Brake pedal goes all the way to the floor
12-27-2006, 06:47 PM
#21
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thats a pretty harsh statement right there. Did you even read the post?
On another note, if you found a leaky point try to find exactly where it is coming from and fix it! M/C should not be 1900 bucks they probably thought you were talking about an ABS modulator or something. Your getting bent over if your being charged 1900
12-27-2006, 07:19 PM
#22
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hot a$$ PHX
Posts: 1,753
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the love guys, show me some proof that toyota techs dont know anything. At my shop we look at every angle of the problem and if we cant find anything wrong then well start replacing parts. Rarely and i mean rarely do we get a car that we just guess and replace, sometimes thats how it has to be. Id appreciate it if you guys wouldnt put down every other toyota dealer just because your dealership stinks, hell it could even be a service writer that has no clue what their talking about. We have a couple of those. But come on guys.
N E Ways back on topic 2marrow
12-27-2006, 08:30 PM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the love guys, show me some proof that toyota techs dont know anything. At my shop we look at every angle of the problem and if we cant find anything wrong then well start replacing parts. Rarely and i mean rarely do we get a car that we just guess and replace, sometimes thats how it has to be. Id appreciate it if you guys wouldnt put down every other toyota dealer just because your dealership stinks, hell it could even be a service writer that has no clue what their talking about. We have a couple of those. But come on guys.
12-28-2006, 02:45 PM
#25
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hot a$$ PHX
Posts: 1,753
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okay so I re-bled the brake lines today and here is what I got. The fronts were air free, I ran about 8oz of fluid through the lines. The rears however went a little different. There was no air at first (about 3oz) then there were a bunch of tiny bubbles, I thought maybe they were getting in through the threads, but this seemed impossible as I was running pressure not suction. So I just kept going after about 10oz at each rear .
I went LR, RR, RF, LF is this correct? is there any other place I should be bleeding?
The pedal still goes to the floor and braking is still crap compared to what it used to be.
Thanks
I went LR, RR, RF, LF is this correct? is there any other place I should be bleeding?
The pedal still goes to the floor and braking is still crap compared to what it used to be.
Thanks
12-28-2006, 02:57 PM
#26
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hot a$$ PHX
Posts: 1,753
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
just called my local Toyota shop and they said that because i have ABS they have to hook it up to a hand held electronic type device and then bleed it that way. Can anyone confirm this for me. looks like they want 300+ for this job. Man this sucks as this is my wifes car and she needs it to haul the kids around, and I don't want to cut corners on their saftey. I guess I'll just have to take it in.
12-28-2006, 02:58 PM
#27
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Connecticut (NY State of Mind)
Posts: 452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Could have a tiny leak at a rusty spot or any other. If there is no leak out then I doubt you are sucking air in. Look for what is leaking out when pushing on the brakes.
12-28-2006, 04:10 PM
#28
Contributing Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the love guys, show me some proof that toyota techs dont know anything. At my shop we look at every angle of the problem and if we cant find anything wrong then well start replacing parts. Rarely and i mean rarely do we get a car that we just guess and replace, sometimes thats how it has to be. Id appreciate it if you guys wouldnt put down every other toyota dealer just because your dealership stinks, hell it could even be a service writer that has no clue what their talking about. We have a couple of those. But come on guys.
I'm a Certified Master Tech, so I do know my stuff, but at the time I didn't bother to learn about my 4runner, lesson learned. Now I can figure out most problems in a heartbeat. With the P0171 code the mechanic should have known that the probable cause was the MAF sensor and replaced it right away, before testing anything else. Then if the problem persisted go to the next probable cause. They instead charged me to hook up to their OBDII scanner and then failed to fix my rig, not only that but stripped out the screws holding in the MAF sensor and didn't bother to put in new ones. My proof is my reciepts for service rendered and all the additional charges that weren't needed to fix the initial problem.
The cost for my problem should have been for a simple replacement of the MAF sensor + Labor, at the most a 1/2 hour charge, not the over $700 I ended up paying.
12-28-2006, 04:18 PM
#29
Contributing Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
just called my local Toyota shop and they said that because i have ABS they have to hook it up to a hand held electronic type device and then bleed it that way. Can anyone confirm this for me. looks like they want 300+ for this job. Man this sucks as this is my wifes car and she needs it to haul the kids around, and I don't want to cut corners on their saftey. I guess I'll just have to take it in.
Last edited by BruceTS; 12-28-2006 at 07:12 PM.
12-28-2006, 04:52 PM
#30
Contributing Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Smoky San Diego
Posts: 2,346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe the 2001 4Runners have independent front and rear brakes lines from the MC so you shouldn't have to keep bleeding the fronts.
yota krazy - It's the A-TRAC, ABS, and VSC stuff that makes the 2001's MC cost so darn much. That and he said it was a quote from the stealership so there's a bit of labor figured in.
yota krazy - It's the A-TRAC, ABS, and VSC stuff that makes the 2001's MC cost so darn much. That and he said it was a quote from the stealership so there's a bit of labor figured in.
Last edited by Tanto; 12-28-2006 at 04:57 PM.
12-28-2006, 06:21 PM
#32
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hot a$$ PHX
Posts: 1,753
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okay I went reatarded for a moment and forgot that I had downloaded the FSM. So after checking it the FSM said bleed FR, FL, then rears. It didn't say which rear first so I just hooked up the home made power bleeder and did both rears at the same time. Bled about 1qrt total for rears no air bubbles. Pedal can still pe pushed all the way down, but brakes grab in 1-2 inches of being pushed. Went to some dirt and ABS works, I'm wondering if that is the best it will be. I'm gonna take it to the mechanic my father-in-law uses in a few days.
Also I crawled under the 4Runner while I had the power bleeder set to 12-15 psi and there are no leaks. I might have to try the meathod BruceTS did with power bleeder and brakes being pushed in. I will keep you guys posted on everything until it gets to 100%
thanks again Yotatech
Also I crawled under the 4Runner while I had the power bleeder set to 12-15 psi and there are no leaks. I might have to try the meathod BruceTS did with power bleeder and brakes being pushed in. I will keep you guys posted on everything until it gets to 100%
thanks again Yotatech
12-28-2006, 08:06 PM
#33
Registered User
12-28-2006, 08:29 PM
#34
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hot a$$ PHX
Posts: 1,753
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
12-28-2006, 11:35 PM
#35
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fwiw, time is money. A good tech will try his best to replace things in the order of the most probable to least probable culprit, but each time that they replace something (broken or not) that's money out of your wallet for time AND materials.
ALL commercial shops work like this, Toyota, Ford, GM, etc. If the tech works on your rig, YOU are on the clock. If he replaces something that ends up not broken, that new piece will remain in your rig and you'll be billed for it.
Many times shops will cap the labor rates based on a national average, so "Diagnose mushy brakes" may cap at 5 hours labor, but that's still $500 in LABOR alone, not to mention the tech replacing the MC, maybe a caliper, then a hardline only to end up finding a pin leak in a hardline on a different wheel.
What you're hoping for in finding a "good" tech is one that won't charge you for his/her diagnostic time, only for the time spent in replacing parts. Then, you're looking for someone with enough experience and/or forethought that they'll find that bleeder being before they replace a caliper 'cause it looks like it has brake fluid on it.
Something else - in a commercial dealership, the tech is NOT responsible for making the call on what gets replaced. In fact, many times a tech will get reprimanded if they do diagnostic work that isn't "spec'd". The guy you're looking for is the "Service Advisor", they're the ones that are on the front lines dealing with people coming in saying "my brakes are mushy". They're supposed to personally spend the time figuring out what's wrong, and/or getting a tech involved to open up the car and look around. BUT again, time is money. If the SA grabs a tech to spend an hour looking at your car before checking it in, then that's a hour's worth of service income that's pulled from the dealer's pocket.
Remember that the dealer is in it to make money, and the biggest money maker is the service department.
ALL commercial shops work like this, Toyota, Ford, GM, etc. If the tech works on your rig, YOU are on the clock. If he replaces something that ends up not broken, that new piece will remain in your rig and you'll be billed for it.
Many times shops will cap the labor rates based on a national average, so "Diagnose mushy brakes" may cap at 5 hours labor, but that's still $500 in LABOR alone, not to mention the tech replacing the MC, maybe a caliper, then a hardline only to end up finding a pin leak in a hardline on a different wheel.
What you're hoping for in finding a "good" tech is one that won't charge you for his/her diagnostic time, only for the time spent in replacing parts. Then, you're looking for someone with enough experience and/or forethought that they'll find that bleeder being before they replace a caliper 'cause it looks like it has brake fluid on it.
Something else - in a commercial dealership, the tech is NOT responsible for making the call on what gets replaced. In fact, many times a tech will get reprimanded if they do diagnostic work that isn't "spec'd". The guy you're looking for is the "Service Advisor", they're the ones that are on the front lines dealing with people coming in saying "my brakes are mushy". They're supposed to personally spend the time figuring out what's wrong, and/or getting a tech involved to open up the car and look around. BUT again, time is money. If the SA grabs a tech to spend an hour looking at your car before checking it in, then that's a hour's worth of service income that's pulled from the dealer's pocket.
Remember that the dealer is in it to make money, and the biggest money maker is the service department.
I myself being personally involved for many years at a dealership.. A highly trained and seasoned mechanic has a systematic approach to diagnosising problems. And it does not begin with just replacing parts.
The tech has the responsibilty for staying in certain guidelines to protect the customer and to make a profit.
A customer should be fairly charged for diagnosising their problems. Techs spend time going through service manuals and hooking up diagnostic equiptment which takes time, their time is money. A tech also spends a lot of time going to training and keeping up with the latest technology, we all now how complex vehicles have become.
I never heard of any service advisor being smarter than the techs and telling them how to do their job , no tech would put up with that B.S. for a second. The SA don't have extended knowledge about cars. And if they are telling you what's wrong with your car up front, they are doing you a disservice and putting the dealership reputation at risk.That is why they are service writers and not techs.
Most service dept. are there for service for the customer and generally not a high profit maker. The new and used car dept is where the $$$$ is for the store. Bottom line if the dealership is ripping customer off, they are not going to be in bussiness for long.
If you are getting over charged for something at the dealership.
1-They have a untrained staff and are full of excuses.
2-You are letting it happen. (get a estimate, see the service manager, owner etc.)
3.You need to get clearification on what's going on.
12-30-2006, 06:24 PM
#36
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
arggh...i am having the same exact problem. i did all the brakes today, bled the crap out of them. there is no air and the pedal still feels like ลลลล. maybe i'll try the one man bleeder thing tomorrow. if not i'll wait till work on tuesday to use our scanner and do the abs bleed if i can figure it out. oh and my brake light is on, is yours?
12-30-2006, 09:21 PM
#37
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hot a$$ PHX
Posts: 1,753
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
arggh...i am having the same exact problem. i did all the brakes today, bled the crap out of them. there is no air and the pedal still feels like ลลลล. maybe i'll try the one man bleeder thing tomorrow. if not i'll wait till work on tuesday to use our scanner and do the abs bleed if i can figure it out. oh and my brake light is on, is yours?
ignition off, press brakes more than 40 times
turn key to "on" position, listen for brake booster to turn off w/in 40 seconds
if it does not turn off w/in 40 secs re-do
Bleeding procedure
when bleeding use a clear tube to see bubbles/ no bubbles in fluid
bleed right front until no bubbles
bleed left front until no bubles
Bleed rear left and right (it didn't say which side so I did both at the same time, the left had 1.6 million tiny bubbles while the right had a few)
oh also the master cylinder has lines for each wheel so I guess that's why you can start up front.
I ran through a total of 2 gallons of fluid doing this job (total, before and after the FSM way)
I finally got it to feel like a brake pedal again, and it stops well. I went on a trip this weekend with it and it did really well. Still not as firm as my car so I might take it in when I get more $$$ to waste.
Let me know if you need more from the FSM on this matter
Oh one more thing did you let the master cylinder run out of fluid or go below the "low" level at any time?
12-31-2006, 10:55 AM
#40
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hot a$$ PHX
Posts: 1,753
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No problem. I still think I'm gonna re do mine a few times before I go to the dealer.
Another thing I found (new to me) while checking for any bulges in the brake lines, theres a rubber brake line in the rear infront of the real axle. Make sure that's good too.
Another thing I found (new to me) while checking for any bulges in the brake lines, theres a rubber brake line in the rear infront of the real axle. Make sure that's good too.
