JustDSM

Here's the deal.. It's time to address some issues with the motor of my truck.. It's got a "reman" 22r from a unknown vendor that was previously installed in my truck. It's running pretty good and has been super reliable, but it's got some quirks. However I'd fully expect it to live probably another 100K but this is my only vehicle, and I don't really plan to buy another. My truck is my "do everything vehicle" and does that extremely well except get up hills.

As the truck sits it has a LCE Intake (Carb adaptor for 11" K&N), Stock carburetor, LCE Header, no cat, 2.25" exhaust to Cherry Bomb "Turbo" muffler. 33x12.50 tires, 4.88 Gears.

A few of the reasons I want to address the motor are:

• The rear main seal leaks
• The front timing cover leaks
• The oil pan leaks
• Some of the intake manifold stud bosses are stripped
• Almost all of the exhaust manifold stud bosses are stripped
• One of the EGR valve bosses are stripped on the head
• The block and/or head are machined enough to keep me from timing the cam properly without the use of a adjustable cam gear causing me to have to purposely run the cam slightly advanced and install the distributor "off" to get the ignition timing "close"
• It's just too much of a dog on inclines

Currently the truck runs well minus the exhaust leaks at the header every now and again. It gets roughly 20mpg driving it 50 miles a day to and from work while making a 2,000 ft climb over a mountain pass each way to and from work. Seems to still get roughly 20mpg regardless though. It's fine around town although a little bit more gutless than I'd like, but then again it is a 22R

Here's where I'd like some input. I've got access to a complete 3RZ with about 150K miles on it. Doesn't look babied, but doesn't look too badly abused either. Anyhow, I'd like to put new bearings in it, new rings, hone the cylinders and balance it. I could get the motor and electrical for $500. Then I'd have to look into a transmisison. I could always get the W58 out of the Tacoma and use Marlin's adaptor to run the stock gear driven transfer case.. But that will probably cost me about $1000 for the adaptor and transmission. So that adds quite a bit. But my L52 is showing it's age. It's doing "ok" now, but the synchros are tired, and the bearings howl a little in 5th when crusing at speed. So I'm going to be needing to address that issue sometime regardless. I would plan to use the Chilak (sp?) motor mounts to drop the 3RZ in my engine bay. So that would tack on another ~$100. I'm very good with electrical circuits and will have ZERO problems wiring this thing.

Or

Rebuild my current 22R. Do a mild performance build, with some slightly higher compression pistons. Maybe 9.5:1 compression. Everything else in the bottom end will be stock but have all the journals polished and the rotating assembly balanced. I could have my 22R head "fixed", by having all the threaded bosses on the intake, exhaust, and EGR ports re-threaded with inserts. Have a mild port job done, larger valves, mild cam with matching valvetrain, Offenhauser dual plane intake manifold, Weber 32/36, and the existing header and exhaust.

I've also got a 20R head I could use, and build it similarly to the above build.

Basicly I'd like some feedback on what you guys would do.. Please don't just reply with "22R or 3RZ". Lets hear your thoughts and discuss this a little. Thanks guys.

xxxtreme22r

I don't know much about the 3rz other then the 150/177 power rating and most likely better fuel economy. So if you go with that, then your advantage would be power. Assuming a healthy motor of course.

Getting up hills with any 22r is a task. Even with the proper gearing you have. Oil pan leak and timing cover leak are an easy fix. Rear main leak, not as easy unless yur pulling the engine.

EGR valve? bah who needs it. haha. Unless your cali or in an emission inspected zone. LCE block off nuff said there unless your talking the threads are stripped in the head like everything else on that engine. I hate jackwagons that like to not use torque wrenches. lol.

You can always "fix" the stripped parts on that head with either thread inserts or just helicoils.

the 20r head is an option if your current engine is a pre-85 engine. Easy to tell if the front part of the valve cover slopes backwards and not straight up and down.

The head/block machining can be "cured" by taking the head off and using a head shim in addition to a new headgasket, but...... unless you know how far it's off it's still guess work. I would just go with the LCE adj cam gear, only problem with that is it has to be modified for the 22r as the fuel pump eccentric gets in the way of it. Two options there. Modify it or grab a spacer ring from a 22re and replace the eccentric and run an external fuel pump. Only drawback to that it the only right way to do the external electric fuel pump is to get an oil pressure safety switch for it and a regulator. You issues on hills are most likely caused by the cam timing being off. Personally I would go adj cam gear route and properly re-dial the cam in. Don't use guess work there though, 0 out the cam using dial indicators etc etc.

If your engine is the pre-85, in order to gain any benefits and possible avoid power drawbacks is to have the head ported and polish etc etc as indicated on the toy-sport hybrid page. You would need the 20r intake though. But your current exhaust manifold would work.

JustDSM

Thanks for taking a few moments to share your thoughts xxxtreme.

I have never driven or do I have any direct experience with the 3RZ either. But I get the fact it's a better engineered motor and is a far superior design to the 22R series motors. I'm quite well aware of the power and torque gains just a bone stock 3RZ would provide over even a moderately built 22R. Not to mention the fuel economy, or the driveability and probably a much smoother and quieter running motor all around..

Over the weekend I spent some time fixing the front cover leak and the pan. I'm now not so certain the rear main is leaking as I think the leaky pan was the culprit.. We'll have to see on that.

As you mentioned the 22R doesn't take well to hills. Problem is much of my activities are in and around hilly terrain, often at high elevation to boot. So power is a major motivator here. If I could get close to 3RZ power levels with a 22R (without of course spending stupid amounts of $) I'd probably prefer that route simply because I like the fact my truck is "old" and keeping it someone orignal keeps that character of the truck intact.

There's no EGR valve, I just meant that the EGR flange on the head where the valve bolts too, the bosses are stripped. Seems the previous owner didn't know what torque values meant.

Currently the truck is probably 80% de-smogged. The only thing that remains are the essentials plus the PCV and EVAP.

Engine is a Pre-85. It's got round exhaust ports.. So I might go pick up that 20R head for safe keeping in my garage if nothing else...

I've never really had the opportunity to really drive a healthy 22R/E so to know what it's supposed to feel like isn't happening. I have to admit the truck drives rather well and will do 75 on the interstate as is, so it's obviously got some power. It just hates inclines of any grade. The moment I have a stiff headwind or a incline this thing just falls on its face. In a way I would like to think the timing has something to do with it. I've fiddled with the cam timing and the ignition timing and the truck currently sits with the cam slightly advanced and the ignition timing around 8deg BTDC with no vacuum applied to the carb. Anyhow..

I guess what my question is.. Is it possible for a moderately built 22R (as I depicted in the 1st post) to perform similarly or on part with a 3RZ? I'd honestly prefer that route as things sit now.. I'd be able to spread the cost of the upgrades over a time period rather than have to dump a ton of coin all at once..

What say you, can it be done?

xxxtreme22r

Getting a 22r to 150 hp even with building a hybrid would be a chore. You'd almost have to stroke it to 2.7 like LCE does. A 22re might be a little easier but not much.

simonwiley

I have a 1980 4wd pickup with 4.10 gears, '81 22r, and '85 5-speed. My engine is bored .40 over and the crank is .10 over. I run an offroad cam, stock intake with a weber 36/36 Syncro carb, and stock exhaust manifold off the original engine. My truck makes enough power to smoke the 35x12.50R15's that are on it. Rebuilding the tired 22r is the way to go. It'll save you time and headache! Make sure when you have the machine work done, that they speedy sleeve the crank (Rear Main) and Harmonic balancer (Front seal). The machine shop, or you can, helicoil the stripped out bolt holes. I had to helicoil my cam cap bolt holes. Its easy to do. Then get with LCE and order their EGR elimination kit. Its 3 aluminum plates that will completely rid your 22r of its EGR crap. I am extremely happy with my 22r.

dropzone

iTrader: (6)

Justin got an awesome deal on a 3RZ so he will be well ahead $$ doing the conversion vs. rebuilding his 22r.....

creswellhick

idk my 22r has got balls no prob up hills with my 36s i just like the old vrs new easier to work on for me and its pretty cheap to get one built as much as i got mine find the right shop then make sure you drop it in your self to save alot of bucks for 1300 everything is new in my motor and not just stock

creswellhick

oh and simon wiley you sure you smoke them and not just chirp them sounds kinda fishey just my opinon

simonwiley

Yup. Little bit of head work, all ARP studs/ bolts, and bigger ignition setup. It can smoke the tires in first and chirp them in second. I'm running BFG KM2. The rear end is super light. I have to pit it in 4wd just to make it up my drive. The only thing I don't like is the transfer case. I have one hell of a time getting it back in 2wd. I hear it's common, but I'm to lazy to see what te problem is.

dropzone

iTrader: (6)

35's and 4.10 bring the suck

RBX

If you can do the swap, the 3rz is the way to go. The 3rz is a direct descendant of the 22r series engines. Toyota improved every aspect of the 22r and named it the 3rz, timing chains lasting 300k before a change, that right there is saying something. I have driven a 3rz(close friend has a 98taco) and owned plenty of 22re engines, i'd much prefer the 3rz, no question about it.
If you can smoke 35s using 4:10s and say your 22r pulls like a dog in heat, i'd like to see numbers/specs and a video. To get a 22r to that level is A. going to take plenty of coin, and B. remove its reliability to extract that much hp, i won't even mention how the mpg is going to go further south. I have my doubts... prove me wrong.

JustDSM

Yes, I went ahead and picked up the 3RZ for about half of what it would end up costing me just to rebuild my 22R. And probably 20% of what it would cost me to spice up the 22R considering I'd be looking at a new Carb ($300+), Intake manifold ($300), Head porting (little to a lot depending on where it was done), 1mm oversize valves, cam ($2-300), Forged Pistons ($400), Bottom end machine work/balancing (300+)

So the "Performance 22R" Build would likely cost me around $1600-1800 to do it in a manner that would perform similarly (at least in theory) to a 3RZ (150hp/177tq)

Now.. Lets take a look at the 3RZ option. I paid $600 for a complete motor, with all the electrical for the entire truck, starter, alternator, A/C Compressor (for onboard air!), power steering pump and lines, 3RZ bellhousing, clutch, flywheel, and slave cylinder.

I'm going to need a T100 2wd Oilpan and related parts (~$150), 22RE throttle Cable (? $10), W56 Transmission ($200-300), Modified driveshafts ($Free.99), Chilcat Motor Mounts ($130), Other Misc Expenses ($100)

So we're looking at a estimated $1200-1300 for a 3RZ swap.

But then factor in all my "22R stuff", like engine, transmission, spare parts, header, ect.. I'm expecting to get about $600-700 for all that stuff.

So I'm looking at a overall out of pocket expense of about $600-700 when it will all be said and done.. Show me any 22R/E built with $600-700 that will outperform a 3RZ....

RBX

Marlin put a 3rz in his 1st gen truck, i think the thread was started by big mike, you may want to check over on their sight for some...uh...insight.

good luck, and lets see some pic progress!

shady4420

I've got to chime in even though you've already made your decision, I like the 22r buildup. looking at your calculations on rebuild vs. 3rz build just above, I noticed the 3rz high cost was almost $1700 all said and done(and I don't get how modified driveshafts are free) and the 22r build price seems high to me (ever heard of craigslist, Ebay? I got a 32/36 weber for $75 perfect cond. still in box) For $1700 you can build a pretty nice 22r, get your engine freshened up at the machine shop and you can even bore the engine and get over size pistons in a rebuild kit from johnsforeignengines.com for like $300. Then get carb, intake, cam, cheap from ebay, ect. and if you still want more power there's a supercharger kit out there for it as well, although it's like 2Gs for that it would be cool, but even without the SC, with everything else you'd be in the ballpark of 3rz power and it's something you can do in stages istead of dropping all that cash at once. I don't mean to rant but I'm soon to do this kind of build to my 81 and like the idea of a 22r with power, and if you're woried about mpg keep your foot out of it. But seriously good find on that 3rz and best of luck to you with it. I look forward to seeing a build thread on it and when I get to building mine we'll have to compare numbers. Keep us posted.

creswellhick

ya for everything that was done to mine 1300 bucks including a new clutch but since you went ahead and bought it good luck

JustDSM

I've read just about every 3RZ swap thread on the internet But thank you for the tip!

Pics will be coming. Please check my build thread in the Pre-84 Section.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts! Always welcome, even after the fact.

Re-doing my driveshafts for $Free.99 is thanks to a buddy with a metal working shop who's got a jig to ensure they're done up nicely. It'll end up costing me a few bucks at the metal yard for some material, but we're talking a few dollars. Not enough to really mention.

I'm sure the build price for the 22R might seem high. Problem is, I don't want to sit around and wait for pieces to pop up for sale, which might or might not be the parts I'm looking for and/or in the condition I expect them to be in. Most often, the parts that pop up are used and in my experience anytime buying used parts for old motors like this, they're likely to be heavily used/abused. So maybe the Weber carb has some funky jets installed, or needs a rebuild, The intake manifold could be warped requiring me to have it resurfaced. It could have stripped out thread bosses or broken bolts/studs. I'm certainly not going to use previously used pistons/rings, and in order to get pistons in 9.5-10:1 compression I'm going to have to go with custom forged pistons. I don't know of ANYONE making high compression cast pistons for the 22R. I'm not much of a fan of using used camshafts either.

Anyhow.. That's my defense

shady4420

Well I have to say your reasoning is sound so I guess it's each to their own, but I'm still excited to see your build and eager to do mine, good luck to both of us.