3.0 gets hot uphill only
08-27-2013, 05:40 AM
#22
I just re-read your first post. Must have read it too fast before. I was under the impression you were over-heating. A needles width above half??? Are you paranoid? That's normal! Especially going up a hill. Do the maintenance since you need it anyway, but your truck is doing what it should do up those hills. I wouldn't be concerned until the 3/4 mark.
08-27-2013, 06:30 AM
#23
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[QUOTE=Gamefreakgc;52111869]A 3.0 typically NEVER moves past the halfway mark. The fact that yours does means you've got an overheating issue. I can climb all the way up 8000 ft in the Sierras without it budging, and that's with 284k miles./QUOTE]
I may be highly paranoid. I hear so many head gasket failures due to heat. Some people say the 3.0 Needle should stay put though.
I may be highly paranoid. I hear so many head gasket failures due to heat. Some people say the 3.0 Needle should stay put though.
08-27-2013, 06:49 AM
#24
The gauge has a normal range for a reason. The temp will move around a bit under various loads/conditions. Whether its always noticeable on the gauge is another question. Sensors, gauges and wiring resistance can vary from vehicle to vehicle. Just know whats normal for your truck, and then you will know when there is a problem. But again, I wouldn't be the slightest bit concerned with a needles width above the halfway point.
08-27-2013, 11:45 AM
#26
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We obviously have a wide range of opinions on this forum 
I didn't think about the transmission cooling system, but if you're revving it pretty high with OD off, that would increase fluid flow and the temp would drop. If this is not the case, I still err on the side that there is a blockage and/or bad fluids. Certainly though, changing fluids will extend the life of your engine and transmission.
Fluid changes are the easiest and more cost-effective way to prevent more serious problems like head gaskets, transmission failures, engine damage, etc. They really are regular maintenance items so you should have them done (or do it yourself, it's easy) to help extend the life of your truck/4Runner.
Personally, I've been diligent about changing every fluid since I got my truck. With 284k miles, I've never had any major issues beyond an axle leak (original head gasket!) and I credit that to always having a well-maintained vehicle. I'm due for a brake fluid flush, coming up on 2 years and it's turning black again.
I didn't think about the transmission cooling system, but if you're revving it pretty high with OD off, that would increase fluid flow and the temp would drop. If this is not the case, I still err on the side that there is a blockage and/or bad fluids. Certainly though, changing fluids will extend the life of your engine and transmission.
Fluid changes are the easiest and more cost-effective way to prevent more serious problems like head gaskets, transmission failures, engine damage, etc. They really are regular maintenance items so you should have them done (or do it yourself, it's easy) to help extend the life of your truck/4Runner.
Personally, I've been diligent about changing every fluid since I got my truck. With 284k miles, I've never had any major issues beyond an axle leak (original head gasket!) and I credit that to always having a well-maintained vehicle. I'm due for a brake fluid flush, coming up on 2 years and it's turning black again.
08-27-2013, 12:01 PM
#27
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This is from when I just hit 150k. As you can see, the thick top of my temp gauge needle hits/abuts the post on the gauge:
(Yes at idle my oil pressure does read low when parked at idle and hot -- I think it's a combo of my gauge sender unit getting old [at $60 replacing it isn't a priority for a little more accuracy] and running high viscosity synthetic. Hot and at highway cruising speeds I read at the left most black bar, with midpoint if on the gas and accelerating... RPMs are at ~1k due to A/C being on and in park.)
Here's the external oil cooler thread I referenced: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/show...126953&page=21
It discusses external cooler install and has some more info on my thoughts summed up below.
I am still not convinced that there isn't a need for minimum operating temperature on the tranny. If running a synthetic fluid, I think it's less important in terms of achieving necessary viscosity (hotter fluids are more viscous to a point) but a synthetic will also probably not bypass through the flow bypass external coolers to properly heat up like a non-synthetic fluid would... (or at least that's what I'm thinking.)
So I'm torn.
I do know that I'm skeptical of installing one of those temp diverter units that doesn't allow coolant into tranny cooler/forces coolant back ot the tranny until it reaches 180* or so. In the event of failure (and such a diverter adds another point of failure), it could be pretty catastrophic.
But, higher tranny temps do allow any condensation to vaporize and escape the tranny through the breather holes that too low of a temp won't allow. Too much accumulated condensation in ATF and you could have problems w/ stuff getting ruined (especially in humid climates) -- even w/o coolant/the pink slush of radiator fluid. I suppose if you flush annually, it's less of an issue, but could get expensive at ~$180 to flush the whole tranny w/ Amsoil ATF, just the cost of the ATF... Regular ATF is cheaper but if your tranny gets hot, it's more likely to fail and ruin your tranny, so...
Not yet sure what I'm doing here, but I am thinking I'm going with a B&M or LPD cooler/stacked plate cooler in place of factory (tranny soft hoses are getting near failure anyway due to age so might as well get them with the B&M kit for free) and will be doing a full flush. Just need to decide on my setup. (My radiator was replaced about 2 years ago by the way so chance of pink slush is much reduced...).
*This tranny fluid temp discussion is in regards whether to bypass or not bypass the radiator to avoid pink slush... Not bypassing radiator ensures a consistent temperature for tranny fluid at all times and under all conditions...
(Yes at idle my oil pressure does read low when parked at idle and hot -- I think it's a combo of my gauge sender unit getting old [at $60 replacing it isn't a priority for a little more accuracy] and running high viscosity synthetic. Hot and at highway cruising speeds I read at the left most black bar, with midpoint if on the gas and accelerating... RPMs are at ~1k due to A/C being on and in park.)
Here's the external oil cooler thread I referenced: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/show...126953&page=21
It discusses external cooler install and has some more info on my thoughts summed up below.
I am still not convinced that there isn't a need for minimum operating temperature on the tranny. If running a synthetic fluid, I think it's less important in terms of achieving necessary viscosity (hotter fluids are more viscous to a point) but a synthetic will also probably not bypass through the flow bypass external coolers to properly heat up like a non-synthetic fluid would... (or at least that's what I'm thinking.)
So I'm torn.
I do know that I'm skeptical of installing one of those temp diverter units that doesn't allow coolant into tranny cooler/forces coolant back ot the tranny until it reaches 180* or so. In the event of failure (and such a diverter adds another point of failure), it could be pretty catastrophic.
But, higher tranny temps do allow any condensation to vaporize and escape the tranny through the breather holes that too low of a temp won't allow. Too much accumulated condensation in ATF and you could have problems w/ stuff getting ruined (especially in humid climates) -- even w/o coolant/the pink slush of radiator fluid. I suppose if you flush annually, it's less of an issue, but could get expensive at ~$180 to flush the whole tranny w/ Amsoil ATF, just the cost of the ATF... Regular ATF is cheaper but if your tranny gets hot, it's more likely to fail and ruin your tranny, so...
Not yet sure what I'm doing here, but I am thinking I'm going with a B&M or LPD cooler/stacked plate cooler in place of factory (tranny soft hoses are getting near failure anyway due to age so might as well get them with the B&M kit for free) and will be doing a full flush. Just need to decide on my setup. (My radiator was replaced about 2 years ago by the way so chance of pink slush is much reduced...).
*This tranny fluid temp discussion is in regards whether to bypass or not bypass the radiator to avoid pink slush... Not bypassing radiator ensures a consistent temperature for tranny fluid at all times and under all conditions...
Last edited by RSR; 08-27-2013 at 12:17 PM.
08-27-2013, 12:50 PM
#28
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The transmission idea sounds cool and makes sense but it seems like Toyota at least had enough sense to make their truck drive up a highway pass without towing anything at a safe temperature by their last 3VZE model year in 1995. It sounds like a lot of work to make the truck just highway driveable.
08-27-2013, 02:21 PM
#29
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I'm with j2the-e on this; a needle's width above the middle is not overheating. Without some other indication of a problem, primarily a loss of coolant due to steam blowing out of the pressure cap, there's really nothing to worry about. Here's what happens in the cooling system as the engine works harder and generates more heat. And, btw, you can bet all of this is very well known to the Toyota engineers and was an intentional part of their design.
- First, the engine starts warming up the coolant in the block. Nothing is circulating in the radiator because the thermostat is closed. This is the "warmup" phase. The designers want the engine to get out of this phase as fast as possible, because cold oil doesn't lubricate well, cold fuel doesn't vaporize well, and a cold engine doesn't meet emission standards very well - not to mention that your heater doesn't work well, either.
- At a coolant temperature of about 180 degF, the thermostat begins to open, allowing coolant to flow through the radiator.
- As the heat output of the engine continues to increase, the thermostat opens further, allowing more coolant flow and keeping its temperature near 180. This is the phase where most normal, everyday driving takes place, and is why you see the temperature needle prettty much stuck around the middle of the gauge. The thermostat is providing a simple form of "closed loop" temperature regulation, keeping the coolant temperature relatively constant. I say "relatively" because the thermostat is a very simple device, and cannot control the temperature all that closely or accurately.
- Eventually, as you work the engine harder, like on a long hill, the thermostat goes wide open and the coolant temperature starts to rise again. At this point, the cooling system is no longer running "closed loop". Note, this is not bad - yet! Assuming the outside air temperature is about 80 deg, the radiator can get rid of roughly 10% more heat for every 10 degF rise in coolant temperature. This is a key part of the "reserve cooling capacity" of the system, and is factored into the design. How hot can it get before there's trouble? - Read on.
- Toyota specs a 14psi pressure cap on the radiator. That raises the boiling point of the coolant mixture to about 250 degF. They do that so that the system will operate with liquid coolant up to 250 deg, giving the engine about 40% more cooling capacity than if the coolant boiled at 212 degC, and about 70% more cooling capacity above the "normal" 180 deg thermostat temperature. If Toyota thought it was bad for the engine to be running with coolant temperatures above 212 or so, they wouldn't put a pressure cap on the radiator. They'd let the coolant boil as soon as possible to alert you that something is wrong, and make the gauge read "red" at about 200 degF.
- If the engine heat load continues to increase, eventually the coolant will hit 250 deg and start to boil. At that time steam will start blowing out of the pressure cap and you'll hopefully be aware of the situtation. You'll also see the temperature gauge very rapidly swing over into the red zone. At this point you still haven't damaged anything if you act immediately, but you'd best very quickly put the transmission in neutral, coast off the road, and run the engine at a fast idle to cool it down, because vaporized water (steam) doesn't cool the engine evenly, and the engine will start to develop hot spots. That's when damage occurs.
Oil, aluminum, and steel can take temperatures well in excess of 250 degF. That's why there's not much to worry about until you see steam.
- First, the engine starts warming up the coolant in the block. Nothing is circulating in the radiator because the thermostat is closed. This is the "warmup" phase. The designers want the engine to get out of this phase as fast as possible, because cold oil doesn't lubricate well, cold fuel doesn't vaporize well, and a cold engine doesn't meet emission standards very well - not to mention that your heater doesn't work well, either.
- At a coolant temperature of about 180 degF, the thermostat begins to open, allowing coolant to flow through the radiator.
- As the heat output of the engine continues to increase, the thermostat opens further, allowing more coolant flow and keeping its temperature near 180. This is the phase where most normal, everyday driving takes place, and is why you see the temperature needle prettty much stuck around the middle of the gauge. The thermostat is providing a simple form of "closed loop" temperature regulation, keeping the coolant temperature relatively constant. I say "relatively" because the thermostat is a very simple device, and cannot control the temperature all that closely or accurately.
- Eventually, as you work the engine harder, like on a long hill, the thermostat goes wide open and the coolant temperature starts to rise again. At this point, the cooling system is no longer running "closed loop". Note, this is not bad - yet! Assuming the outside air temperature is about 80 deg, the radiator can get rid of roughly 10% more heat for every 10 degF rise in coolant temperature. This is a key part of the "reserve cooling capacity" of the system, and is factored into the design. How hot can it get before there's trouble? - Read on.
- Toyota specs a 14psi pressure cap on the radiator. That raises the boiling point of the coolant mixture to about 250 degF. They do that so that the system will operate with liquid coolant up to 250 deg, giving the engine about 40% more cooling capacity than if the coolant boiled at 212 degC, and about 70% more cooling capacity above the "normal" 180 deg thermostat temperature. If Toyota thought it was bad for the engine to be running with coolant temperatures above 212 or so, they wouldn't put a pressure cap on the radiator. They'd let the coolant boil as soon as possible to alert you that something is wrong, and make the gauge read "red" at about 200 degF.
- If the engine heat load continues to increase, eventually the coolant will hit 250 deg and start to boil. At that time steam will start blowing out of the pressure cap and you'll hopefully be aware of the situtation. You'll also see the temperature gauge very rapidly swing over into the red zone. At this point you still haven't damaged anything if you act immediately, but you'd best very quickly put the transmission in neutral, coast off the road, and run the engine at a fast idle to cool it down, because vaporized water (steam) doesn't cool the engine evenly, and the engine will start to develop hot spots. That's when damage occurs.
Oil, aluminum, and steel can take temperatures well in excess of 250 degF. That's why there's not much to worry about until you see steam.
08-27-2013, 03:10 PM
#30
That's a flat-out lie. Engine coolants never lose any ability to transfer heat, regardless of how long(or how hard) they've been used. You replace them for other reasons. Namely pH imbalance, or rather, acidification.
That's not based on opinion. It's based on concrete knowledge of the chemistry involved.
The gauge has a normal range for a reason. The temp will move around a bit under various loads/conditions. Whether its always noticeable on the gauge is another question. Sensors, gauges and wiring resistance can vary from vehicle to vehicle. Just know whats normal for your truck, and then you will know when there is a problem. But again, I wouldn't be the slightest bit concerned with a needles width above the halfway point.
Way to go j2the-e!
08-27-2013, 06:03 PM
#31
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The transmission idea sounds cool and makes sense but it seems like Toyota at least had enough sense to make their truck drive up a highway pass without towing anything at a safe temperature by their last 3VZE model year in 1995. It sounds like a lot of work to make the truck just highway driveable.
That said, the temperature gauge as you described it is still within a safe temperature range. It's just showing that you're getting more heat than it's able to cool. Other's might be right too -- you may have some issue w/ coolant, immediately coming to mind is that you have too much coolant to water in the mixture running through your engine...
You asked why your temp gauge increased when it doesn't in other similarly severe circumstances. The tranny scenario makes the most sense to me.
Also bear in mind that the 4runner is much heavier than the truck that shares a same configuration on most everything except for rear suspension and body -- think it's probably equivalent to a 500lb load and at least a 250lb load in the bed of the truck (but other's can probably provide more accurate #s). Point being, it's equivalent to hauling/towing a light load...
Not sure of what all the other mods and your 4R's setup is, but adding all of that to your signature and/or sharing would help us to diagnose what's going on.
Last edited by RSR; 08-27-2013 at 06:08 PM.
08-27-2013, 06:07 PM
#32
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*Also wanted to note that thinking through the tranny temp scenario outlined -- it's a great case in point why anyone with autos adding extra weight with mods, planning to haul/tow often, and/or is putting on significantly bigger than stock tires should consider upping their axle ratios -- it'll cause the engine to spin at higher RPMs and tranny pump to push more fluid at all speeds and especially so at highway speeds (when in OD and when under extra load tranny is most likely to overheat) ensuring that enough fluid is flowing through the tranny to appropriately cool it. All that in addition to significantly more seat of pants power below 60mph. (And also why lowering axle ratios on these trucks w/ autos seeking slightly better MPGs on the highway is likely to be a fools errand.)
Last edited by RSR; 08-27-2013 at 06:11 PM.
08-28-2013, 02:59 PM
#33
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You have good gear for tire on that auto.
Auto trans cooler should be a high priority if you often hill or offroad.
You can get a nice one at the junkyards from the HD trucks, You can even take the time mounting it and running hardline right up to the old trans lines, Then just quick change of hose over.
Fan clutch could be getting weak.
Auto trans cooler should be a high priority if you often hill or offroad.
You can get a nice one at the junkyards from the HD trucks, You can even take the time mounting it and running hardline right up to the old trans lines, Then just quick change of hose over.
Fan clutch could be getting weak.
08-28-2013, 05:39 PM
#34
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Fan clutch could be getting weak.
08-28-2013, 05:47 PM
#35
This is from when I just hit 150k. As you can see, the thick top of my temp gauge needle hits/abuts the post on the gauge:
(Yes at idle my oil pressure does read low when parked at idle and hot -- I think it's a combo of my gauge sender unit getting old [at $60 replacing it isn't a priority for a little more accuracy] and running high viscosity synthetic. Hot and at highway cruising speeds I read at the left most black bar, with midpoint if on the gas and accelerating... RPMs are at ~1k due to A/C being on and in park.)
Here's the external oil cooler thread I referenced: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/show...126953&page=21
It discusses external cooler install and has some more info on my thoughts summed up below.
I am still not convinced that there isn't a need for minimum operating temperature on the tranny. If running a synthetic fluid, I think it's less important in terms of achieving necessary viscosity (hotter fluids are more viscous to a point) but a synthetic will also probably not bypass through the flow bypass external coolers to properly heat up like a non-synthetic fluid would... (or at least that's what I'm thinking.)
So I'm torn.
I do know that I'm skeptical of installing one of those temp diverter units that doesn't allow coolant into tranny cooler/forces coolant back ot the tranny until it reaches 180* or so. In the event of failure (and such a diverter adds another point of failure), it could be pretty catastrophic.
But, higher tranny temps do allow any condensation to vaporize and escape the tranny through the breather holes that too low of a temp won't allow. Too much accumulated condensation in ATF and you could have problems w/ stuff getting ruined (especially in humid climates) -- even w/o coolant/the pink slush of radiator fluid. I suppose if you flush annually, it's less of an issue, but could get expensive at ~$180 to flush the whole tranny w/ Amsoil ATF, just the cost of the ATF... Regular ATF is cheaper but if your tranny gets hot, it's more likely to fail and ruin your tranny, so...
Not yet sure what I'm doing here, but I am thinking I'm going with a B&M or LPD cooler/stacked plate cooler in place of factory (tranny soft hoses are getting near failure anyway due to age so might as well get them with the B&M kit for free) and will be doing a full flush. Just need to decide on my setup. (My radiator was replaced about 2 years ago by the way so chance of pink slush is much reduced...).
*This tranny fluid temp discussion is in regards whether to bypass or not bypass the radiator to avoid pink slush... Not bypassing radiator ensures a consistent temperature for tranny fluid at all times and under all conditions...
(Yes at idle my oil pressure does read low when parked at idle and hot -- I think it's a combo of my gauge sender unit getting old [at $60 replacing it isn't a priority for a little more accuracy] and running high viscosity synthetic. Hot and at highway cruising speeds I read at the left most black bar, with midpoint if on the gas and accelerating... RPMs are at ~1k due to A/C being on and in park.)
Here's the external oil cooler thread I referenced: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/show...126953&page=21
It discusses external cooler install and has some more info on my thoughts summed up below.
I am still not convinced that there isn't a need for minimum operating temperature on the tranny. If running a synthetic fluid, I think it's less important in terms of achieving necessary viscosity (hotter fluids are more viscous to a point) but a synthetic will also probably not bypass through the flow bypass external coolers to properly heat up like a non-synthetic fluid would... (or at least that's what I'm thinking.)
So I'm torn.
I do know that I'm skeptical of installing one of those temp diverter units that doesn't allow coolant into tranny cooler/forces coolant back ot the tranny until it reaches 180* or so. In the event of failure (and such a diverter adds another point of failure), it could be pretty catastrophic.
But, higher tranny temps do allow any condensation to vaporize and escape the tranny through the breather holes that too low of a temp won't allow. Too much accumulated condensation in ATF and you could have problems w/ stuff getting ruined (especially in humid climates) -- even w/o coolant/the pink slush of radiator fluid. I suppose if you flush annually, it's less of an issue, but could get expensive at ~$180 to flush the whole tranny w/ Amsoil ATF, just the cost of the ATF... Regular ATF is cheaper but if your tranny gets hot, it's more likely to fail and ruin your tranny, so...
Not yet sure what I'm doing here, but I am thinking I'm going with a B&M or LPD cooler/stacked plate cooler in place of factory (tranny soft hoses are getting near failure anyway due to age so might as well get them with the B&M kit for free) and will be doing a full flush. Just need to decide on my setup. (My radiator was replaced about 2 years ago by the way so chance of pink slush is much reduced...).
*This tranny fluid temp discussion is in regards whether to bypass or not bypass the radiator to avoid pink slush... Not bypassing radiator ensures a consistent temperature for tranny fluid at all times and under all conditions...
to me everything looks fine,,,,BUT....idle maybe a little to high,,,,and oil pressure looks a little low for it being warmed up,,all though i don't have one,,,lol ,,temp looks fine......
08-28-2013, 05:54 PM
#36
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to me everything looks fine,,,,BUT....idle maybe a little to high,,,,and oil pressure looks a little low for it being warmed up,,all though i don't have one,,,lol ,,temp looks fine......
Last edited by ThatGuy1295; 08-28-2013 at 05:56 PM.
08-28-2013, 11:42 PM
#37
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haha, ↑ 
Do we know what ridewrapper's axle ratio is?
Auto trans cooler IMO should be a priority for everyone. But you have to add a temp monitoring gauge if running it solo (not through radiator to avoid pink slush and tranny destruction when the ATF to water separator in your radiator inevitably fails).
If you look through the thread I posted, it's pretty specifically sized coolers that fit our trucks. And for optimized flow you want the 1.5" thick cooler mounted nearly against the A/C condenser so that radiator fan pulls air through the ATF cooler instead of around (which happens if improperly mounted). But yes, any cooler is better than none but even the Toyota towing package I have (similar to what you're recommending) has a tremendous amount to be desired in terms of ideal... Lastly if using a junkyard cooler, you want to be sure it's been fully flushed, which you can only really do on tube coolers, not plate. Any junk from your donor tranny could increase wear on your own...
You have good gear for tire on that auto.
Auto trans cooler should be a high priority if you often hill or offroad.
You can get a nice one at the junkyards from the HD trucks, You can even take the time mounting it and running hardline right to the old trans lines, Then just quick change of hose over.
Fan clutch could be getting weak.
Auto trans cooler should be a high priority if you often hill or offroad.
You can get a nice one at the junkyards from the HD trucks, You can even take the time mounting it and running hardline right to the old trans lines, Then just quick change of hose over.
Fan clutch could be getting weak.
Auto trans cooler IMO should be a priority for everyone. But you have to add a temp monitoring gauge if running it solo (not through radiator to avoid pink slush and tranny destruction when the ATF to water separator in your radiator inevitably fails).
If you look through the thread I posted, it's pretty specifically sized coolers that fit our trucks. And for optimized flow you want the 1.5" thick cooler mounted nearly against the A/C condenser so that radiator fan pulls air through the ATF cooler instead of around (which happens if improperly mounted). But yes, any cooler is better than none but even the Toyota towing package I have (similar to what you're recommending) has a tremendous amount to be desired in terms of ideal... Lastly if using a junkyard cooler, you want to be sure it's been fully flushed, which you can only really do on tube coolers, not plate. Any junk from your donor tranny could increase wear on your own...
Last edited by RSR; 08-28-2013 at 11:44 PM.
08-29-2013, 12:52 AM
#38
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Original cooler setup. Cooler will not fit with ac..so that monstrosity was built. Plenty strong. Was not into rocks then. Became an anchor
Nice and tight. Meh it works
08-29-2013, 02:42 PM
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RSR, post #11
Ridewrapper, Thankyou for reposting it again.
As for the the size of a trans cooler, Unless you live in the extreme cold climate location going oversize only helps, Its cost and fit that make the restriction.
Ridewrapper, Thankyou for reposting it again.
As for the the size of a trans cooler, Unless you live in the extreme cold climate location going oversize only helps, Its cost and fit that make the restriction.
