Rock's Used Oil Analysis Thread
03-21-2010, 04:15 AM
#21
Registered User
UOA is a great topic.
Here's the skinny... there is no data... quantitative or qualitative data that clearly defines what amount of "particles" or other UOA "test" components that correlates to ANY evidence of engine failure in oil lubrication!!!
In other words... how much lead, or copper, or whatever is needed in an UOA sample to define "engine failure"... of any kind???
There may be some data... I just have not seen it?? Ask Blackstone to produce it??
That's just my worthless opinion
Here's the skinny... there is no data... quantitative or qualitative data that clearly defines what amount of "particles" or other UOA "test" components that correlates to ANY evidence of engine failure in oil lubrication!!!
In other words... how much lead, or copper, or whatever is needed in an UOA sample to define "engine failure"... of any kind???
There may be some data... I just have not seen it?? Ask Blackstone to produce it??
That's just my worthless opinion
1.On my Duramax Diesel, I had injectors that were leaking small amounts of diesel into the crankcase. Had the UOA not told me about this it would have gone on for a while and diluted my oil causing excessive engine wear.
2.I had one that showed coolant in the oil on my wife's car. Come to find out the head gasket was in the early stages of letting go. I was able to swap out instead of going undetected and causing overheating, a warped head, or worse leaving my wife on the side of the road at night.
So yes UOAs can and often do detect problems before they cause major damage.
FOG
03-21-2010, 05:25 AM
#22
Contributing Member
03-21-2010, 12:51 PM
#23
Registered User
Gnarly--I think you are not getting what is trying to be stated here.
I wont get into how the government allocates expenses--it is to complicated to explain here.
Second-- engine failure wont be cut and dry--what you will see is elevated levels of metals as parts wear and that can give you an INDICATION of engine problems. So lets say AN UOA shows XXX lead--then more lead and then higher levels of other metals starting to increase--it doesnt mean the engine is going to fail in the next 100 hours of service--it means maybe you should look at the engine and make sure everything is ok.
Want a case scenario--timing chain on a 22re becomes so sloppy it starts to eat into the timing chain cover---HHHmmm would that increase Alum numbers? Do you know when it is going to exactly fail--no. Is it an indicator---.......Yes
Statistically speaking--Arent there upper and lower bounds for such levels based on the items mean??
Also, if an injector is leaking--it will leak the residual pressurized fuel onto the cylinder (granted valve it is open) and eventually bleed past the rings. RINGS seal via Compression and Pressure (The actual combustion process). That is why you can use ATF or Brake fluid to possibly free a sticking ring........look that up if you would like.
UOA-is used by the armed services--it is effective at detecting engine issues prior to regular service intervals--which gets even more complicated.....it isnt some dumb program the government came up with--it is a great program...
I wont get into how the government allocates expenses--it is to complicated to explain here.
Second-- engine failure wont be cut and dry--what you will see is elevated levels of metals as parts wear and that can give you an INDICATION of engine problems. So lets say AN UOA shows XXX lead--then more lead and then higher levels of other metals starting to increase--it doesnt mean the engine is going to fail in the next 100 hours of service--it means maybe you should look at the engine and make sure everything is ok.
Want a case scenario--timing chain on a 22re becomes so sloppy it starts to eat into the timing chain cover---HHHmmm would that increase Alum numbers? Do you know when it is going to exactly fail--no. Is it an indicator---.......Yes
Statistically speaking--Arent there upper and lower bounds for such levels based on the items mean??
Also, if an injector is leaking--it will leak the residual pressurized fuel onto the cylinder (granted valve it is open) and eventually bleed past the rings. RINGS seal via Compression and Pressure (The actual combustion process). That is why you can use ATF or Brake fluid to possibly free a sticking ring........look that up if you would like.
UOA-is used by the armed services--it is effective at detecting engine issues prior to regular service intervals--which gets even more complicated.....it isnt some dumb program the government came up with--it is a great program...
03-21-2010, 01:17 PM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Littleton Colorado
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey, thought that I would chime in on this one. I know a little about the yachting and aviation industries as my family has had multiple planes and yachts. In most cases to get a loan on a high dollar Airplane or yacht the finance company requires an analisys of the oil as well as professional interpertation of what the readings mean. I myself couldent begin to tell you what to do when certian levels change up or down but there are people who can. Yes is it a little over kill to get regular UOA on a motor that costs under 2k to completley rebuild, but on motors that cost 70k trust me it can be invaluable to know that you have premature bearing wear before your entire motor takes a dump, it allows you to do a rebuild before something catastrophic happens. After I do the rebuild on my 22re I will have my oil tested regularly just to give me a warm fussy feeling.
03-21-2010, 01:42 PM
#25
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Horn Lake, Mississippi
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I run 5w/30 royal purple in mine 
its exspensive but it has kept my truck alive!
I'm a first believer in Lucas oil additive , seafoam , & royal purple ;D
its exspensive but it has kept my truck alive!
I'm a first believer in Lucas oil additive , seafoam , & royal purple ;D
03-21-2010, 01:57 PM
#26
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Littleton Colorado
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was only trying to show that UOAs are legit and do have a purpose not only in those areas but also in the yotas as well. Besides the benifits of haveing an UOA applies to all motors, surley you saw the correlation. Further more I agree with you that it was over kill on a farley inexpensive motor, hence the "warm fuzzy" comment. BTW I was on topic more than the whole governemt issue! Hahaha
03-21-2010, 03:31 PM
#27
Contributing Member
In a major coolant leak, yes you will see oil levels go up and coolant levels go down when the leak has gotten to a serious point. But long before the leak has gotten to the level where you see coolant loss, a UOA can detect the small traces of ethylene glycol (coolant) that has leaked into the oil.
A diesel engine injector injects fuel directly into the cylinder unlike a gas engine which sprays the fuel into the air stream along the intake manifold. Because of this the injector is mounted directly into the cylinder head and sits between the top of the head and the valve cover with a fuel line sticking out of valve cover.
Well a defect in the injector caused it to start leaking at the seam and since the injector is between the valve cover and the head, the diesel ran down the injector and mixed with the oil going back to the pan.
As far as the levels of metals, different engines work better with different oils. In my 4runner I run mobile one synthetic 5W-40 Turbo diesel truck oil which has allot of ZDDP which is good for engines that don't have roller rockers IE the 5VZFE and it works great resulting in very low levels of metals.
On the other hand I run 5W-40 in my Jeep 4.0 engine and it sheds iron like crazy. But with normal dino 15W-40 Delvac in the jeep the iron levels are very low. So thought UOA you can find what oil works best with type of engine.
I know your going to ask why don't I just put in the oil the factory recommends. Well so many car markers have gone to recommending really thin junk oils because they bring up their CAFE rating at the cost of engine life.
FOG
A diesel engine injector injects fuel directly into the cylinder unlike a gas engine which sprays the fuel into the air stream along the intake manifold. Because of this the injector is mounted directly into the cylinder head and sits between the top of the head and the valve cover with a fuel line sticking out of valve cover.
Well a defect in the injector caused it to start leaking at the seam and since the injector is between the valve cover and the head, the diesel ran down the injector and mixed with the oil going back to the pan.
As far as the levels of metals, different engines work better with different oils. In my 4runner I run mobile one synthetic 5W-40 Turbo diesel truck oil which has allot of ZDDP which is good for engines that don't have roller rockers IE the 5VZFE and it works great resulting in very low levels of metals.
On the other hand I run 5W-40 in my Jeep 4.0 engine and it sheds iron like crazy. But with normal dino 15W-40 Delvac in the jeep the iron levels are very low. So thought UOA you can find what oil works best with type of engine.
I know your going to ask why don't I just put in the oil the factory recommends. Well so many car markers have gone to recommending really thin junk oils because they bring up their CAFE rating at the cost of engine life.
FOG
03-21-2010, 04:20 PM
#28
Registered User
No, I was not going to ask you that question.
Can you show me any evidence of your statement that
"so many car markers have gone to recommending really thin junk oils because they bring up their CAFE rating at the cost of engine life."
I've never heard of such a thing!!
Since the Asian car manufacturers are arguably the best manufacturers in the world, and have a very clear record of engine longevity --- And the Asian auto manufacturers have NEVER paid a penality for non-compliance with the CAFE regulations.... I don't think your CAFE statement means anything!!
That's just my worthless opinion.
Can you show me any evidence of your statement that
"so many car markers have gone to recommending really thin junk oils because they bring up their CAFE rating at the cost of engine life."
I've never heard of such a thing!!
Since the Asian car manufacturers are arguably the best manufacturers in the world, and have a very clear record of engine longevity --- And the Asian auto manufacturers have NEVER paid a penality for non-compliance with the CAFE regulations.... I don't think your CAFE statement means anything!!
That's just my worthless opinion.
The issue of oil weights has come under allot of scrutiny because a car maker can specify thinner oil (wonder why your seeing so many cars using 5W-20 oils) and get better gas mileage ratings on paper to boost their over all CAFE average.
In the real world going from a 30 weight to a 20 weight oil doesn't do anything for mileage, but on paper it and in a test lab it does and that's why so many car companies are going to it.
The thinner oils have less drag and because of that you can squeak out 1-2% more MPG in a lab testing enviroment. How ever these thinner oils do not hold up under harsh service and are highly prone to sherring vs a higher weight 30+ oil.
Go Google "CAFE thinner oils" and see what all comes up.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils (READ THE WHOLE PAGE)
"Ford is bumping up against its CAFE requirements and recommends SAE 5W-20 oil for most of its engines in the United States. It claims SAE 5W-20 is optimal for fuel efficiency and wear.
To determine if SAE 5W-20 oils provide the same level of protection as SAE 5W-30 oils, Dagenham Motors in England, one of the largest Ford dealers in Europe, was consulted. SAE 5W-30 is required for warranty purposes in England, and SAE 5W-20 is not even available. If SAE 5W-20 were better for both fuel economy and wear, why would Ford not recommend it for its same engines in Europe?
Oils recommended by the auto manufacturers seem to compromise protection from wear under severe conditions to gain fuel economy and catalyst durability......."
FOG
03-21-2010, 06:12 PM
#29
Contributing Member
There are also limitations put on oil formulations to extend cat life for CAFE standards. The car makers must follow.
Read more: http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html
The question of phosphorus and zinc.
Phosphorus (a component of ZDDP - Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate) is the key component for valve train protection in an engine and 1600ppm (parts per million) used to be the standard for phosphorus in engine oil. In 1996 the EPA forced that to be dropped to 800ppm and then more recently (2004?) to 400ppm - a quarter of the original spec. Valvetrains and their components are not especially cheap to replace and this drop in phosphorus content has been a problem for many engines (especially those with flat-tappet type cams). So why was the level dropped? Money. Next to lead, it's the second most destructive substance to shove through a catalytic converter. The US government mandated a 150,000 mile liftime on catalytic converters and the quickest way to do that was to drop phosphorous levels and bugger the valvetrain problem. Literally.
In the US, Mobil 1 originally came out with the 0W40 as a 'European Formula' as it was always above 1000 ppm. This initially got them out of the 1996 800ppm jam and knowledgeable consumers sought it out for obvious reasons. Their 15W50 has also maintained a very high level of phosphorus and all of the extended life Mobil synthetics now have at least 1000ppm. How do they get away with this? They're not classified as energy/fuel conserving oils and thus do not interfere with the precious government CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) ratings. (See my section on the EPA and fuel economy in the Fuel and Engine Bible for more info on this). This also means that they don't get the coveted ratings of other oils but they do protect your valvetrain. The same rule of thumb is true for racing oils like Royal Purple - because they're not classified as energy / fuel conserving, it would seem they still contain good quantities of ZDDP.
Phosphorus (a component of ZDDP - Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate) is the key component for valve train protection in an engine and 1600ppm (parts per million) used to be the standard for phosphorus in engine oil. In 1996 the EPA forced that to be dropped to 800ppm and then more recently (2004?) to 400ppm - a quarter of the original spec. Valvetrains and their components are not especially cheap to replace and this drop in phosphorus content has been a problem for many engines (especially those with flat-tappet type cams). So why was the level dropped? Money. Next to lead, it's the second most destructive substance to shove through a catalytic converter. The US government mandated a 150,000 mile liftime on catalytic converters and the quickest way to do that was to drop phosphorous levels and bugger the valvetrain problem. Literally.
In the US, Mobil 1 originally came out with the 0W40 as a 'European Formula' as it was always above 1000 ppm. This initially got them out of the 1996 800ppm jam and knowledgeable consumers sought it out for obvious reasons. Their 15W50 has also maintained a very high level of phosphorus and all of the extended life Mobil synthetics now have at least 1000ppm. How do they get away with this? They're not classified as energy/fuel conserving oils and thus do not interfere with the precious government CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) ratings. (See my section on the EPA and fuel economy in the Fuel and Engine Bible for more info on this). This also means that they don't get the coveted ratings of other oils but they do protect your valvetrain. The same rule of thumb is true for racing oils like Royal Purple - because they're not classified as energy / fuel conserving, it would seem they still contain good quantities of ZDDP.
03-21-2010, 06:27 PM
#30
Registered User
Phosphorus (a component of ZDDP - Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate) is the key component for valve train protection in an engine and 1600ppm (parts per million) used to be the standard for phosphorus in engine oil. In 1996 the EPA forced that to be dropped to 800ppm and then more recently (2004?) to 400ppm - a quarter of the original spec. Valvetrains and their components are not especially cheap to replace and this drop in phosphorus content has been a problem for many engines (especially those with flat-tappet type cams).
FOG
03-21-2010, 06:39 PM
#31
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: luna, nm
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I worked for CEMEX. we were required to do oil analysis on each and every vehicle in our fleets. the oil analysis was more helpful in early detection of major problems than anything else. We once had a truck come back with an analysis that stated we had coolant in the oil. we tore the oil pan off the truck, cleaned the system thoroughly, pressurized the system to operating pressure, and let it sit. Doing this test yielded ONE drop of coolant on that concrete below the truck. It was half the diameter of a dime at best. And this was over a 12 hour period. Oil analysis is a great tool when you are talking a lot of money at stake in an engine. i personally dont do this on my vehicles, i do however monitor my vehicles' fluid levels meticulously. As stated earlier in the forum, it is a great tool for selecting the proper oil for your application. this is just my prior experience with oil analysis and my two cents.
03-22-2010, 06:57 AM
#32
Registered User
Besides the detour--lets get the post back on topic ---
FYI--you can get ZDDP additive to add to your oil--ZDDP is great stuff. I rather replace the Cat than replace a motor
FYI--you can get ZDDP additive to add to your oil--ZDDP is great stuff. I rather replace the Cat than replace a motor
03-22-2010, 07:14 AM
#33
Contributing Member
Do be careful with additives, too much ZDDP can be bad too. I quote from this link: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...1600403&page=1
Yes! Over 2000 ppm (I'm not sure whether Zn or P, use Zn to be safe since it's ~10% higher) can attack camshaft lobes and cause catastrophic chunking. Be very careful with these additives. For example, ZDDPlus has 71800ppm Zn, 51500 ppm P. 30ml in 5qts will raise Zn ~450ppm, P300ppm. In a somewhat typical fairly weak 600ppm SM oil, that will raise Zn/P to "safe" levels of ~1100/900. Certainly add no more than 1/2 bottle (60ml) to get levels up to ~1600/1200. Remember, many Mobil 1s as an example are 900/800 at a minimum, HDEOs range from 900/800 (some CJ4s) to 1400/1300 (some CI4s).
STP was analyzed on the 1st page of the sticky of VOAs. It's <2000ppm undiluted and comes in a vehicle of very thick (~105 CsT @ 100 C.) oil. If you want to raise Zn/P carefully, use one of the more potent single-ingredient ones like ZDDPlus or Redline, know exactly what its' concentration is AND your oil's concentration, and do your sums carefully, recheck at least once. Too much of a good thing is very bad!
Maybe download (for $15) and read SAE technical article 2004-01-2986 "How much ZDP is enough", first.
Charlie
So make sure if you are going to play home chemist you know what levels you are adding and what levels you have already. Personally I'd say why play home chemist when there are still good oil formulations on the shelf.
Also keep in mind there are generally 3 anti wear additiives, and many that have lowered the ZDDP and added more of the 3rd one (moly) to "HELP" make up for it.
Originally Posted by m37charlie
Originally Posted by ADFD1
Any down side to too much ZDDP? Say 1 ounce/qt of the Red Line add?
AD
AD
STP was analyzed on the 1st page of the sticky of VOAs. It's <2000ppm undiluted and comes in a vehicle of very thick (~105 CsT @ 100 C.) oil. If you want to raise Zn/P carefully, use one of the more potent single-ingredient ones like ZDDPlus or Redline, know exactly what its' concentration is AND your oil's concentration, and do your sums carefully, recheck at least once. Too much of a good thing is very bad!
Maybe download (for $15) and read SAE technical article 2004-01-2986 "How much ZDP is enough", first.
Charlie
Also keep in mind there are generally 3 anti wear additiives, and many that have lowered the ZDDP and added more of the 3rd one (moly) to "HELP" make up for it.
PHOSPHORUS…………………………………..….ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVE
ZINC……………………………………………….…. ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVE
MOLBDENUM………………………………….…… ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVE
ZINC……………………………………………….…. ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVE
MOLBDENUM………………………………….…… ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVE
03-22-2010, 08:09 PM
#35
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gnarly wants facts boys! Facts he will never get...therefore we could keep arguing for the sake of it for 7 more pages. In fact, arguing is a good way to learn from each other as long as we keep it civil. Which we have, thank you mr. gnarls.
If Gnarly wants real life data that is statistically significant, here is what needs to happen: 2000 new car purchasers, of all different makes and models need to be divided into 2 groups. Each test group would consist of 1000 vehicles. Group 1 (we'll call them "Average Joe") is only allowed to run the cheapest dino oil available, and only in the factory spec weight. Group 2 (we'll call them "Car Guys") is allowed to run premium, full synthetic oil in any weight they deem best. OCI's will be 3000 miles for both groups.
Now....this test will take about 10-20 years....and we must keep tabs on every vehicle the whole time. But after 20 years, we will see which engines have failed when and how. Then we will compare data between the "Average Joe" and the "Car Guys".
BUT. This test will never happen, and the people that do have engines go "blam blooey" on them prematurely don't know or care enough to do UOA's in the first place. They don't even know why the car goes faster when they push on the "gas". Or that tires and wheels are separate entities. So you've got your mass of american super-slab clogging drivers blowing engines up at 100K miles, but are they on our nice technical forums telling us about it? Nope.
UOA's simply give you information. They tell you how many ppm of iron was in that little sample of oil. Great. What does it mean? Well, you tell me. To me, it means I'm going to shorten my OCI and see the result. If it changes, then I just learned something. I learned that a shorter OCI results in less iron. Does less iron mean a healthier engine that will last longer? Maybe, maybe not. But I choose to do what I think is best based on the information provided to me. I'm the expert on my truck, just like you're the expert on your truck and Fog is the expert on his truck. If you don't want to do UOA's fine. But I do, so I will.
If Gnarly wants real life data that is statistically significant, here is what needs to happen: 2000 new car purchasers, of all different makes and models need to be divided into 2 groups. Each test group would consist of 1000 vehicles. Group 1 (we'll call them "Average Joe") is only allowed to run the cheapest dino oil available, and only in the factory spec weight. Group 2 (we'll call them "Car Guys") is allowed to run premium, full synthetic oil in any weight they deem best. OCI's will be 3000 miles for both groups.
Now....this test will take about 10-20 years....and we must keep tabs on every vehicle the whole time. But after 20 years, we will see which engines have failed when and how. Then we will compare data between the "Average Joe" and the "Car Guys".
BUT. This test will never happen, and the people that do have engines go "blam blooey" on them prematurely don't know or care enough to do UOA's in the first place. They don't even know why the car goes faster when they push on the "gas". Or that tires and wheels are separate entities. So you've got your mass of american super-slab clogging drivers blowing engines up at 100K miles, but are they on our nice technical forums telling us about it? Nope.
UOA's simply give you information. They tell you how many ppm of iron was in that little sample of oil. Great. What does it mean? Well, you tell me. To me, it means I'm going to shorten my OCI and see the result. If it changes, then I just learned something. I learned that a shorter OCI results in less iron. Does less iron mean a healthier engine that will last longer? Maybe, maybe not. But I choose to do what I think is best based on the information provided to me. I'm the expert on my truck, just like you're the expert on your truck and Fog is the expert on his truck. If you don't want to do UOA's fine. But I do, so I will.
03-23-2010, 06:06 AM
#36
Registered User
I worked for Air Force Audit Agency for some time --Tom Vaden (Highly respected statisticians on the west coast) was the statistician for our us. (You can google him if you like.
Anyways--trolling as in your tone (Henry anybody with a three digit IQ)....if we would have been face to face....hmmm
What i am saying here is it is a proven fact and affective program used by the armed services. I had access to that data and reports and programs.....but that was sometime ago.
You also blatantly ignored the FACTS of a failing/failed timing chain cover example and changed the subject--that is a marine tactic by the way...
And here is a frickin article: Third paragraph Gnarly--
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...e-base-in-guam
I will except your apology whenever you are ready!!
I agree that debate is good for knowledge--but listening is also important
Anyways--trolling as in your tone (Henry anybody with a three digit IQ)....if we would have been face to face....hmmm
What i am saying here is it is a proven fact and affective program used by the armed services. I had access to that data and reports and programs.....but that was sometime ago.
You also blatantly ignored the FACTS of a failing/failed timing chain cover example and changed the subject--that is a marine tactic by the way...
And here is a frickin article: Third paragraph Gnarly--
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...e-base-in-guam
I will except your apology whenever you are ready!!
I agree that debate is good for knowledge--but listening is also important
03-23-2010, 06:08 AM
#37
Registered User
Now would i do an AN oil analysis constantly--no--if level started getting crazy--would i break into the motor?? Maybe or maybe not--but i wouldnt take it across country and maybe start preparing for a motor R&R
03-23-2010, 06:17 PM
#40
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Littleton Colorado
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It knocks at lower rpm with load on the motor. It is almost not noticable unless its being driven. Also my oil preasure seems a little low, I have changed to oil recently and currently using mobil 5-30 full syn I was thinking of puting a new oil pump in it just incase the knock was caused by low oil preasure.
