csuviper

My friend supposedly rebuilt it. Does everything on the video seam to be operating how it should? Seems like something isn't opening when it should.

westjohns yota

just discovered this build, very nice work, where did you get your shackles if you dont mind me asking? ive been looking for lift shackles

csuviper

The shackles were on it when i purchased the truck. The lift is supposedly from skyjacker. Not sure if the shackles were included with that.

csuviper

We shall see about this plastiderp stuff. :spy:








lol test triangles

csuviper

Plastidip sucks. Not good for a trail rig. Easy to scratch and you have to peal it all off if it gets messed up. Touch-ups are not possible if you want them to look good.
Not a fan.

csuviper

I think I've figured out this whole power loss debacle.

I opened up the valve cover to make sure the timing chain was installed correctly and ensure that the crank and cam were synced correctly. The timing looked good. At TDC (top dead center) in compression (set the crank pulley at 0) the cam timing chain sprocket was 1/2 chain link to the left of TDC. Heard that either side of TDC is ok, can't achieve exactly TDC. This brought me back to the thinking it has to be the carb, vacuum or ignition system or worst cast the piston rings.

First is troubleshooting the ignition system. The MSD ignition coil primary and secondary resistance checked out (PR: .08ohms and SR: 3.08ohms) so I have deemed the coil to still be good. I am currently trying to trace all the wiring of the MSD system to make sure it's hooked up correctly with no shorts. I am very concerned with the wiring job so I will eventually rewire it all. I want to troubleshoot before I clean up the electrical however. The MSD control module looks ok but not sure if it is functioning properly. Need to read up on how to test to see that it's keeping up and functioning properly.

The next thought was spark plugs. Pulled them and found them black. Definitely a problem. That makes me take a step back. I replaced the distributor, rotor, cap and wires a week back. When I did that I was actually able to get the engine ‘in time’ with the timing gun and fine tuning of distributor placement. The truck would idle great. I checked out the old distributor and noticed that it was dirty inside and the advance was not functioning. This would explain loss of power last summer because the distributor wasn't adjusting to the speed causing no spark. This along with the recent testing caused the plugs to get all gummed up. I also know that I had the fuel mixture set way wrong. I was flooding the engine. The screw was nearly turned all the way out.

I haven't checked compression so I plan to do that as soon as I can. I will either rent or purchase a tester. I am really really hoping that it checks out. I don't want to have to replace rings.
I traced and retraced the vacuum lines last spring/summer so this shouldn't be the problem. The diagram was unclear in some areas so I could have a couple lines mixed up. I am not ruling this out as of yet but putting it back on the priority list.

The carb was rebuilt by a friend that has rebuilt his old 81 crawler carb several times. I trust that he did a good job. What I don't trust is the carb itself considering the condition of the rest of the truck. I will make sure the ignition and compression are good before troubleshooting more here. I will however turn the fuel mixture back to stock configuration. I read that is 4 1/2 turns out from closed position. I will probably start around 3 to burn off the excess and make sure I don't run rich again. If the other items are in check and the carb is next on the list, I might just replace it with a rebuilt or aftermarket carb. Again hoping that the problem is fixed within the ignition section or vacuum, the cost of a cab is outrageous.


If you like to scroll to the end without reading, you are in luck. The skinny is that I believe the distributor is the main cause of the problem that trickled down causing more problems. Still need to continue troubleshooting to see if the problem is fixed after new plugs and turning the fuel mixture down.

... or I could be totally wrong and its back to the drawing board.

csuviper

Here is a pic of the cam sprocket with the valve cover off. The dimple is slightly to the left (1/2 link from TDC).



Here are some pics of the old distributor. You can see the wear.



Pic of the new distributor


Pic of the diry plugs

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey bud.... I answered you on my thread... Should have done it here. lol.... BRB, I'ma copy and paste my response on your thread.......

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey man! Great admirer of your work/mods/fabbing/rigs! lol...

YES, the dimple is to be at 11:59/Sprocket Notch at 12.

ALSO;

When you go to get the sprocket on over the CAM, it helps to give a micro turn on the crank/while having someone push in/provide full slack on the chain tensioner--- Then slide the CAM sprocket over the CAM and while the slack is still provided, move the crank back to 6'oclock on the dot/THEN release the tensioner.(It looks as though you've already got it on there. Just make sure it's at 6 on the crank and you appear 'GOOD 2 GO', period!)

THE ONLY thing I don't like in what I'm looking at in the picture?>>>> The Shiny Link is NOT over the sprocket dimple... Rather, you appear to have an inset link over it..... It's pretty much impossible(while the oil pump is on) to see that the Crank mark is over the other bright link AND at 6'oclock on the dot.... So you just make sure it's on 6'oclock on the crank-timing gear sprocket/link and '0' on the Timing Mark Key on the Oil pump.... Then you can 'provide slack in chain before attaching CAM gear w/chain over the cam....then back off to '0'....

Does that make sense???^^^

HOWEVER; IFFFFFFFFFFF that is a pic of the Timing Kit AFTER it's been ran since rebuild/re-assembly, ....then the bright link isn't always going to be right on point over the Gear dimple. If that's the case, ....IF it's been run since you got home(which it looks like it has), then you appear to be good to go

This is why I'm a fan of installing the timing kit myself.... Then the timing cover, etc. I had a bad experience(as you might know) with my first machinist.... He used WAY too much FIPG on the timing cover to block surface... Then he over torqued a timing cover bolt and cracked my block face... PLUS TONS MORE! lol. So, I felt much more comfy seeing the Crank Timing gear at 6 over the bottom shiny link and top one at 11:59 over the dimple on the cam-timing gear......

PSS> I'm sure you know the dimple on the dizzy goes in at 12 and falls back/counterclockwise to RIGHT BEFORE the CAM's-dizzy drive gear...

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

PSSS> Don't forget a dab of FIPG on the corners of the Half Moons and underneath them as well.

csuviper

Thanks for your response Chef. I had it all together and if you read my post #66 and #67 you will see what my investigation has found. Took off the cover to check out the timing and wanted to make sure it was really on the spot.

I don't remember how I put it all back together. Think the head went on then I installed the cam sprocket before chain and crank sprocket. The cam sprocket went on in the only location it could go, turned it to roughly tdc. Had the cylinder set visually at TDC (which was verified correct when the pulley mark lined up). Put the chain on and obviously didn't line it up with the shinny links. Don't think that matters as long as TDC for the cylinder is correctly lined up with the cam. That's what i am trying to verify.

You said make sure its at 6 on the crank. What are you referring to? The crank pulley mark is at 0. Oh you said 6'o clock for the dimple then. Not sure because the timing chain cover is still on. Was hoping to not have to remove it. What are you thoughts?

It has been run since installing so i guess im good on the shinny link . I had problems so im in the investigation stage.

As far as the dizzy goes, didn't actually notice a dimple, oops. I just took the cap off and lined it up with one and put it in. Yea it rotates a little counterclockwise as it goes in.

Heck I had the truck timed with the timing gun and idling great. If the crank and cam were off I don't think that I would be able to idle that well and and get the correct reading. Just trying to cover all the possibilities in my investigation of power loss at higher rpm and with load.

Let me know what you think about my possible fix from post # 66 and 67. Thanks again Chef.

csuviper

I was just going to put some high heat RTV silicon on there.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Wow, that's a lot going on(I can relate! lol)...

Far as the link 'stuff's' ....... Hard to really comment as I'm not watching you do it 'first time'... HOWEVER: If you were installing a new chain(or existing one) back in after a rebuild or whatever caused that cover to be off in the pic...... Then the shiny links 'lining up' is VERY important on the 'FIRST INSTALL' after installing head, etc.(which means you had the CAM out, etc.).... The reason it's important is because it determines EXACTLY the right amount of links are in-between each side of the dimples. And yet, ... you said it was running really smooth... So in short; I would DEFINITELY 'tend to' agree with you on the theory that it's something else causing you sudden issues.

On the "6'oclock", ... yes, I'm referring to the Crank Timing Gear Dimple being at 6'oClock while the CAM timing dimple is at 11:59 and simultaneously verifying that the 'bright links' are over each dimple(ONLY IF THE CHAIN HAS COME OFF... which I'm thinking it didn't and you never removed the t-cover... that's what you said, right?)>>> if you ONLY pulled the head but left the chain on the cam timing gear as it was when you removed it... then no, the shiny links lining up as I mentioned is not important.

Now, personally, since you weren't CERTAIN on the Dizzy.... while it's a PITA, it's a mild one to remove the v-cover and start over. I would get it to TDC-compression, then look down under the dizzy gear guide where the gears meet.... If the dimple on TOP of the dizzy gear isn't RIGHT before the first gear(counterclockwise), then it's NOT in correctly. That being off even one tooth CAN allow it to run ok but never 'how it's supposed to', ya know? I mean, how can it.... when if that's the case, the dizzy is hitting the contacts before/after the 'timing' they're supposed to be making contact in relation to the COMPRESSION/TIMING/FIRE. Make sense? (I ask cuz I'm already kinda lost, lol)....

Those 2 center plugs are a bit oily, man.... have you done a compression check/leak down? I would, simply because you can waste tons of time on things that are darn well important... but that might have to be all undone just to re-ring it, ya know? Rule that out, Viper, IMHO.

Again, I can't be ABSOLUTELY sure on a couple things... So could you do a quick favor?>>>>

Do a quick list, 1., 2., 3., relaying EXACTLY what you did, in what order, in regards to the 'assembly' or 're-inspection' after rebuild' or whatever it was, k? "Guessing", when it comes to Crank Gear/Timing Gear/Bright Link/Dizzy Gear relationships can only lead to endless tail chasing... And yet, I'm not sure ANY 'guessing' occurred, ya know? So just clear up for me what happened in what order with a reallyyyyyyyy brief summary(nothing elaborate... just)>.......

1. Did a HG and timing kit install...
2. Noticed issues with missing/timing/whatever
3. Pulled V-cover and inspected
4. Pulled Dizzy while at TDC-Compression and verified proper alignment(or guessed) whatever
5. Etc., Ya know?

At this point, I'm assuming that it wasn't rebuilt, and you did some top end refreshing/etc., right?

Let's start over, ok? hahahaha.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

This is Roger's tech write up on the chain install... Which I'm now thinking, after re-reading your posts that you didn't do......

But just for the heck of it and for info as to why/what is so important, etc..... lol...

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...ingChain.shtml

csuviper

In the end I think the timing is right but not positive its right. Pretty sure but have doubt. You know what I mean. With it in its current state after rebuild last year I was able to get the correct timing reading from the timing gun and I was able to pass emissions with it before the problems that it faced when reaching ~50 mph or additional load from a hill.

Here is the list:
1) Bought the truck, noticed leaks, decided to replace head gasket, all other gaskets to get there and other important components like oil pump, water pump, crank and cam sprockets, chain guides/tensioners, etc.
2) Dissasembly (last year), put it at TDC before disasembly
3) Reassembly of timing chain started with finding the TDC of the crank with head removed. Watched the piston peak before dropping. (That lined up with the pulley mark at 0 on the oil pump timing mark).
4) Installed new timing chain guides and new tensioners.
5) Installed new crank sprocket (contrary to the order that I mentioned before)
6) Installed head.
7) Installed new cam sprocket to find TDC.
8) Rotated cam to 12 o-clock. I remember putting it on with wrong placement first because the valve contacted the cylinder. (don’t worry it only hit as I was slowly rotating the cam by hand to get to 12o-clock.)
9) Removed cam sprocket and reinstalled with the timing chain onto the cam shaft, possibly not lining up the shiny chain links, don’t remember.
10) Installed the timing chain cover.
11) Installed new oil pump
12) Installed new water pump
13) Installed the oil pan.
14) Installed everything else….

Here is a pic just after the timing chain cover was installed.


After the semi rebuild from last year I experienced the following problems
1) Could not quite get the correct timing reading. The closest I could get was 4 before TDC. Truck idled fine and could be driven at slower speeds and even crawl without problems.
2) At ~50mph or hitting the accelerator on a hill the truck would lose all power or jerk violently. Once I lost power I could not regain anything until slowing down to about 25mph. If it jerked violently I could push the clutch in wait a sec and then accelerate again. Sometimes it would be ok after that sometimes it would lose power or jerk violently again.
3) After replacing the distributor the truck the truck idled great and I was able to achieve a good range in the timing. Seemed run smoothest around 5-8 before TDC. When accelerating the truck would lose all power and cut out. Stationary pulling the throttle cable the carb sounded like I was starving for air like the butterfly’s were almost close and it was sucking for air. The truck would choke out and die. If you quickly hit the accelerator it would choke out a little but scream once the lower butterfly opened up.
Because of the problems experienced above I am troubleshooting all possibilities so that I can actually drive on the highway to get to the trails. Last year when heading up I had to pull over every 100’ on the highway to let the truck settle after the power loss and get going again. Most of the drive was on the shoulder letting people pass. I am not doing that again this year. Need to figure out the problem.

My next step is checking compression. Already on the to do list. Didn't change rings when i did the semi rebuild so i am a little worried.

csuviper

Any thoughts about the above Chef? ^^^

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Sorry Bud, ...

I'm really 'in it' right now, if you KWIMean? On top of LOTS of crises(mainly my stepfather's ailing health), I'm planning/prepping for and getting ready for a BIG Baby shower, for my oldest Daughter, on the 14th. I do everything myself, to avoid ANY overhead, lol.... So it's my own fault, in part, that I'm 'even more overwhelmed' at the moment.

Reading through, I notice that you aren't sure on the 'shiny links' portion... And, well, while it's REALLY important.... While it can cause many issues..... it doesn't seem like it was as much of a problem as your Distributor and other Ignition Components. I'm also very suspecting of the Carb, considering your explanation and symptoms. The filthy plugs, however, are also making me curious........

If the plugs are/were dry-black, that's carbon and usually a sign of timing issues/Fuel-Air mixture is off and / or multiple start/stops of the engine(more than normal), and I'd lean toward the Carb or, ....hmmm, again, 'timing?' .

If the plugs are oily.... could be multiple things, but usually means, well, oil is leaking into the combustion chamber, ya know? At that point, you'd wanna 'find' where the oil is coming from. Maybe do a leak down, on top of a compression test, Viper.... Mainly because you can't be sure whether or not you're leaking oil down past the guides or past the rings(due to timing chain being off or obviously otherwise, on the 'rings' end). They LOOKED really oily to me, ... but I can't be sure w/out having seen them or held them in hand, right? But then, it could be both, 'carbon from bad fuel/air mixture and/or timing' AND 'oil leakage into holes'....???

I'd personally verify timing on the Dizzy while at TDC-Compression(dimple in right spot) and also verify the Carb is functioning properly. Meantime, I'd ALSO do a leak down test and compression(can't hurt and the leak down is VERYYYYYYYYY telling, especially in relation to 'valve timing/seating' and 'ring compromise', ya feel me?).... Not forgetting to mention; The leak down will PINPOINT, much more thoroughly, WHERE, EXACTLY you're having issues. Ie; Leaking #2 intake valve or "#3 Ring is not holding air as much as it should.

I don't want to be negative ahead of time... no purpose in that... But only hypothetically, I know that it's possible to have the chain off a tooth or more and to end up slowly causing bending of valves/etc..... And, well, looking at that picture you posted.... After assembling the timing kit with new guides, etc., ... I can clearly see that the shiny link is not in place in that photo(and in fact, it's opposite, where there is not a solid link over the dimple in the cam sprocket). I'm assuming that is, as you said, 'right after assembly and before turning it over at all, ........right? lol. That could be ''unimportant'', unless you took the chain off on the old sprockets and placed it onto the new ones exactly where it was.... But if you likely didn't, lol.. then it has me concerned right off the bat. There's NO real way to be 'SURE' it's the exact right amount of links and balance, etc., without installing it the way they set it up, ya know?

^^^^ Just hypothetical... BUT, if you verify your timing components/carb/vacuum advance, etc., is all operating as it's supposed to.... just refusing to get into time?>>> Well, I'd have to say, at that point, "You might have to investigate and dig back in there". I only say that to be realistic, Viper, ya know? I TOTALLY hope otherwise... But, hey, if you think of all the possibilities, you wont get tunnel vision like I did a few times, .....and you wont be overwhelmed with disappointment if it ends up being more 'mechanical timing/mechanical period', right?

csuviper

Yea I hear you on the busy part. I have a kid on the way and a baby shower to attend sometime in the next few months. Yea is a baby shower for the guys too :/

The plugs were wet. The black stuff seamed to be dried on with a little wetness over it. Didn't seam like oil when i looked at them 2 days ago. I had the fuel mixture way way to high. Too many starts and stops and playing with the carb pushing more gas in. Hoping that's what it is.

Found the dimple on the dizzy and yes it was lined up correctly. 12 o-clock then rotates counterclockwise as you put it in. That's where it was.

That pic is probably not right after assembly without turning. I know we craned it around a few times to double check some things like making sure that the crank lined up and cam was close to tdc. I could be off a link but only that at most in my opinion.

I'm going to try to turn the chain around a few time to see i can get the shiny link lined up on the dimple. Not sure if it will really matter because i cant see the lower.

I will move forward with a leak down test and a compression test. Hope to find the testers for cheap.
- If the tests check out ok then I will put it back together with new plugs and see if i can get it to run well.
- If the tests are moderate but should function then I will put it back together and see if it will run well. If it does then i will run trails until next winter and plan the tear down to replace rings or other then.
- If these tests fail then i will have to tear the engine down to replace rings, etc now. (Definitely don't want to do this now)

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

I hear ya on the plugs, shower, everything, lol.

I in no way mean to be a downer, lol... promise!!! hahhaa.

Just trying to think everything out from miles away, ya know? lol.

Hmmmm, yeah, it's not easy to verify both links without pulling at least the oil pump.... But if it's off, TRUST ME, it's worth it if it's possible. Anyway, trying to get them to line up again can take MANYYYYYYY turns, lol. it's only there for initial install so that exactly the right amount of links on each side/balance is there, ya know? After that, it's not often that they line up exactly orig. Takes a few turns, needless to say, lol.

Best wishes on the hunt... Not sure on the leak down.... GREAT tool to have, but I know most places don't rent them anymore haha.

Harbor Freight has one for reasonable.... I know, it's HF, but I've had pretty good law of averages with 'good luck' with their stuff for the most part, ya know? Just a thought.

csuviper

Hey your not a downer at all. Your exactly what I needed. Someone to try to keep me from tunnel vision and actually do the right test for verification and help troubleshoot the possibilities. I can say I am a very big devils advocate promoter .

Yep I bought the Harbor freight leak down. Going to rent the compression tester from autozone if i cant get a hold of my friends this weekend.

I hope it all checks out. Crossing my fingers and saying prayers. I want to hit the trials