following this thread.

My 22re runs great, but has a slight miss that I can't figure out. Non-related to ring sealing, I only noticed mabe 1/4 qt burned in first 500mi, now I have about 3k on the engine, and have not lost any oil. No blue smoke or anything. Engnbldr FTW!!!

Trainwreckinseattle

What would be super awesome is some exact information. Boy it would be nice to have the person who did your engine machining post up exacty what he did.

Just saying yaaa mine worked gets all of those with problems nowhere.

Congrats on yours working though !!!

Trainwreckinseattle

Broken rings can be caused by many things. Detonation, incorrect ring gap, improper ring landing fitment, etc.

I'm disinclined to think your broken rings are to be blamed on the Rock rings, but without seeing everything first hand I can't be 100% sure.

Good luck with the cast rings.

sinneDBTB

could you elaborate on this bon ami technique?

skypilot

iTrader: (1)

That was a trick back in the day to get clyinders to seal up by breaking through the glaze between the ring and the clyinder wall. The idea was to get the rings to seat up again if something was between them and the wall. It was something akin to breakingdown an engine andpolishing the bores "the lazy way". it does work though from time to time.

Obvisously you never did this to a racing engine unless you liked piston slap.

redwolf3

Thought I would chime in here as well, as I appear to have the same problem as some of you.

Before I go any further, I want to say that, much like Trainwreck, I do NOT believe that my problems in any way reflect poorly on Ted (Engnbldr) or even Rock Auto and their rings. Simply posting my observations.

So, here's what happened to me: About 2 years ago I tore down my engine for a rebuild. Engine was running ok, but puking oil out of every orifice, and the timing chain guide had broken. I purchased a full Engnbldr rebuild kit as well as a new RV Head + Cam. I had the engine rebuilt buy a local, VERY reputable speed shop. Everything went back together with a couple of mistakes on my part, and a couple of minor problems (one of these come up later).

Once back together, I did the normal break-in: 20 to 30 minutes of engine revving at 2500 to seat the cam. This was done with Valvoline 10w40 and Comp Cams Break-In Oil Additive. After this, I took it out on the road and did about 8 to 10 cycles in 3rd gear, going from about 1600 RPM up to about 3000 RPM at 3/4 throttle, then letting it compression brake back down, and doing it over and over again. Once this was done, I drove it normally until 50 miles when I dumped the first oil. I then refilled with Valvoline 10w40 again, and continued the break-in process. This time, I started driving the vehicle the way I "normally" drive, keeping it under 3500 rpm in general. Engine felt a little tight, but was running well.

At 200 miles, I changed the oil again, and continued, and one more time at 500 miles. As I put more miles on it, I slowly increased the amount of throttle and RPM I put into the engine. Once I hit about 1,000 to 1,200 miles, I had hit about 5k RPM and the engine seemed to be running nicely.

From that point forward, I was driving it what I would consider "hard", but the engine was running GREAT. Tons of power, no noticeable noises, etc. I did this up to 3k where I did another oil change. This time, due to the winter weather, I opted to swap out to Castrol GTX 10w30, having had good luck with Castrol in the past. At this point, I had lost a quart of oil in the last 2k miles.

After another 1,000 miles, I decided to check the oil level, and noticed it was barely registering on the dip stick. I put a little over a quart of oil in, and kept driving. At 500 miles I checked it again and it looked about 1/2 a quart low again. This whole time, the engine was still running great. I was driving "differently", spending a lot of time on the freeway, in 4th gear... often times running consistently around 3200 to 3400 RPM. Engine oil consumption has settled out now at around 1 quart every 1,000 miles or so. That's when I started searching and found this thread.

I went through and did compression tests, etc, and here's what I found: 3 of the 4 cylinders had Cold compression of 160 PSI, the 4th had cold compression of 175 PSI. Now, here's where it gets interesting. When I installed my engine, I had a problem where one of my top piston rings cracked before I could get it installed. I got a replacement from Engngldr, but this replacement looked noticeably different then the other rings I had received. I couldn't say if it was still chrome, or Cast Iron, or what. What's interesting though is that the one cylinder that has higher compression is the cylinder with the "different" top ring.

I did some further research and called the shop that did my machine work. I basically asked what they would have machined my block to if I didn't specify anything special, and they indicated they would have done it for Cast Iron Rings. I asked if they would have machined different for Chrome, and the answer was "Yes, but why would you run Chrome rings, those are usually only run in REALLY dirty environments". I followed up by asking if they thought it would be worth it to do a tear down and re-hone of the engine to get the rings to seat. They indicated that they would not, and that 1 quart every 1,000 miles isn't really all that bad.

They also pointed out an interesting thing I hadn't thought about: In the last 3 to 4 years, most "Automotive" grade oil has changed. CAFE Standards have changed the make-up of the oil, removing a lot of the minerals and additives that used to be in automotive oil. They suggested running a good quality diesel Oil (Rotella / Delo / Delvac) in the engine for 3 to 6k miles and see if it helps the rings seat any. They indicated that these oils still have a lot of the minerals and additives that the older automotive oils had. They also said they would steer away from the more modern Automotive Oils such as Castrol as they are much higher detergent oils now then they used to be.

So, I just did a swap out of Delo 400 15w40 into the engine today, and we'll see how it goes. I'm also trying to drive it lower in the RPM range in the hopes that I can get the rings to finish seating.

The consensus I have received is "You aren't burning that much oil, most would be happy with what you are burning". While this is true, I don't like the idea of having to carry a quart or two of oil with me every where I go. I've never had to do it before, and don't like the idea of having to do it.

Really long post, but just thought I'd share my experience. As I say, I firmly believe that this is due to me not realizing the differences of the parts I had received, and their affect on my rebuild. All part of the learning experience I guess.

Trainwreckinseattle

First I would like to say I'm sorry to hear that you're having problems.


You wrote a lot. Thank you, I will try to answer, or give my thoughts on what you wrote.

1: Your break in seems normal.

2: Your oil choices seem normal.

3: These Rock rings seem to have issue (IF they are going to) at 1000-1500 miles. When you actually see oil consumption. Your experience seems very much in line whith my experiences and others.

4: Cast rings are ok. Moly came in these engines from the factory. Chrome and moly are a little odd, I don't know why Rock uses them. No other company or reboxer I have run across sells anything like them that I have seen.

5A: 1 Quart per 1,000 is NOT acceptable in my book. Any attempt to say differnt by a shop is a shop trying to not warrany work, or deal with a problem.
5B: Keep in mind you purchased your own parts, there "seems" be an issue with these parts and your machine shop isn't to blame.
5C: I have used Hastings brand Moly rings (pn 2M4216) Hastings std. Cast rings (4216) EPWI rebox moly rings moly, Mahle (Fmrly Perfect Circle) all with no failures. knock on wood.
5D: I fixed most of my customers motors by pulling the entire motor. leaving the intake, and exhaust attatched to the head and pulling the assembly with an engine hoist. While leaving the block on an engine stand. I then pulled the pistons and rods. Honed the block with a ball hone (making sure to protect the crank). Cleaned the crank case, scraped and cleaned all surfaces. Installed Hastings CAST 4216 Rings and reassembled. I have had NO problems with any of those motors. Zero oil consumption.

All of my production motors now recieve Hastings moly 2M4216 rings or NPR moly ring packs depending on the engine configuration I build. I have had zero issues with these motors as well.

6A: I tried Delo to fix the oil consumption. I found it to not work. I tried multiple different oils when I was testing honing processes. Nothing seemed to stop an engine with oil consumption and nothing seemed to stop an engine from having oil consumption problems.
6B: I also have used all kinds of oils with the rings I now use. I might add customers I sell engines to use all kinds of different brands. All of them have had zero issue. I regularly use WalMart house brand 10W-40.

It is MY belief oil is not an issue. Nor is cylinder wall oiling durring installation. I now use a light coat of WD-40. I still would NOT recommend using any type of synthetic.


Personally unless it would cause great heardship I would pull the engine and either fully tear it down and hone, or clean and rehone like I discribed. A full disassembly would be recommended.


Also, I would contact Engnbldr directly with a call or through e-mail and inform them of your experience. Ted has said a few times that he has "never heard" of any issues with these rings.

Trainwreckinseattle

I would never recommend Bon Ami.

redwolf3

Thanks for your follow-up. A couple of notes:

5A: I agree with this point... in my opinion, more than 1/2 a quart every 5k is unacceptable, but then I'm a prude when it comes to oil consumption.

I do disagree that the shop is trying to "cover themselves". The shop in question was not at fault, they didn't have the proper information to do the job properly, so they are at no "fault" or risk of having to do the work over again. That said, I have discussed this issue with 2 other local and reputable shops about the same issue and all of them have said more or less the same thing. I'm not saying that they can't be wrong, but a lot of these are shops that do nothing but build engines, and have a good reputation, so I trust what they are telling me.

I have contacted Engnbldr about my experiences and let him know what is going on. The biggest thing I find interesting is still the single cylinder with a different top ring. This seems to point to what you are indicating, which is that these rings require something "special". It may just be that had I told my shop "Machine them for Chrome Rings" everything would have been fine, its hard for me to say since I didn't do that.

I also wonder if lack of complaints has something to do with the intended use of engines. I would guess that a large portion of "Home" users buying these products are building off-road or performance trucks. In these situations, higher oil consumption is not unexpected due to the large amount of time spent at idle and low RPM, and the pain that the engines go through in these situations. I know that if I wasn't driving my truck 500 miles a week, I probably wouldn't have noticed or even thought about the oil consumption.

I most likely will be pulling the engine to do a rebuild, but I'm a perfectionist with limited time. It took me almost a year to rebuild the engine the first time, so to do a "simple" rebuild will probably mean 2 to 4 weeks of downtime for my vehicle. Since I plan on doing some off-roading this summer with a friend leaving the country, I will probably run the engine through the summer season, and then plan on pulling and rebuilding again in the Fall / Winter.

Trainwreckinseattle

I find it interesting yet very normal how people react in these situations.

You discover you have a problem, talked with the machine shop, and he said the consumption was "normal" It would seem you didn't feel that answer was satisfactory and searched out information.

Yet you say you "trust what they are telling me"


Some people over-react some people under-react. I think somewhere in the middle is best. Your gut is telling you a new motor shouldn't consume much if any oil. I'm not saying to blame anyone. I'm simply saying that most shops will tell you it's ok. When we both know if it was their personal truck they would think and say otherwise. This is all human nature on both sides of the story.

Your second comment is a good point. When I had my problem the first customers to raise questions were people who drove a lot of miles a week. Combine seldom used or low mileage driven trucks due to offroad use with "folk lore" about oil consumption being normal for a new motor, ignorance, wanting to "believe" the shop or parts supplier, or laziness, and I can see how many many people never get around to knowing they have a problem, asking questions, or resolving the problem.

I called a few of my customers, and let them know what I was finding. A couple of them hadn't noticed anything wrong or thought they had done something wrong durring install or break-in and had never intended to notify me because they "trusted my work"


All we can do is educated others and learn for ourselves. That's all I'm trying to do anywho.

The best of luck, and Thank you.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey TWISeattle! Long time, ...... LOTS HAS HAPPENED! lol.

I'm not certain whether I'm going to dig in to the bottom end, just yet, and it doesn't APPEAR that I need to. .....Unlesssssssss, hahaha.. UNLESS my latest issue of "TICKING" in a very strange way isn't solved by my upcoming ruling out of everything I can on the top end..... at which point, I WILL be tearing it down and I'll let you know what I find.

PROBLEM is, ....Rock seems to be what I remember the Machinist that did my motor gave back to me.....and though he did NOT seem to get it from engnbldr, one of his suppliers is rock, because all the gaskets he didn't use, etc., that were left in a cardboard insert that had the "ROCK/ROCK/ROCK" typing all over it, lol. So, I'm assuming that's what he used for the whole kit.

However, what you might not know is my machinist is A KNOB! lol. He screwed up the timing cover, the CAM grind on my orig. CAM that he put back in(after I asked him to do a 261 w/street rv head......but was talked out of by him), and it appears that HE MIGHT have even poorly spec'd out/set up my rocker assembly(including re-using the adjusters at 257K... that normal? I'm not sure, so I'll leave that one to you). Not meaning to get off topic, and I'm getting to that.

Considering I'm FAIRLY SURE that Rock Kit was used;

1. At around 1200 Miles, my rings started to seat(PRETTY Sure, as my compression finally evened out and it got PRETTY HOT under the hood for around 200 Miles, maybe more, and then cooled down and has stayed there, since.

2. Other than the MULTIPLE leaks I had from the get go due to his bad timing cover install, bad rear main that he'd tweaked... I don't seem to be either burning nor using any noticeable oil, now being up to 3500 Miles with this motor.

3. I will be doing another compression test, very soon(within a week, hopefully), and I will post the results. I would have to go back into my build thread, but I'm pretty sure my last numbers, around 2000K Miles, were around 168, 170, 172, 170.

This was a good reminder to me that I need to keep a good eye on my compression as I HOPE to come to an end of the 'YEAR OF MADNESS' caused by my machinist/builder. Especially since my "TICK" could be rod bearing or wrist pin slap(not likely, according to Tod and Ted, ...but not ruled out COMPLTELY).

Hope you're doing well and I promise to post any more 'changes' that I notice. For now, my oil looks good, consumption if any is negligible and they seemed to have seated at around 1200-1500 Miles.(Can't know if they're Chrome or not, and asking the machinist ANYTHING up to now has proved fruitless... sorry)

PS> I think most will say that I've been VERY fair to this machinist... who, really, in the end, told me "yeah, so?" Not to mention he screwed up QUITE a few things which caused me tons of time and money(unless I wanted to take it out and bring it to him?)...and that he ALWAYS claimed "Oh, yeah, I seem to remember that differently"... But I hear what you're saying about "too much" or "Not enough" in that last post. I think I was "NOT ENOUGH", until I really started to learn the semantics of these things. YES< they are REALLY bullet proof and dependable..... IF EVERYTHING is done right! ...Ok, if "at least MOST OF IT IS DONE RIGHT" Lol.

engnbldr

>>>*I don't get over to the websites much, too busy trying to keep track of my 75 year old brother with two steel legs off somewhere on the danged Massey Ferguson tractor..(yea, I know, two steel legs and a stick shift tractor)...*LOL**...Fun to watch that, he stands up to shift gears.

Anyway. Rings. We used to supply 2m4216 Hastings, which is a Moly lap top ring. In fact, Trainwreck sent me a set of them to check which I did and..well..I could have put them back in????

But I was wrong, our brand switched to an OEM design as a supplier, they do look a tad different than that company's house brand, at least to me. Normal there, we see that all the time with packaged products, designed to look different to establish company identity.

Where I was wrong is that they ARE a chrome top ring (first time I have been wrong about anything since 1942.....)

+++

There is NO real trick to honing bores, any machine shop can do it. On a very good condition bore grabbing a flex hone and breaking the glaze will work just fine, one I know for sure having done exactly that at least a few times in the last 50 years now.

One thing to look out for is that FSM error that has been floating around for years, it calls for .023" to .032" for the 2nd ring which any engine rebuilder would instantly know is wrong. What they meant is .23MM to .32MM which is roughly .009" to 012". When I set up a block I always used .0005" over minimum piston/bore since out in the field there are different levels of skill and we did a lot of packages for DIY builders.

A bit of room for error does not hurt a thing.

+++

Cute story: Nice young fellow called me up. "I just built YOUR engine!" He says. (I did the machine work for him)

Now I have been around long enough to know when something becomes MINE again, there is a problem.

"I can't break it in." He says.

"Why not?" I ask.

"It runs, then it stops in just a few minutes."

We chatted, getting nowhere, so I got in my car and drove over there. He started it up, it sounded like it didn't want to, trying to run backwards but finally she fires..

"Hold it!" I said.

I checked the distributer, WAY off advanced. I rolled it back, started her up, set the timing and she purred like a kitten. It was getting so hot the engine was actually locking up. But these are tough little things, that engine ran fine after.

+++

Some of our customers own a timing light, but not all of them. Some of them even owned torque wrenches of which roughly...all of them are wrong, having not been calibrated..ever. I used to reset mine every Monday morning, and once a month or so it needed a slight adjustment.

Fastener tech is another article, I will write that one of these days. The errors in clamping forces approach 100%, sometimes this old man wonders how they ever run at all. Even the factories had problems with that, which is why so many use TTY bolts now.

At .0005" over the minimum piston to bore clearence we found end gap specs to be one to just under two thousandths over specs which is fine. On a standard bore we have gone as much as .010" over specs, also fine although that is getting to the edge of things. End gaps don't worry me much unless too snug, then they can butt when things heat up and the cylinder is nearly instantly all done. The real concern is ring to wall tensile. For example, a .020" ring will run in a .040" over bore, and even show pretty good compression. But it will consume oil.

Now all the concern about "honing" techniques? It's not rocket science. A boring bar leaves fractured metal which we wish to remove, so the block is cut undersize by about .0025" and honed to final size in two stages. The first stage is a coarse hone, since it needs to cut rapidly. The final stage is a fine hone, some folks use the tool to establish the finish at higher pressure, I drop the load and buff in the plateau. Different techniques, same result.

With diamond it's different but the result is the same. Diamond does not leave fractured metal, and the machinist must know what he/she is doing to create that desired underlying pattern with a plateau finish. Machinists that hone all the way using one grit leave the builder no margin for error at breakin. Boring/honing with diamonds means coarse step to a fine step.

Diamond tooling is not cheap and it wears out also, but diamond is also faster and a rebore can be done with just one expensive machine, rather than two of them. It's actually very easy to get things right with good equipment.

All there is to it.

Now on install one needs to take a look, nearly ALL rings will have a logo on the flat portion. The logo or if just a dimple will face upwards. Note the top ring land on the 85 and up engines is shallower so location is obvious.

At this point look to see if there is a good 45° bevel at the top of the bore, nice and smooth. If it's not there, odds are high you will chip the lower edge of the ring without realizing it and then be unhappy when she uses oil. Or fold up one of the wiper rings and then wonder why she is so tight?

A lot of top rings are square cut anyway, suppliers do that because one might be amazed at what happens in the field. The second ring's job is to distribute oil and wipe off excess, plus some backup for the top compression ring, so it has to be beveled or notched. The oil screen ring feeds lube, the top wiper of the oil ring drags down excess while the bottom one tries to hold it up there. That oil screen ring must be correct, it is what also holds tensile to the wipers.

Also remember there are different kinds of oil screen tensile rings, NONE of them are designed to overlap at the ends. So many folks do try to overlap the ends of the inner screen that some companies put little plastic tabs in there to keep them from doing that.

Overlap one or end up with a standard oil screen ring on an overbored engine? That is called an oil pump.

With some cast rings there is a small ledge cut into the upper top, that is called a "ridge dodger" because with new bearings and rings on a worn bore, any ridge will break the top rings once the engine heats up.

I can go on for a few hours about rings, I do know a tiny bit about them but I just wanted to mention my error on the metalurgy earlier in this thread.

Sorry for confusing some of you good folks.....*EB

Trainwreckinseattle

Thanks for your imput Ted.

You have said this now twice, I sent you a sample to look at. Rings are VERY distinctive looking. More to the point at that time I had only Rock rings in my shop. What I sent you were Rock rings. Every box of rings I recieved from Rock were all alike. I experienced no variations or repackageing.

Rock Rings are imprinted with "Rock" on the rings themselves.



Other than that I agree with you. All the Rock rings I pulled out of the engines "looked" to have no noticable issues.


A question if I could, does Engnbldr assemble long blocks anymore? IF so do you use Rock? And finally Can I purchase one if they are assembled with Rock rings?

Oatmeal

I know this is a pretty old thread but, just wanted to share my experiences.
I just put together my '85 22RE using one of Ted's engine kits.....bored .040 over with one of his 261C cams.

It runs really great, has plenty of low/midrange torque (can pull a certain hill, that required a downshift from fifth to fourth, in fifth with the A/C on now!) gets great mileage but, I too have an oil consumption problem.

I brought the rings to my machinist so, that the block could be honed accordingly.....they have done quite a bit of work for me before and I trust their work.

I am pretty anal when it comes to doing things and followed my FSM to the letter.....ring gaps were checked (light file on the top rings because they were just a hair tighter than minimum spec) and staggered to spec, new head bolts, all injectors sent out for cleaning/balancing.....
It goes through a quart of oil in less than 1,000 miles.......got about 5,000 miles and three oil changes on it so far.

Here's the interesting thing.
This same motor had been rebuilt once before by a reputable machine shop using the same engine kit .020 (not purcahsed from Ted, as far as I know anyway) and it too had oil consumption issues.

Not really related but, relevant......
My GF was driving my '96 Jeep Cherokee, lost the fan belt and ran it without the water pump for about a mile......burned a whole in the number one piston and warped the head.

I did an in the vehicle rebuild.....mic'd the bores and crank and everything was still in spec.
Did a hone (cheapo three stone auto parts house brand) to break the glaze put in new std size pistons (Sealed Power) and rings (Hastings) rebuilt head, timing chain, bearings........and this thing does not use a single drop of oil between oil changes (and sometimes I let it go longer than it should) going on a year and a half now!

So, is it ring quality/brand?

When I was looking for places to do machine work (the guys I used specialized in air cooled VWs.....didn't realize they did Toyotas as well). I talked to one shop owner that didn't think too highly of the brand of rings I was using and said he would only use Hastings brand....hmm.

As for the Bon Ami trick....
I did a lot of internet research and it turns out, when Chevrolet came out with their "new" 283 they were having ring seating issues and they sent out service bulletins to their dealers to use Bon Ami to seat the rings.
There are a ton of testimonials of people doing this with no ill effects what so ever.
I even read somewhere (while searching) IIRC that Total Seal(?) has a dry ring seating powder that's added at assembly to help their rings seat better.

I'll give it a few more thousand miles but, the Bon Ami thing isn't out of the question for me....can't a afford another tear down as this is my daily driver/work vehicle.

Anyway, sorry for the longish post.

Hans

Capp

I know this thread is over a year old, but I'd like to take the time out to tell TW it was just what I needed to hear. I'm in the process of rebuilding my 22R, all the information on rings will help me tremendously.
Thanks
Capp

stevenb

just got done reading this entire subject matter on rock ring sealing.just got done pulling an engine apart yesterday and re-honing and ringing because of excessive oil consumption and black oil using rock chrome rings.i have built quite a few of these engines over the past few years,and have always used the same boring and honing techniques,but have been bitten twice recently by oil consumption,and unhappy customers.i,m going back to old school sealed power cast rings and normal honing techniques on my engines,just can,t stand doing these jobs over for free,and having unhappy customers.sometimes old school is the best way.

Flame Thrower

all this talk of ROCK rings and the problems some people have had with them...

i would not touch them with a ten foot pole. why not use OEM rings? last i checked, they last hundreds of thousands of miles. at least they ahve for me.

redwolf3

I had planned to post an update to this thread, but didn't want to resurrect a dead thread. Since someone else has brought this thread back from the dead, here it goes.

As some of you may have read, I was having the same issues posted in this thread after about 5k miles on my new rebuild. Engine ran great but was burning oil to the tune of about 1 quart every 1k miles.

About 3 months ago, I decided to do another check on the health of the engine while performing the engines 12k tune-up. As part of this health check, I decided to run another compression check, just for giggles. To my surprise, it appears that the other rings have finally sealed. I got a solid 190 psi across all 4 cylinders.

I understand that others have not had the same experiences, but I wanted to provide my feedback since it appears that my engine has finally sealed itself back up, as several others have told me it should.

I will note that I drive the poop out of my truck. It regularly sees 5k to 6k RPM on the highway, and I tend to be a bit heavy on the go pedal.

YMMV, but I wanted to provide my update to others on this thread.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey Trainwreck Hope you're well, mang

Just wanted to report a lil .........

I had the Rock Rings, as I mentioned before... The former builder of my original motor jacked it all up.... including the machining... So I can't be sure that the Rock Rings were a problem... But they did not, in fact, seat, even after 6500 miles. Partially... but never fully.

This last rebuild, I did most of the machining and rebuilt the entire thing, including machining all the main and rod journals,..... etc.

My NEW machinist, Phil, a great dude with 40 Years experience, basically showed me how it's done... And then, he ordered the rings he's used most often for a while... Hastings-USA.... They've been in around 9K now.... They seated in around 900 miles, ... and the motor doesn't leak a drop, nor consume ANYTHING..(not that the eye can see after 3000 miles, anyhow)...

Anyway, since this is back up... just curious if anyone like you or Ted have used Hastings-USA Rings