derrick92130

OK, I am a bit behind in the postings and wanted to clarify a couple of things about my configuration, etc.

I have a 2000 4Runner. When John received my valve body, he commented that it was the 3 solenoid version like the Tacoma, but with other blocked off solenoid locations similar to the Lexus. My transmission does have the cable running from the throttle assembly to vary the pressure for shifts within the transmission. My transmission also has the ECT switch, and I have tended to have it turned ON almost all of the time. When I received my valve body back, I intended to fill the transmission with Amsoil and use the additive that John provided me. Since he gave me such a rapid turnaround, I was not able to get Amsoil in time, so I refilled with factory Toyota Type IV auto trans fluid. I figured once I got it going again and verified everything was OK, I would have it completely flushed and refilled with Amsoil (still haven't done that yet).

Just for comparisons, I am running the elbow mod (not the deckplate mod or ISR mod), 2nd gen S/C, Supra 305cc injectors and the FTC (without ESC).

I'll do some runs today under some load w/o ECT on to try and give you some comparisons. Unfortunately, I don't think I have good boost/vac data points from prior to the valve body rework.

Just a point of curiousity since you are running the 7th injector setup. What is your AFR running when you are under the low pressure (vac) condition under load? The characteristics you describe sounds a bit like a rich condition where maybe you are going into open loop and getting a value from the piggyback unit that is too rich? Not sure why that would be any different now than before the valve body change, but would certainly be worth looking at.

Does your 4Runner have the cable to the throttle assy?

Hope this helps, I'll give some run info later today.

ManyMods

Derrick,
I just got off the phone with John. He and I discussed your setup and the fact that you have the cable where I have the electronic solenoid.

I stand corrected on the work he did because he just informed me that he also replaced 3 springs.

He wants me to check or DTC's and then reset the ECU. He has no good idea as to what is going on.

He wants me to see if there is anyway of determining when the ECU calls for shifts to see if it is a question of the transmission not responding to ECU commands. I may not understand exactly what he is saying here so don't take this literally.

As for fluids, he does not like Dexron III because it becomes too viscous when cold and therefore prefers any ATF+4 or Mercon IV or V fluid.

I have never looked at the AFR readings and if I do, what am I suppose to see? I really know nothing about what to look for when reading diagnostic software like the AUTERRA Dyno-Scan. Someone needs to please tell me or direct me to the numbers I am suppose to be looking for in all the various categories. This is all new to me since I never really cared about it before. I used to just record the data and send the Excel files to my tuner and he would do the rest.

ravencr

Hey ManyMods, sorry about the full mailbox. It's clean now, so feel free to resend it to me.

The first thing I would do is reset the computer for at least 15 minutes, then restart and go for a normal drive. Then let us know what you find from that.

Chris

P.S. As far as AFR's I don't know what programs and tools you are using to read the mixture. If you let us know how it's read on your unit we'll be able to tell you what to look for.

derrick92130

Even though they are different, I'll go ahead and make a run with my 4Runner and post the results.

I don't want to mislead you on my AFR (air to fuel ratio) question. It won't really help you with the issue of shifting too soon, but was really a potential item to check related to your comment about not feeling the same throttle response. If it is shifting earlier, and you are under a different load on the engine, and you have the throttle down far enough to push you into an open loop condition, you may be exercising the ECU/Piggyback in an area of the tables that are different than you have seen before, and possibly too rich. My thought was that if that was the case, you would likely want to lean it out a bit for that load/RPM/boost(or vac) condition. Once again, it wouldn't help your shift point issue, but may help with the power.

The ECU will normally maintain the AFR at 14.7 (that is 14.7 to 1, air to fuel ratio). In the upper areas of the power band (and boost) you may want to richen to 12.2-12.5'ish.

This is probably a whole other conversation and there are many threads on this on other sections of the forum, or I can help you offline. The core issue it sounds like you are down to is the shift point when you are under a load such as an incline, and the point where the downshift occurs. Sounds like John is the best to help you out there, then if you still have a power issue under load, circle back and look at the fuel ratios.

Sorry I can't be of more help. I'll post my run data when I get back.

derrick92130

Peter,

I went for a few runs (thanks for giving me an excuse to go abuse the 4Runner!) and pulled lots of data at a wide range of RPMs and loads (nice long hill near my home).

I experienced no difference in feel or delay in downshifting. I approached the hill at about 50+'ish and as the load increased, I gradually depressed the accelerator and the tranny downshifted as expected without any noticeable delay.

I pulled all of the collected data regarding vacuum/boost and tried to correlate to the following description you sent. If I read the following info (negative vacuum is boost, is that what you intended below?), my 4Runner has almost exactly the same vacuum/boost at those RPMs with guesstimated similar loads. When the load goes up, and the accelerator is gradually increased, the system starts to apply boost (your decrease in vacuum from 5 InHg of vacuum to a neutral position, on the way to boost, and then with additional depression of the accelerator, the system tries to apply even more boost and thus the transition from 2 InHg of vacuum to several pounds of boost). That certainly makes sense to me considering what you are asking the 4Runner to do. I'm not exactly sure I understand when you were seeing the 8-10 InHg of vacuum after the downshift, I was seeing continued generation of boost until I pulled my foot out of it to slow down.
In summary, I don't think that any of the vacuum conditions (with the later as the exception) are abnormal or irregular for those loads and RPM ranges. It sounds like the sensitivity of the transmission to downshift is the issue (just my opinion).

What piggyback unit is Toyota using for the 7th injector? Can you modify the signal conditioning that it is doing? Just curious as it certainly sounds like regardless of the downshift issue, I would question what the air to fuel ratios are at the high load, low rpm, increased boost condition since you appear to be having some significant drop off in power. If you don't have anything to test the air to fuel mixture, please be careful when testing in that range, as you don't want bad things to happen!

ravencr

Very interesting information! So what do you proclaim the issue is then?

Chris

ManyMods

Derrick,
Thank you for what you are doing. I rally appreciate your efforts.

The Auterra software I have will read the following parameters only:
ABSOLUTE THROTTLE POSITION

AIR FLOW RATE FROM MAF

CALCULATED LOAD VALUE

ENGINE COOLANT TEMPERATURE

ENGINE RPM

IGNITION TIMING ADVANCE

INTAKE AIR TEMPERATURE

LONG TERM FUEL TRIM-B1

O2 SENSOR B1-S1 WIDE RANGE V

02 SENSOR B1-S2

SHORT TERM FUEL TRIM-B1

VEHICLE SPEED

I am not conversant enough in most of these areas to know what I should be doing or what numbers I should be looking for. I was just speaking with Jamie about all of this.

As far as your question about when I would experience vacuum readings of 10 InHg, I normally could cruise at 65-70 mph on a relatively level highway at between 10-11 InHg steady throttle and that is not as possible now because the slightest incline would cause to the vacuum to go way down, close to 0 InHg before I would have to force the tranny to kick down from OD into 3rd gear. Normally, the tranny was a lot more sensitive and required less effort. There are diagnostics that say if there is no down shift OD - 3rd, check the 3-4 shift valve and in another diagnostic they want you to check the electrical connection on the Shift Solenoid Valve SLT. Did you know there are at least a dozen check balls in the VB?

There were no DTC's showing and tomorrow I will pull the EFI fuse and see what happens after that. Jamie and I were also wondering if the use of that very heavy reassembly grease to hold all the check balls in could have upset things but I would imagine that the heat and fluid pressure would have emulsified the grease in short order.

My only disadvantage at this point is that I will not be able to drive the car on the highway or at speeds above 45 mph for quite a while now, but I should also be able to tell if there are any problems during around town driving. I hate to think that I might have to drive another 275 miles back down to IPT to have the tranny VB torn down again but if that is what I have to do, I will do it. Time will tell.

derrick92130

I also used quite a bit of the assembly grease on the check ball and two main springs when putting mine back together. I was worried, but have not had any problems at all.

Don't get too hung up on the air to fuel ratio questions. If it isn't right, it is still unrelated to your issue.

In my previous posting I was trying to emphasize that the vacuum pressures appear to be ok, and that you seem to be on the right track with the solenoids, either physically or electrically.

I'm going to hook my laptop up again tomorrow and get up on the freeway and look at the pressures one more time to see what it looks like at 60-70 during normal cruising. I am pretty sure I will see the same as you are reading, as their shouldn't be much load and therefore no need for any boost. I pulled most of my readings on a decent hill with sustained load.

I installed a separate wide band O2 sensor on my 4Runner so I could dial in the power (open loop) part of my tables. It has been a real eye opener for me and I have been learning a ton. You may be able to use the readings from:
O2 SENSOR B1-S1 WIDE RANGE V
02 SENSOR B1-S2
I would imagine the output is probably just voltages. You can send me some examples and I can probably figure the mapping (I seem to remember some other postings on this forum, but I can dig for them). Even if this is a narrow band sensor, you could at least tell if it was going out of range.

On the downshift issue, I would just keep talking to John, he is a very bright guy. I wish I was smarter about the newer transmissions.

ManyMods

Well, I pulled the EFI fuse and the relay for good measure, and after driving back and forth to work, it still seems as if it is lugging in OD. It seems to go through the gear changes very quickly and then not respond to changes once it is in OD. I just don't think it is right to be driving around at 40-50 mph (1200 - 1500rpms) using very light top of the pedal throttle and a vacuum reading of 2 InHg on a 3-5 degree inclined roadway. This does not happen all the time and when it does it feels as though something is hanging up. I push the OD off button and it shifts down into 3rd at about 2000 - 2200 rpms and then back up into OD and everything is fine. It just seems odd and not normal for the way my truck used to run before the VB upgrade. I will disconnect the battery cable if you really think that is going to make a difference?

ravencr

Your rpm's for 40-50 mph is normal. I would pull to the positive cable for 15 minutes to just make sure, and then we'll go from there.

Chris

MTL_4runner

I would pull the neg cable too just to be sure you reset everything.

Is the boost guage in psi or InHg? (thought it was psi?)
Is the boost guage reading a 2+ or -2 ? (my guess is 2+, -2 could be a S/C problem?.....not sure.)

Just so we can keep everything straight negative pressure is vacuum and positive pressure is boost. I know I'm a nerd about terminology. You should see a vacuum being pulled between the supercharger and the throttle plate and a boost pressure between the supercharger and the intake valves.

ManyMods

Okay, I will do that in the morning --- Drat! There go all my stereo settings.

There you go again Jamie I would say it shows InHg on the negative side and psi on tbe positive side. I am reading to the left of 0 and I read it as 2 InHg, but I will have to really look at it now because you have got me all turned around and fooling feelish.

Say what?

ManyMods

I agree Chris, that is normal but the vac pressure was not ... normal for my car.

ravencr

Have you sprayed carb cleaner over all the possible locations for air leaks on your intake, throttle body, and all the vacuum hose connections? I thought I fixed my throttle body gasket leak, and it's leaking again. I'm going to have to fix that sucker for good soon.

It almost sounds as if you're losing some boosted air from the manifold or something. Not sure though.

Chris

ManyMods

Chris,
I am sure anything is possible but I cannot imagine because everything seems normal except that the OD vacuum goes down erratically. I really appreciate your common sense thinking.

ravencr

Do you think the increased fluid pressure is causing the torque convertor to stay locked better?

Chris

MTL_4runner

Does it change anything if you use the ECT button?
Any change in the way it feels?

ManyMods

I can't tell but something is sticking or locking up. I will have to focus on that possibility. I just disconnected the negative battery cable and ---- damn is it cold out there (15 degrees). I am starting to feel like a Canadian.

ManyMods

Don't know ... haven't tried it ... but I will

Say, I just tried to start the truck and it won't start :wtf:
Should I connect the negative cable again?











15 Degrees !!!

MTL_4runner

Funny Guy!

Try -12F today with wind chill (had -42F the other day). :cry:
That does it......I'm movin back to AZ.