Timing chain difficulty - Page 2

83 · 06-02-2008, 07:12 AM

Ok, got it. Weird how things just won't make sense, then suddenly they do. So...........the timing chain was making a LOT of noise. But somebody's replaced once before already. The plastic guides are just fine. What's making the noise? The cover is pretty chewed up, but I think that's from the original chain. Can't be sure, though.

Red_Chili · 06-02-2008, 08:06 AM

Wow, the timing cover took a beating. Somebody neglected the TC for a long time.

Not to be the bearer of bad news, but... you gotta ask yourself where all those fragments went. One thing you can easily check for is scoring in your oil pump. If you have scoring, you really should pull a main bearing and rod bearing and have a look see...

If the crank is undamaged you can even replace the bearings in the truck if need be. Be sure to size them.

Wow, they loved RTV, didn't they? Use less this time. The FSM details checking the chain itself.

83 · 06-02-2008, 09:01 AM

Yes that sure sounds like fun.........I looked at the oil pump over the weekend and it looked ok to me, but then I wasn't really looking too close for damage, so I'll look again. I wonder if they replaced it when they did the chain. They did like RTV, I'm guessing that's why the front of the engine was completely covered in oil.

Makes me think I aught to pull the oil pan too, to make sure there's nothing in there.

Main bearing and rod bearing sound scary.

Now seeing as the plastic guides are fine, how was the chain making so much noise? Was it maybe not the chain? Had a mechanic tell me it was, but I suppose you can't necessarily tell until you open it up? I guess what I'm almost wondering is, if the oil pump looks ok, do I still go through with replacing the chain & guides? I guess that's where the FSM comes in handy. I just don't get where all the noise was coming from if the chain is fine, and if there's much worse stuff going on.....not sure how deep I'm willing to go.

Red_Chili · 06-02-2008, 09:18 AM

The chain is cheap insurance. It is entirely possible the PO was a bonehead and slapped some new guides in there. It is also entirely possible your chain tensioner clogged with - wait for it...

...wait for it...

some of the excess RTV that came loose and floated around.

Been known to happen.

Mains and rod big end bearings really are no big deal. Easier than what you've done already. Unless the crank got damaged... but even that is no big deal. If it did you may as well get the cylinders bored .020 and have a fresh motor, except for pulling the motor out, you don't really have all THAT much further to go.

And, YES!!! absolutely pull the pan and clean it out. If you are lucky, all the aluminum shards got caught up in the splooge at the bottom of the pan.

Did you get the FSM yet?
Here is a link:
Web linkie

83 · 06-02-2008, 12:29 PM

Ok, thanks

I must admit though, I didn't pull the head..so I'm guessing there still is some work left, if i'm going to go that far. Can I, or should I assume that if the oil pump shows no evidence of having passed any engine stones, that I can just go with the chain replacement & oil pan cleanup and call it good (or at least good for now)?

Thanks very much for the help and advice.

Red_Chili · 06-02-2008, 01:52 PM

Should be fine, BUT... pulling a main bearing cap is really no big deal (you do have a torque wrench, doncha?) and then you KNOW.

IMHO you must pull the head and replace the HG as preventative maintenance if nothing else. Again, not that much more to do.

83 · 06-02-2008, 02:14 PM

Oh boy, the back and forth on the HG.

I was with you, but was convinced not to mess with the head unless it was giving me trouble, since I was just as likely to mess something up (so I was told). I guess I'll have to think how much I want to do. I'd certainly like to not be going back into my engine any time soon.

I do have a crappy torque wrench, but I can borrow one with a "clicker" I guess, so I should be good..

Thanks for the FSM link.

83 · 06-09-2008, 09:29 AM

Ok, have a look. Is this normal for an old engine, or something I should worry about? I sure hope I can get it running again. This is deeper than I've ever been into an engine.

gsb15 · 06-10-2008, 03:06 AM

wow, this seems familiar, i replaced the timing chain in my '83 because of the rattle, only to find that the chain was fine. the rattle just turned out to be my valves chattering away because they werent getting oil

Red_Chili · 06-10-2008, 07:26 AM

Looks like #2 and #3 cylinders are too clean, hard to tell. If so, sure sign of HG failure.

Regards not wanting to disturb the head until it gives you trouble, IMHO it will give you trouble of a bigger sort if you don't replace the HG after its service life. Like, corroding the head or worse, the block deck, requiring the block be decked, and at that point you may as well do a complete overhaul.

Just sayin'...

Be sure to clean the block deck carefully, and to a fare-thee-well, as well as the head. You want those surfaces as clean as possible for the new HG. And they MUST be flat, and free of corrosion or surface disturbance (pitting, etc.), to within spec as delineated in the FSM.

Don't use Scotch-Brite, BTW.

Red_Chili · 06-10-2008, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsb15

wow, this seems familiar, i replaced the timing chain in my '83 because of the rattle, only to find that the chain was fine. the rattle just turned out to be my valves chattering away because they werent getting oil

Oops.
What caused the starvation? Did your cam go first?

83 · 06-10-2008, 08:58 AM

So I've heard someone say they use a medium stiffness metal brush on their hand drill for gasket removal. Good idea?

And yeah, how do I find out if my valves aren't getting oil?

So......you think #1 & 4 look ok, but 2 & 3 are too clean? I've been told the opposite by someone else..2 & 3 look normal, but if that's oil on #1, maybe valve seals or something.

I'm glad I went with your advice and pulled the head. Gives me a chance to clean a lot of things out, and replace the gasket. I just don't want to keep finding stuff wrong! Better now than when it's all back together again, though..

Red_Chili · 06-10-2008, 10:04 AM

Hard to tell from the picture really, but it seems odd that 2&3 are clean on a higher mileage engine. Clean piston tops are a diagnostic for a slight HG leak. In fact, you can pull a plug and scope the piston tops if you have any doubts, and any new-to-you truck should have this done (DAMHIK...

). Most shops have the scope and will do it for you.

#4 does look wet. Hard to tell from what... even coolant when you pulled the head? Web diagnoses are fun...

I wouldn't use the brush. You do NOT want to damage the finish on the block deck in any way. YMMV.

You can get buff pads for a die grinder that are nonabrasive, but I wouldn't even use those personally, or if I did I would be uber uber careful. {edit: checked with my son, a Toyota tech, and he seconded using a die grinder and soft pad. There's your ticket. I just hesitate to turn someone loose with an air powered die grinder who's never done this... so be careful. HG sealing is dependent on a very good surface on the block and the head. To that end, you can even have a machine shop skim .010 off the head without removing the valves, it just depends on the condition of the head. Hope that helps.}

Was your compression good before you tore it down? Did you by chance do a leakdown test? (pretty sure that wasn't done, usually isn't) Can you measure the ridge at the top of the cylinder (need a special tool for that, AFAIK someplace like Auto Zone or Checkers may rent such a tool for free)? If these things are iffy, you may as well pull the motor and freshen it up! You've already removed most of the parts needed to do so. You may need to use a chain or something with the hoist now that the handy dandy motor hooks on the head are of no use to you.

83 · 06-10-2008, 10:47 AM

No, I won't be using any air powered tools. I don't have them and likely won't be renting them. I've just got a basic wrench set, that's it. So....a gasket scraper? Or what?

Nope, no tests were done before the tear down except that a mechanic said the timing chain was bad.

It's actually set up 4 - 1 left to right in the photo. One's the real wet looking one, but I know some coolant and oil was spilling out when I pulled the head, so that may be all it is. Good thing I pulled the head though!

What's the best way to clean the bottom of the head? Do I need to remove the cam? I'm very hesitant to just flip it over to clean the gasket surface since it's so heavy, at least without removing the cam, but I can't think of any other way to clean it, unless I can bring it to a machine shop the way it is and just have it resurfaced to rule out any warping.

Red_Chili · 06-10-2008, 01:01 PM

Call your machine shop, but you should not have to pull the cam. They may feel otherwise. It is really no big deal.

Oh, OK- I should have figured out that was the exhaust manifold on the upper part of the pic.

Without air, I guess I might use Scotchbrite after all. Carefully. On the block. With light oil. You want to be very careful with the head. Do they check out square? Don't take any shortcuts there. (Be sure to clean the oil off completely before reassembly of course).

So far I've not had to clean a head. Skimming .010 off is pretty easy.

You want to be extremely careful not to damage the surface. I guess I'd be willing to bet you already have some slight damage and skimming a bit would be advisable anyway. Take it to your machine shop and get them to give it a look.

83 · 06-10-2008, 01:11 PM

Alright, thanks. By the way, really, thanks. I'm pretty clueless here. I'll be able to do it much better next time (which I sure hope will be a long time from now), but I don't really have much idea of anything here, obviously, so I appreciate the help.

I'll take the head to a machine shop and see what they think.

83 · 06-11-2008, 07:31 AM

Well on someone's advice I checked the rods last night since the oil pan's off. #3 & 4 have some play in them. Now by now I know your answer....pull the engine. But, do I need to? Can I replace bearings and work on pistons & valve seals with the engine in the truck? Money's very short, so not having to rent an engine hoist and buy beer for friends to come help would be nice if I want to be able to buy the parts to put this thing back together, too......

Red_Chili · 06-11-2008, 08:10 AM

You can replace bearings in the truck if and only if your crank is in wonderful shape. No burrs, no grooves, etc. I suppose even then you could pull the crank while the block is in the truck but that would be harder than just pulling the motor.

Yes you can pull the pistons likewise, and throw in new rings, but I bet you won't be happy. My money is on the following:
Ridge > .010 on at least one cylinder
Piston skirts somewhat reduced in measurement leading to excess slap (probably your noise)
Some cylinder and or piston scoring evident
Wrist pin excessive play
Block deck not up to snuff

All of which equates to an overhaul. You can strip the block yourself, and take the block and crank to a good machinist. You can use engnbldr's master rebuild kit and save some serious money. Then reassemble and have a pristine motor.

83 · 06-11-2008, 08:52 AM

Hmm. Ok, now how many special tools etc. do I need for a rebuild? It's never been something I figured I cared to know enough to do. I guess being broke makes me do a lot of things I figured I'd just pay someone to do before, though..still, this is seeming to get beyond my mechanical abilities, seeing as I'm basically going it alone with help from people like you, but I have no one working with me, and no one with experience to help me not make those little begginer mistakes. Not sure how I feel about it all........

Red_Chili · 06-11-2008, 10:35 AM

To actually reassemble the motor after you get it back from the machine shop? Not too many really. And many are available at Checkers/Kragen etc. to borrow. You need good torque wrenches capable of the values specified in the FSM, ring compressor, normal hand tools and sockets. Some 1/2" drive stuff for things like bearing caps and whatnot. An old fashioned oil can is really helpful believe it or not. You want to apply 30W to stuff as an assembly lube.

My machine shop (Gunn's in Denver) was extremely helpful. He gave me a LOT of tips about reassembly, most of which I used, some of which were just personal preference. See if yours will give you pointers. Some of the smaller private auto parts places are helpful too, if you buy something from them (out of courtesy to them). The FSM is very good, though the organization can be frustrating. It's all in there.

Ted or Tod at www.engnbldr.com are EXTREMELY helpful. Give them a shout. Buy your master kit from them.

It is not as hard as it seems when you are looking into the engine bay.

06-02-2008, 08:06 AM	#27 (permalink)
Red_Chili Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 282	Wow, the timing cover took a beating. Somebody neglected the TC for a long time. Not to be the bearer of bad news, but... you gotta ask yourself where all those fragments went. One thing you can easily check for is scoring in your oil pump. If you have scoring, you really should pull a main bearing and rod bearing and have a look see... If the crank is undamaged you can even replace the bearings in the truck if need be. Be sure to size them. Wow, they loved RTV, didn't they? Use less this time. The FSM details checking the chain itself. __________________ -Bill Red Chili II: 1987 SASed 5VZ-FE 4Runner with more stuff than I can afford. Not that that makes me unique 'round here. Shadowfax: 1993 minitruck. Getting the Engnbldr full meal deal. Hunting truck and DD! Bio Page Last edited by Red_Chili : 06-02-2008 at 08:16 AM.

06-02-2008, 09:01 AM	#28 (permalink)
83 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 478	Yes that sure sounds like fun.........I looked at the oil pump over the weekend and it looked ok to me, but then I wasn't really looking too close for damage, so I'll look again. I wonder if they replaced it when they did the chain. They did like RTV, I'm guessing that's why the front of the engine was completely covered in oil. Makes me think I aught to pull the oil pan too, to make sure there's nothing in there. Main bearing and rod bearing sound scary. Now seeing as the plastic guides are fine, how was the chain making so much noise? Was it maybe not the chain? Had a mechanic tell me it was, but I suppose you can't necessarily tell until you open it up? I guess what I'm almost wondering is, if the oil pump looks ok, do I still go through with replacing the chain & guides? I guess that's where the FSM comes in handy. I just don't get where all the noise was coming from if the chain is fine, and if there's much worse stuff going on.....not sure how deep I'm willing to go. Last edited by 83 : 06-02-2008 at 09:07 AM.

06-02-2008, 09:18 AM	#29 (permalink)
Red_Chili Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 282	The chain is cheap insurance. It is entirely possible the PO was a bonehead and slapped some new guides in there. It is also entirely possible your chain tensioner clogged with - wait for it... ...wait for it... some of the excess RTV that came loose and floated around. Been known to happen. Mains and rod big end bearings really are no big deal. Easier than what you've done already. Unless the crank got damaged... but even that is no big deal. If it did you may as well get the cylinders bored .020 and have a fresh motor, except for pulling the motor out, you don't really have all THAT much further to go. And, YES!!! absolutely pull the pan and clean it out. If you are lucky, all the aluminum shards got caught up in the splooge at the bottom of the pan. Did you get the FSM yet? Here is a link: Web linkie __________________ -Bill Red Chili II: 1987 SASed 5VZ-FE 4Runner with more stuff than I can afford. Not that that makes me unique 'round here. Shadowfax: 1993 minitruck. Getting the Engnbldr full meal deal. Hunting truck and DD! Bio Page Last edited by Red_Chili : 06-02-2008 at 09:22 AM.

06-02-2008, 01:52 PM	#31 (permalink)
Red_Chili Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 282	Should be fine, BUT... pulling a main bearing cap is really no big deal (you do have a torque wrench, doncha?) and then you KNOW. IMHO you must pull the head and replace the HG as preventative maintenance if nothing else. Again, not that much more to do. __________________ -Bill Red Chili II: 1987 SASed 5VZ-FE 4Runner with more stuff than I can afford. Not that that makes me unique 'round here. Shadowfax: 1993 minitruck. Getting the Engnbldr full meal deal. Hunting truck and DD! Bio Page

06-10-2008, 07:26 AM	#35 (permalink)
Red_Chili Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 282	Looks like #2 and #3 cylinders are too clean, hard to tell. If so, sure sign of HG failure. Regards not wanting to disturb the head until it gives you trouble, IMHO it will give you trouble of a bigger sort if you don't replace the HG after its service life. Like, corroding the head or worse, the block deck, requiring the block be decked, and at that point you may as well do a complete overhaul. Just sayin'... Be sure to clean the block deck carefully, and to a fare-thee-well, as well as the head. You want those surfaces as clean as possible for the new HG. And they MUST be flat, and free of corrosion or surface disturbance (pitting, etc.), to within spec as delineated in the FSM. Don't use Scotch-Brite, BTW. __________________ -Bill Red Chili II: 1987 SASed 5VZ-FE 4Runner with more stuff than I can afford. Not that that makes me unique 'round here. Shadowfax: 1993 minitruck. Getting the Engnbldr full meal deal. Hunting truck and DD! Bio Page Last edited by Red_Chili : 06-10-2008 at 07:27 AM.

06-02-2008, 07:12 AM	#26 (permalink)
83 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 478	Ok, got it. Weird how things just won't make sense, then suddenly they do. So...........the timing chain was making a LOT of noise. But somebody's replaced once before already. The plastic guides are just fine. What's making the noise? The cover is pretty chewed up, but I think that's from the original chain. Can't be sure, though.

06-02-2008, 12:29 PM	#30 (permalink)
83 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 478	Ok, thanks I must admit though, I didn't pull the head..so I'm guessing there still is some work left, if i'm going to go that far. Can I, or should I assume that if the oil pump shows no evidence of having passed any engine stones, that I can just go with the chain replacement & oil pan cleanup and call it good (or at least good for now)? Thanks very much for the help and advice.

06-02-2008, 02:14 PM	#32 (permalink)
83 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 478	Oh boy, the back and forth on the HG. I was with you, but was convinced not to mess with the head unless it was giving me trouble, since I was just as likely to mess something up (so I was told). I guess I'll have to think how much I want to do. I'd certainly like to not be going back into my engine any time soon. I do have a crappy torque wrench, but I can borrow one with a "clicker" I guess, so I should be good.. Thanks for the FSM link.

06-09-2008, 09:29 AM	#33 (permalink)
83 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 478	Ok, have a look. Is this normal for an old engine, or something I should worry about? I sure hope I can get it running again. This is deeper than I've ever been into an engine.

06-10-2008, 03:06 AM	#34 (permalink)
gsb15 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Victoria B.C. Posts: 57	wow, this seems familiar, i replaced the timing chain in my '83 because of the rattle, only to find that the chain was fine. the rattle just turned out to be my valves chattering away because they werent getting oil

06-10-2008, 08:58 AM	#37 (permalink)
83 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 478	So I've heard someone say they use a medium stiffness metal brush on their hand drill for gasket removal. Good idea? And yeah, how do I find out if my valves aren't getting oil? So......you think #1 & 4 look ok, but 2 & 3 are too clean? I've been told the opposite by someone else..2 & 3 look normal, but if that's oil on #1, maybe valve seals or something. I'm glad I went with your advice and pulled the head. Gives me a chance to clean a lot of things out, and replace the gasket. I just don't want to keep finding stuff wrong! Better now than when it's all back together again, though..

06-10-2008, 10:04 AM	#38 (permalink)
Red_Chili Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 282	Hard to tell from the picture really, but it seems odd that 2&3 are clean on a higher mileage engine. Clean piston tops are a diagnostic for a slight HG leak. In fact, you can pull a plug and scope the piston tops if you have any doubts, and any new-to-you truck should have this done (DAMHIK... ). Most shops have the scope and will do it for you. #4 does look wet. Hard to tell from what... even coolant when you pulled the head? Web diagnoses are fun... I wouldn't use the brush. You do NOT want to damage the finish on the block deck in any way. YMMV. You can get buff pads for a die grinder that are nonabrasive, but I wouldn't even use those personally, or if I did I would be uber uber careful. {edit: checked with my son, a Toyota tech, and he seconded using a die grinder and soft pad. There's your ticket. I just hesitate to turn someone loose with an air powered die grinder who's never done this... so be careful. HG sealing is dependent on a very good surface on the block and the head. To that end, you can even have a machine shop skim .010 off the head without removing the valves, it just depends on the condition of the head. Hope that helps.} Was your compression good before you tore it down? Did you by chance do a leakdown test? (pretty sure that wasn't done, usually isn't) Can you measure the ridge at the top of the cylinder (need a special tool for that, AFAIK someplace like Auto Zone or Checkers may rent such a tool for free)? If these things are iffy, you may as well pull the motor and freshen it up! You've already removed most of the parts needed to do so. You may need to use a chain or something with the hoist now that the handy dandy motor hooks on the head are of no use to you. __________________ -Bill Red Chili II: 1987 SASed 5VZ-FE 4Runner with more stuff than I can afford. Not that that makes me unique 'round here. Shadowfax: 1993 minitruck. Getting the Engnbldr full meal deal. Hunting truck and DD! Bio Page Last edited by Red_Chili : 06-10-2008 at 10:20 AM.

06-10-2008, 10:47 AM	#39 (permalink)
83 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 478	No, I won't be using any air powered tools. I don't have them and likely won't be renting them. I've just got a basic wrench set, that's it. So....a gasket scraper? Or what? Nope, no tests were done before the tear down except that a mechanic said the timing chain was bad. It's actually set up 4 - 1 left to right in the photo. One's the real wet looking one, but I know some coolant and oil was spilling out when I pulled the head, so that may be all it is. Good thing I pulled the head though! What's the best way to clean the bottom of the head? Do I need to remove the cam? I'm very hesitant to just flip it over to clean the gasket surface since it's so heavy, at least without removing the cam, but I can't think of any other way to clean it, unless I can bring it to a machine shop the way it is and just have it resurfaced to rule out any warping.

06-10-2008, 01:01 PM	#40 (permalink)
Red_Chili Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 282	Call your machine shop, but you should not have to pull the cam. They may feel otherwise. It is really no big deal. Oh, OK- I should have figured out that was the exhaust manifold on the upper part of the pic. Without air, I guess I might use Scotchbrite after all. Carefully. On the block. With light oil. You want to be very careful with the head. Do they check out square? Don't take any shortcuts there. (Be sure to clean the oil off completely before reassembly of course). So far I've not had to clean a head. Skimming .010 off is pretty easy. You want to be extremely careful not to damage the surface. I guess I'd be willing to bet you already have some slight damage and skimming a bit would be advisable anyway. Take it to your machine shop and get them to give it a look. __________________ -Bill Red Chili II: 1987 SASed 5VZ-FE 4Runner with more stuff than I can afford. Not that that makes me unique 'round here. Shadowfax: 1993 minitruck. Getting the Engnbldr full meal deal. Hunting truck and DD! Bio Page Last edited by Red_Chili : 06-10-2008 at 01:02 PM.

06-10-2008, 01:11 PM	#41 (permalink)
83 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 478	Alright, thanks. By the way, really, thanks. I'm pretty clueless here. I'll be able to do it much better next time (which I sure hope will be a long time from now), but I don't really have much idea of anything here, obviously, so I appreciate the help. I'll take the head to a machine shop and see what they think.

06-11-2008, 07:31 AM	#42 (permalink)
83 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 478	Well on someone's advice I checked the rods last night since the oil pan's off. #3 & 4 have some play in them. Now by now I know your answer....pull the engine. But, do I need to? Can I replace bearings and work on pistons & valve seals with the engine in the truck? Money's very short, so not having to rent an engine hoist and buy beer for friends to come help would be nice if I want to be able to buy the parts to put this thing back together, too......

06-11-2008, 08:10 AM	#43 (permalink)
Red_Chili Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 282	You can replace bearings in the truck if and only if your crank is in wonderful shape. No burrs, no grooves, etc. I suppose even then you could pull the crank while the block is in the truck but that would be harder than just pulling the motor. Yes you can pull the pistons likewise, and throw in new rings, but I bet you won't be happy. My money is on the following: Ridge > .010 on at least one cylinder Piston skirts somewhat reduced in measurement leading to excess slap (probably your noise) Some cylinder and or piston scoring evident Wrist pin excessive play Block deck not up to snuff All of which equates to an overhaul. You can strip the block yourself, and take the block and crank to a good machinist. You can use engnbldr's master rebuild kit and save some serious money. Then reassemble and have a pristine motor. __________________ -Bill Red Chili II: 1987 SASed 5VZ-FE 4Runner with more stuff than I can afford. Not that that makes me unique 'round here. Shadowfax: 1993 minitruck. Getting the Engnbldr full meal deal. Hunting truck and DD! Bio Page

06-11-2008, 08:52 AM	#44 (permalink)
83 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 478	Hmm. Ok, now how many special tools etc. do I need for a rebuild? It's never been something I figured I cared to know enough to do. I guess being broke makes me do a lot of things I figured I'd just pay someone to do before, though..still, this is seeming to get beyond my mechanical abilities, seeing as I'm basically going it alone with help from people like you, but I have no one working with me, and no one with experience to help me not make those little begginer mistakes. Not sure how I feel about it all........