New Member. 12 Years Dealer Experience.
02-24-2003, 06:27 PM
#61
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Well.... Toyota and TRD are two seperate identities. I understand the mess this makes.
I have seen plug and play bolt on performance. So that leads me to believe there is either one of few things going on....
a) Something is wrong with your supercharger.
b) Something is improperly installed.
c) The fuel your using is not adiquate.
As of this writting I am unaware of your location. I think there has been some discovery the altittude has been a problem??
But admittingly, I am not a performance guru. I myself dislike having to install one. (edit : As a tech I have never installed one. But have been involved in the install as a Service Rep.) Luckily, I have not been involved in a dis-satisfied customer case where a supercharger was involved.
Until today, I had not read this post. I was unaware or your troubles, nor the hoops youve been jumping through. I can only hope there is a simple solution to your woes.
I have seen plug and play bolt on performance. So that leads me to believe there is either one of few things going on....
a) Something is wrong with your supercharger.
b) Something is improperly installed.
c) The fuel your using is not adiquate.
As of this writting I am unaware of your location. I think there has been some discovery the altittude has been a problem??
But admittingly, I am not a performance guru. I myself dislike having to install one. (edit : As a tech I have never installed one. But have been involved in the install as a Service Rep.) Luckily, I have not been involved in a dis-satisfied customer case where a supercharger was involved.
Until today, I had not read this post. I was unaware or your troubles, nor the hoops youve been jumping through. I can only hope there is a simple solution to your woes.
Last edited by Jay; 02-24-2003 at 06:30 PM.
02-24-2003, 07:24 PM
#62
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Hello and welcome and, of course, a question 
I have an '85 4Runner with an LCEngineering EFI Pro 22re motor. Balanced, blueprinted, oversized pistons, oversized valves, ported, polished and all that nonsense. From the time it was set up, it was running way too rich. Eventually that was cured by not messing with the MAS (as suggested by LC) and the ECU was reprogrammed to match the engine. This cured the problem, but apparently too late. Of late, I had oil in the antifreeze, but apparently not the other way around and oil running down the block between the head and timing cover and down the back of the engine.
I had the head pulled and valve job done and replaced the headgasket thinking that was the problem. I figured the rings were probably pretty washed out, but the blowby didn't seem that bad and there was little to no smoke while driving so I didn't have anything done to the bottom end. Now, after having the work done, I have antifreeze getting pumped out the overflow reservoir and oil still running down the block in the same places. It has never overheated (unless the heat sending unit is showing remarkably low readings) or been run out of oil.
Any opines? I am thinking the block may be cracked (bored over with 94mm pistons) and I am going to have to replace the block and redo the bottom end. Agreeing won't break my heart, it'll just give me a place to start LOL!
Any info would be appreciated. I hope you don't get totally overrun by questions!
I have an '85 4Runner with an LCEngineering EFI Pro 22re motor. Balanced, blueprinted, oversized pistons, oversized valves, ported, polished and all that nonsense. From the time it was set up, it was running way too rich. Eventually that was cured by not messing with the MAS (as suggested by LC) and the ECU was reprogrammed to match the engine. This cured the problem, but apparently too late. Of late, I had oil in the antifreeze, but apparently not the other way around and oil running down the block between the head and timing cover and down the back of the engine.
I had the head pulled and valve job done and replaced the headgasket thinking that was the problem. I figured the rings were probably pretty washed out, but the blowby didn't seem that bad and there was little to no smoke while driving so I didn't have anything done to the bottom end. Now, after having the work done, I have antifreeze getting pumped out the overflow reservoir and oil still running down the block in the same places. It has never overheated (unless the heat sending unit is showing remarkably low readings) or been run out of oil.
Any opines? I am thinking the block may be cracked (bored over with 94mm pistons) and I am going to have to replace the block and redo the bottom end. Agreeing won't break my heart, it'll just give me a place to start LOL!
Any info would be appreciated. I hope you don't get totally overrun by questions!
02-25-2003, 02:46 AM
#63
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Originally posted by Jay
Well.... Toyota and TRD are two seperate identities. I understand the mess this makes.
I have seen plug and play bolt on performance. So that leads me to believe there is either one of few things going on....
a) Something is wrong with your supercharger.
b) Something is improperly installed.
c) The fuel your using is not adiquate.
As of this writting I am unaware of your location. I think there has been some discovery the altittude has been a problem??
But admittingly, I am not a performance guru. I myself dislike having to install one. (edit : As a tech I have never installed one. But have been involved in the install as a Service Rep.) Luckily, I have not been involved in a dis-satisfied customer case where a supercharger was involved.
Until today, I had not read this post. I was unaware or your troubles, nor the hoops youve been jumping through. I can only hope there is a simple solution to your woes.
Well.... Toyota and TRD are two seperate identities. I understand the mess this makes.
I have seen plug and play bolt on performance. So that leads me to believe there is either one of few things going on....
a) Something is wrong with your supercharger.
b) Something is improperly installed.
c) The fuel your using is not adiquate.
As of this writting I am unaware of your location. I think there has been some discovery the altittude has been a problem??
But admittingly, I am not a performance guru. I myself dislike having to install one. (edit : As a tech I have never installed one. But have been involved in the install as a Service Rep.) Luckily, I have not been involved in a dis-satisfied customer case where a supercharger was involved.
Until today, I had not read this post. I was unaware or your troubles, nor the hoops youve been jumping through. I can only hope there is a simple solution to your woes.
Yeah, this is turning into an odyssey, but not one that I am unfamiliar with the car game. I have been playing with cars and dealers (cars that is
) for many years, and I never leave anything alone. 
Prior to the installation, I put together a complete manual for them with all related FSM pages, hi-lited critical information, reviewed the installation procedure with them and emphasized the critical points as I saw them. I also insisted upon having their best tech work on the installation. They never had a customer be as concerned or as thorough as I was. I told them if it were not for the fact that I wanted the warranty coverage I would have done the job myself. Heck, the nicest thing about the SC is the way it installs, even Stevie Wonder could install this thing. However, the tech left a nipple off of one of the vacuum ports on the TB, and it threw a trouble code for a lean condition. I have reviewed the installation procedure and cannot find a problem, but I have not checked for a vacuum leak at any of the intake gaskets. They did tell me they used the correct gaskets. I have also posed the question to them that perhaps the SC or one of its components is defective. As for fuel, I use only premium Mobil gasoline.
As for my location, I live on the east coast at dead sea level. :alien: I am getting 15.5 mpg around town and 18.5 mpg on the highway driving modestly with great restraint. I was aware that altitude has been a problem for some people.
Now here is a question for you. I think I am within my rights to ask the dealer to cover the costs of installing the plugs and thermostat as a means to solve the problem with the SC. The vehicle is a new '02 with 4000 miles on it and I have the Platinum warranty w/ a zero dollar deductible. After all, if there is a problem with the operation, and they deem it necessary to install those parts to solve the problem, why should I pay for the work?
Thanks for your inputs ... are we having fun yet?
02-25-2003, 06:11 AM
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Hi Jay,
I just wanted to ask a simple question to you and anyone who may know the answer. My fan speed selector by the A/C button works in all speeds except the third one. Asked a buddy who was a Toyota tech a few years back and he said relay pack. Then he looked under the dash but no relay pack to be found. Where is it? I noticed several wires leading to the fan box - do I have to remove the fan box to replace this inexpensive part?
I just wanted to ask a simple question to you and anyone who may know the answer. My fan speed selector by the A/C button works in all speeds except the third one. Asked a buddy who was a Toyota tech a few years back and he said relay pack. Then he looked under the dash but no relay pack to be found. Where is it? I noticed several wires leading to the fan box - do I have to remove the fan box to replace this inexpensive part?
02-25-2003, 07:40 AM
#66
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Originally posted by Dr. Zhivago
Actually, compared to Copper, Aluminum is a poor conductor of heat, which is what my statement refers to. Aluminum is cheaper to make heatsinks out of and weighs less, which is why it is in more common use. I have a copper heatsink made by CoolerMaster. It sits on top of my processor, which sits in my Epox motherboard inside my CoolerMaster All Aluminum case. I have the ATC-201c, except when I bought it 2 years ago, it was just the ATC-201 and it didn't have any siblings.
However, when not compared to Copper, Aluminum works better than a lot of other materials.
Peace!
Dr. Z
Actually, compared to Copper, Aluminum is a poor conductor of heat, which is what my statement refers to. Aluminum is cheaper to make heatsinks out of and weighs less, which is why it is in more common use. I have a copper heatsink made by CoolerMaster. It sits on top of my processor, which sits in my Epox motherboard inside my CoolerMaster All Aluminum case. I have the ATC-201c, except when I bought it 2 years ago, it was just the ATC-201 and it didn't have any siblings.
However, when not compared to Copper, Aluminum works better than a lot of other materials.
Peace!
Dr. Z
Last edited by keisur; 02-25-2003 at 07:43 AM.
02-25-2003, 10:13 AM
#67
Registered User
Thread Starter
I just wanted to ask a simple question to you and anyone who may know the answer. My fan speed selector by the A/C button works in all speeds except the third one. Asked a buddy who was a Toyota tech a few years back and he said relay pack. Then he looked under the dash but no relay pack to be found. Where is it? I noticed several wires leading to the fan box - do I have to remove the fan box to replace this inexpensive part?
However, you state the fan works in all but the third one, which I assume is medium-high. (Low, medium, med-high, high) The resistors are in series to one another, meaning that if there was a problem with the med-high resistor, you would loose all speeds below it. Id presume you might have another problem.
02-25-2003, 10:23 AM
#68
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Thread Starter
I think I am within my rights to ask the dealer to cover the costs of installing the plugs and thermostat as a means to solve the problem with the SC. The vehicle is a new '02 with 4000 miles on it and I have the Platinum warranty w/ a zero dollar deductible. After all, if there is a problem with the operation, and they deem it necessary to install those parts to solve the problem, why should I pay for the work?
02-25-2003, 10:38 AM
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Thankyou Jay. I'll check the wiring from the blower motor resistor back to the switch with an ohmmeter. If all checks well then I'll assume that the switch has a worn contact and get a new one.
02-25-2003, 10:44 AM
#70
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Thread Starter
After all, if there is a problem with the operation, and they deem it necessary to install those parts to solve the problem, why should I pay for the work?
Have you spoke to TRD? Has Gadget not exhausted this dilemma with them already?
02-25-2003, 12:10 PM
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Preparation of Fax
Dr.Z, Jay, et al ...
Here is the draft of a fax I am preparing to send to my dealer rep prior to my appointment on Friday:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Interest in our dilemma with the TRD Supercharger is increasing among the membership of a couple of the Toyota 4Runner based Internet boards. I have learned that my thought about wanting to have the Supercharger removed is not far fetched because another dealer had to do the same thing for other customers who were dissatisfied and believed that the unit was not as advertised and misrepresented. It is becoming increasingly clear that the TRD supercharger does not function properly linked to the stock ECU program.
As you know, I have an appointment with you for this Friday, February 28th. I will be taking a 6:00AM boat from Martha’s Vineyard and expect to be at your shop by about 8:30AM. I have two requests: If the appointment is going to take a long time, I would like the use of a car so that I do not have to sit in your reception area all day. My other request is in the form of a question. I preface by saying that I did not install the new NGK one step colder plugs because I wanted you review the problem as it now exists. I am sure that you will determine that the colder range plugs are necessary. You may even want to install the lower temperature TRD thermostat; however, as a rule that is not necessarily considered a solution for these problems. That being said, I request that those changes be covered under my vehicle warranty. The vehicle presently has just over 4000 miles on the odometer.
Three problem areas have been suggested by several on the boards including a Toyota tech with 12 years experience:
1) Fuel quality
2) Vacuum/ Boost leak
3) Defective Supercharger or related part
a. Faulty fuel regulator
b. Bypass valve
I have been using Mobil Premium gasoline from various service stations so that is not the problem.
We feel, given data that has been collected by several owners with diagnostic equipment that can read fuel mapping and timing that there clearly is a serious lean condition. In the midrange between about 1800 rpms and 2300 rpms during normal cruise conditions where the part throttle advance is over 30 degrees advance is where pre-ignition occurs most of the time. This you may say is due to EPA constraints; however, with a Supercharger, this is considered to be far too much advance. I may not be articulating this clearly to you. I am not an engineer with complete understanding of all systems, but you get the idea. I am also experiencing a pulsating during WOT acceleration that in my experience with other vehicles is indicative of a lean condition and improper tuning. This may be due to boost leakage or blower surge caused by the bypass valve opening and closing. I have also experienced a loud popping at times, like a backfire sound, when I mashed the pedal to the floor.
The general consensus is, if there is a problem with the Supercharger’s lack of compatibility for performance minded owners, who intend to do other modifications not only in the exhaust system (ie: TRD headers and catback systems) but in the intake system (ie: free-flow filters or opening the airbox), Toyota should offer an ECU performance upgrade or re-flash that provides the proper fuel mapping and timing to allow the Supercharger to operate without risk to engine life.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Okay, I think I am covering issues pretty well, but if Dr. Z and Jay see any errors in my description, please respond ASAP.
Also, take a look at this website and LMK what you think.
www.hksusa.com
Here is the draft of a fax I am preparing to send to my dealer rep prior to my appointment on Friday:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Interest in our dilemma with the TRD Supercharger is increasing among the membership of a couple of the Toyota 4Runner based Internet boards. I have learned that my thought about wanting to have the Supercharger removed is not far fetched because another dealer had to do the same thing for other customers who were dissatisfied and believed that the unit was not as advertised and misrepresented. It is becoming increasingly clear that the TRD supercharger does not function properly linked to the stock ECU program.
As you know, I have an appointment with you for this Friday, February 28th. I will be taking a 6:00AM boat from Martha’s Vineyard and expect to be at your shop by about 8:30AM. I have two requests: If the appointment is going to take a long time, I would like the use of a car so that I do not have to sit in your reception area all day. My other request is in the form of a question. I preface by saying that I did not install the new NGK one step colder plugs because I wanted you review the problem as it now exists. I am sure that you will determine that the colder range plugs are necessary. You may even want to install the lower temperature TRD thermostat; however, as a rule that is not necessarily considered a solution for these problems. That being said, I request that those changes be covered under my vehicle warranty. The vehicle presently has just over 4000 miles on the odometer.
Three problem areas have been suggested by several on the boards including a Toyota tech with 12 years experience:
1) Fuel quality
2) Vacuum/ Boost leak
3) Defective Supercharger or related part
a. Faulty fuel regulator
b. Bypass valve
I have been using Mobil Premium gasoline from various service stations so that is not the problem.
We feel, given data that has been collected by several owners with diagnostic equipment that can read fuel mapping and timing that there clearly is a serious lean condition. In the midrange between about 1800 rpms and 2300 rpms during normal cruise conditions where the part throttle advance is over 30 degrees advance is where pre-ignition occurs most of the time. This you may say is due to EPA constraints; however, with a Supercharger, this is considered to be far too much advance. I may not be articulating this clearly to you. I am not an engineer with complete understanding of all systems, but you get the idea. I am also experiencing a pulsating during WOT acceleration that in my experience with other vehicles is indicative of a lean condition and improper tuning. This may be due to boost leakage or blower surge caused by the bypass valve opening and closing. I have also experienced a loud popping at times, like a backfire sound, when I mashed the pedal to the floor.
The general consensus is, if there is a problem with the Supercharger’s lack of compatibility for performance minded owners, who intend to do other modifications not only in the exhaust system (ie: TRD headers and catback systems) but in the intake system (ie: free-flow filters or opening the airbox), Toyota should offer an ECU performance upgrade or re-flash that provides the proper fuel mapping and timing to allow the Supercharger to operate without risk to engine life.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Okay, I think I am covering issues pretty well, but if Dr. Z and Jay see any errors in my description, please respond ASAP.
Also, take a look at this website and LMK what you think.
www.hksusa.com
02-25-2003, 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by Jay
I saw this comming years ago... when I first heard about the dealer installing superchargers offered by TRD. The Factory warranty does not pay the dealer to attempt to fix your car. If there is a problem with the design of the TRD supercharger, or the compability with the powertrain (as many threads on this board point out) youll find little help out of the factory warranty, or extended warranty.
Have you spoke to TRD? Has Gadget not exhausted this dilemma with them already?
I saw this comming years ago... when I first heard about the dealer installing superchargers offered by TRD. The Factory warranty does not pay the dealer to attempt to fix your car. If there is a problem with the design of the TRD supercharger, or the compability with the powertrain (as many threads on this board point out) youll find little help out of the factory warranty, or extended warranty.
Have you spoke to TRD? Has Gadget not exhausted this dilemma with them already?
02-25-2003, 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by Jay
Keep us informed on how they fix the problem then.
Keep us informed on how they fix the problem then.
That's a-l-l you've got to say? In that case I am going to keep this all to myself.
:pat:
02-26-2003, 12:03 AM
#75
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That's a-l-l you've got to say?
Perhaps I lend myself to this sort of stuff due to the avatar I choose.
Good luck.
02-26-2003, 02:56 AM
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Originally posted by Jay
Well, I lost the impression my advice was needed. I dont feel like pointing fingers. I also dont care to be so heavily involved in an issue, where direct mention of me is used in a case I know nothing about. It appears to me, I am only fuel for your fire.
Perhaps I lend myself to this sort of stuff due to the avatar I choose.
Good luck.
Well, I lost the impression my advice was needed. I dont feel like pointing fingers. I also dont care to be so heavily involved in an issue, where direct mention of me is used in a case I know nothing about. It appears to me, I am only fuel for your fire.
Perhaps I lend myself to this sort of stuff due to the avatar I choose.
Good luck.
Jay, I know that this subject is too dicey for you ... I was just busting your balls, BUT, since I am not as experienced as you are, what I DID want was for someone to proof read my words to see if the mechanical explanations are half way intelligent and/or accurate mechanically.
I have to use any hook I can to give me some credence with these people whether it is the unidentified word of one of Toyota's own or a constituency from the boards. If you don't have strength in numbers, you have bubkis.
02-26-2003, 03:42 AM
#77
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Avatar? You are an "incarnation" of what?
I am wondering what you implied by this statement. Nothing worse than an insult you dont recognize.
02-26-2003, 04:04 AM
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Originally posted by Jay
The picture located below a persons name is refered to as an avatar. I had choosen a picture of a patch showing my status within the toyota training program.
I am wondering what you implied by this statement. Nothing worse than an insult you dont recognize.
The picture located below a persons name is refered to as an avatar. I had choosen a picture of a patch showing my status within the toyota training program.
I am wondering what you implied by this statement. Nothing worse than an insult you dont recognize.
I never mean any disrespect to anyone unless I come right out and call them an :ahole: ... and then that would REALLY be the pot calling the kettle black.
I knew what you were referring to but thought I would continue the dictionary rhetoric with you, just for fun. :rolleyes:Jay, to get back to the Fax I want to send out today; I would appreciate it if you would review what I said and see if "technically" what I am describing makes sense. I am not asking for you to get envolved in the moral or ethical aspects of this issue. I can understand it is uncomfortable and compromises your professional position. I was hoping that Galen would also give me some feedback, but I guess he's hung up somewhere in the outback on a rock ledge or has raced South to Dallas to do some Ice 4-wheeling.
Did you take a look at the url I included in that post? I haven't done a search to see if that Mfg is old news for the board, but because they have a dealer in Connecticut they were of interest to me. I still don't want to introduce all those piggy back bandaid units because of what it would do to the warranty ... and that is not what I agreed to consider when I signed on for the SC installation. I will probably do a full court press to get the thing taken off if I do not get satisfaction soon. I am not going to trash this engine for some vanilla piece of crap that doesn't do much more than upset the serenity of the 4Runner driving experience.
02-26-2003, 04:15 AM
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Wow, this thread is a head scratcher.
I don't blame Jay one bit for washing his hands of the S/C issue. He can't fix it from 3000 miles away. Give the guy a break. He has better things to do with his free time. The pointed questions being asked may be more likely to drive him away from our message boards. Don't bite the hand that feeds you to put it bluntly.
If you go into a dealer's service dept. demanding that they do a bunch of stuff for free that you heard about on the internet, I doubt they would be very happy with you. Likewise saying stuff like, "A mechanic on the internet with 12 years of experience says it might be...", probably won't win you much respect either.
That's all I have to say about that for now.
I don't blame Jay one bit for washing his hands of the S/C issue. He can't fix it from 3000 miles away. Give the guy a break. He has better things to do with his free time. The pointed questions being asked may be more likely to drive him away from our message boards. Don't bite the hand that feeds you to put it bluntly.
If you go into a dealer's service dept. demanding that they do a bunch of stuff for free that you heard about on the internet, I doubt they would be very happy with you. Likewise saying stuff like, "A mechanic on the internet with 12 years of experience says it might be...", probably won't win you much respect either.
That's all I have to say about that for now.
02-26-2003, 04:20 AM
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