Ladies Helping Their Guys
04-06-2015, 11:41 AM
#22
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Sorry for Delay
More diagnosing & less wasting money
http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-b.../4onvehicl.pdf
Is there spark? Compression? Fuel?
Telling us what you've replaced doesn't really tell us anything.
http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-b.../4onvehicl.pdf
Is there spark? Compression? Fuel?
Telling us what you've replaced doesn't really tell us anything.
04-06-2015, 11:44 AM
#23
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Now the only thing I know on this is that when he replaced the timing chain, which is what set all this off in the first place, he has since checked it several times and says "it's top dead center', so I hope you know what that means! LOL I'll ask him if he has checked the cam one when he get home tonight. Thank you and I will get back to you.
04-10-2015, 07:57 AM
#25
Now the only thing I know on this is that when he replaced the timing chain, which is what set all this off in the first place, he has since checked it several times and says "it's top dead center', so I hope you know what that means! LOL I'll ask him if he has checked the cam one when he get home tonight. Thank you and I will get back to you.
04-15-2015, 06:51 PM
#26
He has me ordering a regulator and pump today but I noticed that while searching, I have discovered a fuel pump rear relay. I don't know if I need to get this or what so I am going to have to wait until he gets home from work. Thank you for your help and I'm sorry I am late getting back to you.
04-17-2015, 10:42 AM
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One Step Forward and 1/2 Step Back!! We are gaining!
Ok, UPDATE:
We bought a fuel pump pressure regulator (I might not have the name right) and a fuel pump. He has installed both. He tried to blow thru the old one and it was clogged so maybe that was our problem.
When he went to start it, it did better but now it's backfiring. He was going to turn the thingy inside the distributor but I told him to wait. I wanted to get you folks' opinions.
Here's the facts so far: He has used the diagram one of you gave us the link to. He bought a new meter incase his old one might be inaccurate. He has checked everything electrical and all numbers are now right on. He checked fuses and wiring. He has spark to the plugs now, he didn't at one time. We have installed a new ignitor, coil, battery, cables are perfect, spark plug wires are perfect (we do wonder if a parts place gave him the right wires tho), new timing chain, guides, wheel with teeth on it, gaskets galore!! LOL and clean fuel. Changed oil and new antifreeze. I know a lot of this has nothing to do with Jack but just incase anyone else has this problem, they will know. No bad codes being spit out by the computer, it says all is perfect.
So what we need to know is, should he just simply turn the thingy in the distributor or take the timing chain cover off, turn the top cam or pully thing and not the bottom one and set them somehow? He can't let it run long enough to set the timing because of all the backfiring. So the engine now has the pressurized fuel, it's getting fuel and we are so close to having this thing solved but now we ask about the best way to take care of the backfiring.
He has to work for several days so I'll keep checking but it will be a few days before he can work on it again and, we are getting sno which doesn't help when the truck isn't in a nice heated garage!!
Thank you all so very much. Oh, he wanted me to ask how the timing could be off on one or the other cams when they work together with the chain on? I hope that makes sense.
ok, thanx
We bought a fuel pump pressure regulator (I might not have the name right) and a fuel pump. He has installed both. He tried to blow thru the old one and it was clogged so maybe that was our problem.
When he went to start it, it did better but now it's backfiring. He was going to turn the thingy inside the distributor but I told him to wait. I wanted to get you folks' opinions.
Here's the facts so far: He has used the diagram one of you gave us the link to. He bought a new meter incase his old one might be inaccurate. He has checked everything electrical and all numbers are now right on. He checked fuses and wiring. He has spark to the plugs now, he didn't at one time. We have installed a new ignitor, coil, battery, cables are perfect, spark plug wires are perfect (we do wonder if a parts place gave him the right wires tho), new timing chain, guides, wheel with teeth on it, gaskets galore!! LOL and clean fuel. Changed oil and new antifreeze. I know a lot of this has nothing to do with Jack but just incase anyone else has this problem, they will know. No bad codes being spit out by the computer, it says all is perfect.
So what we need to know is, should he just simply turn the thingy in the distributor or take the timing chain cover off, turn the top cam or pully thing and not the bottom one and set them somehow? He can't let it run long enough to set the timing because of all the backfiring. So the engine now has the pressurized fuel, it's getting fuel and we are so close to having this thing solved but now we ask about the best way to take care of the backfiring.
He has to work for several days so I'll keep checking but it will be a few days before he can work on it again and, we are getting sno which doesn't help when the truck isn't in a nice heated garage!!
Thank you all so very much. Oh, he wanted me to ask how the timing could be off on one or the other cams when they work together with the chain on? I hope that makes sense.
ok, thanx
04-17-2015, 10:44 AM
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04-17-2015, 10:47 AM
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Just a little something we discovered!! Interesting fact: Did you know that when he removed the gas tank in order to install the fuel pump, there were two electrical wires in the fuel!! Now that goes beyond my logic. Wires are electrical. That means one is hot. How can a hot wire be laying in fuel that is flammable? Sounds kinda unsafe to me!!
04-17-2015, 11:41 AM
#31
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Ok, UPDATE:
.
So what we need to know is, should he just simply turn the thingy in the distributor or take the timing chain cover off, turn the top cam or pully thing and not the bottom one and set them somehow? He can't let it run long enough to set the timing because of all the backfiring. ...
.
So what we need to know is, should he just simply turn the thingy in the distributor or take the timing chain cover off, turn the top cam or pully thing and not the bottom one and set them somehow? He can't let it run long enough to set the timing because of all the backfiring. ...
Now, assuming you have a 4 cylinder the timing can be off in a couple of ways:
1.) Both the crankshaft and the camshaft need to be at top dead center (12 O'Clock) on the compression stroke.
The engine turns 2 full rotations between each spark like this: Intake (Piston pulling down to suck in air and fuel), Compression (Piston pushing back up to compress the air and fuel for ignition),Power (The fuel has been ignited and the explosion is pushing the piston down), and Exhaust (The piston is moving back up and pushing the exhause gases out of the exhaust port.
The camshaft opens and closes the valves in the head as appropriate in each stroke. That's why the chain has to be installed in a very particular way. Usually you have to set the Crankshaft and camshaft at TDC, then there are specially marked links on the chain to ensure proper alignment with the index marks on the sprockets.
All of this essay leads into the possibility that you could be off by a tooth one way or another on one of the sprockets. This is a real possibility since you mention backfiring. A backfire can come from a valve opening during a power stroke.
2.) Assuming the chain was installed properly and the tensioner didn't throw him off during the install, the most common issue I've heard (and experienced) is that the engine was at TDC on the exhaust stroke, causing my distributor to be off by 180 degrees when I installed it. (Not likely for you since your engine is running and backfiring)
3.) The distributor has a gear that connects to the camshaft, it's not uncommon for that to be installed a tooth or two off.
So If you're absolutely sure #1 is correct, I would skip #2 and check the distributor for #3. As already mentioned, when the engine is at TDC on compression, the rotor in the distributor needs to be in position to spark cylinder 1 which is approx 5 degrees (Close to 1 O'Clock)
Most of us understand your frustration as we've been in that position a time or two, but it sounds like a simple problem that will be worked out with a level head or five. (Hide the torch!)
Last edited by technojunkie; 04-17-2015 at 12:14 PM.
04-17-2015, 02:56 PM
#32
04-17-2015, 03:30 PM
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I think I already said this, but dist pointed at #1, timing mark at 0 and valve cam key at 12 o'clock,(dimple is at about 11:50). Pull your plug and make sure you piston is at the top with a pencil and your dist rotor is pointing to #1. Your cam lobs on #1 should be pointed down at opposite 45 degree angles, like this/\. Make sure your timing mark lines up with the key way in the harmonic balancer or it could have slipped. there should be absolutely no slack in your timing chain, none at all. If there is slack in your chain, then the chain is wrong or the bolt in the tensioner needs attention. If these things are right then let me know.
Last edited by lonfu; 04-17-2015 at 03:33 PM.
04-17-2015, 10:56 PM
#34
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While it may well be something simple like checking the sparkplug wires for firing order..a good bet due to the backfiring....
I managed to come up with an unhappy thought.
True or false..The 22r is an interference motor,yes?(or no?)
If ,for example,without a functioning timing chain,if the engine were cranked over during repairs..might it be possible a piston smacked an intake valve sufficiently to bend the valve stem?
That would make the valve not seat,a backfire setup.
So,after checking plug wire firing order it might not hurt to run a compression check.
If you have compression,no worry.
And,if you have compression ,and a new timing chain...and hopefully some oil pressure,its probably something silly and fixable.
Go over all vacuum lines.Use a diagram to make sure they go to the right place,and the hoses are good.Its good to take pix before you take things apart.
Is it EFI? Forgive me but I don't recall,is there a Schraeder type valve,that looks like a place to air up a tire on the fuel log on a Toy?The place you check fuel pressure?
If you have that,try this.Crank it till it at least hits once or twice,then shut off the key.
Wait a few minutes.Now,with eye protection,because hopefully gasoline will squirt,take the cap off that valve and poke the little doohickey like you were letting air out of a tire.If you got a squirt,GOOD!It means your injectors are not leaking.A stuck/leaky one would bleed off the pressure.
It might be a good time to check fuel log pressure if you have a guage.There are lower price ones available.But,I see aSnap-on in the pawn shop occasionally.
Thing is,if it checks good,might not need to order/change parts.(fuel pump/regulator)
If you can get it to just run,(rough) unplugging one plug wire at a time can be informative.If it runs worse or dies,that hole works.If you pull a plug and nothing happens,or it runs better...AHA!!
I have not looked at mine,but,if you can pull that same test easily with the wires to injectors,it can be revealing.
I'm not a mechanic,I just shade tree my own stuff.I have not fiddled with that part of my Toyota,but I might have learned from my Ford or an old John Deere or...
I managed to come up with an unhappy thought.
True or false..The 22r is an interference motor,yes?(or no?)
If ,for example,without a functioning timing chain,if the engine were cranked over during repairs..might it be possible a piston smacked an intake valve sufficiently to bend the valve stem?
That would make the valve not seat,a backfire setup.
So,after checking plug wire firing order it might not hurt to run a compression check.
If you have compression,no worry.
And,if you have compression ,and a new timing chain...and hopefully some oil pressure,its probably something silly and fixable.
Go over all vacuum lines.Use a diagram to make sure they go to the right place,and the hoses are good.Its good to take pix before you take things apart.
Is it EFI? Forgive me but I don't recall,is there a Schraeder type valve,that looks like a place to air up a tire on the fuel log on a Toy?The place you check fuel pressure?
If you have that,try this.Crank it till it at least hits once or twice,then shut off the key.
Wait a few minutes.Now,with eye protection,because hopefully gasoline will squirt,take the cap off that valve and poke the little doohickey like you were letting air out of a tire.If you got a squirt,GOOD!It means your injectors are not leaking.A stuck/leaky one would bleed off the pressure.
It might be a good time to check fuel log pressure if you have a guage.There are lower price ones available.But,I see aSnap-on in the pawn shop occasionally.
Thing is,if it checks good,might not need to order/change parts.(fuel pump/regulator)
If you can get it to just run,(rough) unplugging one plug wire at a time can be informative.If it runs worse or dies,that hole works.If you pull a plug and nothing happens,or it runs better...AHA!!
I have not looked at mine,but,if you can pull that same test easily with the wires to injectors,it can be revealing.
I'm not a mechanic,I just shade tree my own stuff.I have not fiddled with that part of my Toyota,but I might have learned from my Ford or an old John Deere or...
Last edited by NBRanger; 04-17-2015 at 11:23 PM.
04-20-2015, 12:51 PM
#35
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Ok, let me try to reply to everyone in a nutshell. The timing is right. He checked everything as you all suggested. The 5 degrees and 0 degrees are all right on. TDC is right. The backfiring is continuing but let me clarify something. The truck is NOT running when it backfires....it's cranking but won't run. It's during the cranking that it's backfiring. Also, the Air Flow Meter is rapidly clicking when he is trying to crank it over. Everything you all have suggested, thank you first of all, and secondly, it guided him into checking and rechecking everything again. I'm sure, as has been said, it's something very simple......silly simple.....but something is just not right. He has spark, he has everything within the ranges indicated on his meter, a bunch of new parts and the list goes on and on. I wish I could tape record his trying to start it. Maybe by listening to it someone will notice something. Just a question but, when he bought the spark plug wires, he was given just regular wires. Is it possible that he needs more powerful or higher type wires? I mean we are just missing something somewhere and this has become very frustrating and consumed every waking minute. Thank you everyone for all the time you took in posting very good and informative posts and they were a huge help. He read and followed each one.
04-20-2015, 01:03 PM
#36
Back fire out the intake is timing. The spark is arriving before the intake valve closes, so it goes boom out the intake. Off a tooth @cam or distributor. AFM clacking is a intake valve open pushing air OUT, when its only supposed to be going in.
I just wonder, is that cam 180 degree's out? You really need to look @cam to see if both valves are shut when the crank timing is TDC. At this point I agree you really need to run a compression test. Something is off.
I just wonder, is that cam 180 degree's out? You really need to look @cam to see if both valves are shut when the crank timing is TDC. At this point I agree you really need to run a compression test. Something is off.
04-20-2015, 01:21 PM
#37
Back fire out the intake is timing. The spark is arriving before the intake valve closes, so it goes boom out the intake. Off a tooth @cam or distributor. AFM clacking is a intake valve open pushing air OUT, when its only supposed to be going in.
I just wonder, is that cam 180 degree's out? You really need to look @cam to see if both valves are shut when the crank timing is TDC. At this point I agree you really need to run a compression test. Something is off.
I just wonder, is that cam 180 degree's out? You really need to look @cam to see if both valves are shut when the crank timing is TDC. At this point I agree you really need to run a compression test. Something is off.
04-20-2015, 02:55 PM
#38
Take off the valve cover rotate the engine until BOTH valves for #1 are closed, set the timing mark on the crank to TDC. Then set the distributor to just before the #1 spark plug wire.
Or you can just move wire #1 to #3 and rewire from there, I bet it lights.
04-21-2015, 06:59 AM
#39
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If the chain and distributor are properly installed, then backfiring should not occur.
I have to answer your question with a question. You say he replaced the timing chain, but then mention multiple cams. the 4 cylinder 22re uses a chain and only has 1 cam, the 6 cylinder 3vze has 2 cams and a timing belt. So which are we talking about? Based on everything else you've said I assume we're talking about a 4 cylinder but it helps to know for sure.
(Yes, it's the 4 cylinder 22re, sorry for the confusion)
Now, assuming you have a 4 cylinder the timing can be off in a couple of ways:
1.) Both the crankshaft and the camshaft need to be at top dead center (12 O'Clock) on the compression stroke.
The engine turns 2 full rotations between each spark like this: Intake (Piston pulling down to suck in air and fuel), Compression (Piston pushing back up to compress the air and fuel for ignition),Power (The fuel has been ignited and the explosion is pushing the piston down), and Exhaust (The piston is moving back up and pushing the exhause gases out of the exhaust port.
The camshaft opens and closes the valves in the head as appropriate in each stroke. That's why the chain has to be installed in a very particular way. Usually you have to set the Crankshaft and camshaft at TDC, then there are specially marked links on the chain to ensure proper alignment with the index marks on the sprockets.
(He has everything lined up with the marks. It's perfect)
All of this essay leads into the possibility that you could be off by a tooth one way or another on one of the sprockets. This is a real possibility since you mention backfiring. A backfire can come from a valve opening during a power stroke.
(A problem he had was that the chain had 'chewed' off a couple teeth and he replaced it and put the new timing chain on. Is it possible that with the loss of a few teeth and putting on the new one and installing the timing chain, something went wrong and is out of wack? All marks do line up tho and chain is on correctly)
2.) Assuming the chain was installed properly and the tensioner didn't throw him off during the install, the most common issue I've heard (and experienced) is that the engine was at TDC on the exhaust stroke, causing my distributor to be off by 180 degrees when I installed it. (Not likely for you since your engine is running and backfiring)
(That's the issue.....truck IS NOT running and is backfiring when he turns the key to crank it over)
3.) The distributor has a gear that connects to the camshaft, it's not uncommon for that to be installed a tooth or two off.
So If you're absolutely sure #1 is correct, I would skip #2 and check the distributor for #3. As already mentioned, when the engine is at TDC on compression, the rotor in the distributor needs to be in position to spark cylinder 1 which is approx 5 degrees (Close to 1 O'Clock)
Most of us understand your frustration as we've been in that position a time or two, but it sounds like a simple problem that will be worked out with a level head or five. (Hide the torch!)
I have to answer your question with a question. You say he replaced the timing chain, but then mention multiple cams. the 4 cylinder 22re uses a chain and only has 1 cam, the 6 cylinder 3vze has 2 cams and a timing belt. So which are we talking about? Based on everything else you've said I assume we're talking about a 4 cylinder but it helps to know for sure.
(Yes, it's the 4 cylinder 22re, sorry for the confusion)
Now, assuming you have a 4 cylinder the timing can be off in a couple of ways:
1.) Both the crankshaft and the camshaft need to be at top dead center (12 O'Clock) on the compression stroke.
The engine turns 2 full rotations between each spark like this: Intake (Piston pulling down to suck in air and fuel), Compression (Piston pushing back up to compress the air and fuel for ignition),Power (The fuel has been ignited and the explosion is pushing the piston down), and Exhaust (The piston is moving back up and pushing the exhause gases out of the exhaust port.
The camshaft opens and closes the valves in the head as appropriate in each stroke. That's why the chain has to be installed in a very particular way. Usually you have to set the Crankshaft and camshaft at TDC, then there are specially marked links on the chain to ensure proper alignment with the index marks on the sprockets.
(He has everything lined up with the marks. It's perfect)
All of this essay leads into the possibility that you could be off by a tooth one way or another on one of the sprockets. This is a real possibility since you mention backfiring. A backfire can come from a valve opening during a power stroke.
(A problem he had was that the chain had 'chewed' off a couple teeth and he replaced it and put the new timing chain on. Is it possible that with the loss of a few teeth and putting on the new one and installing the timing chain, something went wrong and is out of wack? All marks do line up tho and chain is on correctly)
2.) Assuming the chain was installed properly and the tensioner didn't throw him off during the install, the most common issue I've heard (and experienced) is that the engine was at TDC on the exhaust stroke, causing my distributor to be off by 180 degrees when I installed it. (Not likely for you since your engine is running and backfiring)
(That's the issue.....truck IS NOT running and is backfiring when he turns the key to crank it over)
3.) The distributor has a gear that connects to the camshaft, it's not uncommon for that to be installed a tooth or two off.
So If you're absolutely sure #1 is correct, I would skip #2 and check the distributor for #3. As already mentioned, when the engine is at TDC on compression, the rotor in the distributor needs to be in position to spark cylinder 1 which is approx 5 degrees (Close to 1 O'Clock)
Most of us understand your frustration as we've been in that position a time or two, but it sounds like a simple problem that will be worked out with a level head or five. (Hide the torch!)
04-21-2015, 07:03 AM
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it just hit me. You have the distributor 180 degree's out. You put the distributor in at TDC on the exhaust stroke. Since both valves are open (scavenging) it backfires.
Take off the valve cover rotate the engine until BOTH valves for #1 are closed, set the timing mark on the crank to TDC. Then set the distributor to just before the #1 spark plug wire.
Or you can just move wire #1 to #3 and rewire from there, I bet it lights.
Take off the valve cover rotate the engine until BOTH valves for #1 are closed, set the timing mark on the crank to TDC. Then set the distributor to just before the #1 spark plug wire.
Or you can just move wire #1 to #3 and rewire from there, I bet it lights.
