Corey

iTrader: (1)

Then people need to get more educated on this subject, or sooner than you think, all of our trails will be shut down.

It is already happening at an alarming rate.
Ignorance of Tread Lightly! here at YotaTech is no excuse.
The link stares at you from the Navbar at the top of your screen.

YotaTech is a partner with Tread Lightly, so we do take their message seriously here.

WATRD

I understand that there are those who have not yet "gotten the word". But, to be aware of the principles of responsible stewardship of the land and to ignore them or diminish the current threat to our trails is irresponsible in the worst possible way.

idayota

so a little on the side, what is the best way to inform yotatech members about treadlightly? what can be done to raise awareness in our online community besides a link on the nav bar? more awareness might make more sense and do more than censorship.

idayota

hey corey or watrd, you might know: back when i was in high school we regularly made runs up the naches for trail rebuilding efforts under the pnw4wda...a lot of our time was spent building low bridges and catwalks over mud holes and creeks...how much do those cost and how receptive is the forest service to projects like that?

i know several times we helped keep trails open that otherwise would have been closed because they had meadowland/marsh approaches. personally, i would like to see more groups adopt projects like these. maybe the more these projects are highlighted, the more people on the forum will get the hint about treading lightly and keeping access open?

again, a little off topic, but in the ballpark, right?

WATRD

It's not "censorship" if it's a violation of the published rules. Posting photos of illegal wheeling here is treated the same as any other illegal activity. That's the point of this thread. How can we tell? If you post a picture of your marijuana grow, your thread gets deleted. Post a story about illegal racing, same thing. Post up about how drunk you were when you drove home last night and see how long it (or you) last here. Illegal activity of any kind is not welcome here.

As to how to spread the word, the best thing that anyone can do is to understand the concept of tread lightly, educate other users and refuse to condone the kind of activities that run contary to those principles. To what extent is up to each individual.

There are "working" events of this kind by various clubs, all over the country, all year. All it takes is someone to decide they are done doing nothing and sticking their heads in the sand and to seek out opportunities to make a difference in their area.

WATRD

Then don't turn a serious thread into what you want it to be by rehashing old ground, making thinly veiled references and generally making it about what you want to talk about.

Thanks!

stormin94

I don't think we need to judge people's pictures to see if the wheeling in the pics are "illegal". People are responsible for their own actions, and if they do post a pic that they know has "illegal" 4X4ing on it, then thats up to them to loose sleep over, not us. I don't believe we need forums where people vote on legal/illegal wheeling clogging up Yotatech. I'd like to think that most of us on here are civlilized enough to use good judgement...

AxleIke

I think that you can't really do this.

You can delete threads that are notified as off trail, but if you cannot prove it, let it go. Guilty until proven innocent is easy, but seldom fair.

I suggest if it is questionable, you ask the member to remove the pictures on their own first, explaining that pictures of even possible trail abuse can be exceedingly damaging.

Don't get me wrong, I care about and do more about this more than the majority. Ask anyone who knows me. But this isn't really feasable. As much as it sucks, you'll have to rely on honesty and personal responsibilty.

AxleIke

no.

If it is known to be illiegal, it should be removed immediately. The grey area pics should be removed by the posting member if possible.

WATRD

Interesting points.

I guess what gets me, is the slippery slope aspect. Leaving up photos is jsut shy of condoning the behavior. Then others learn from those pics/threads and the problem gets worse. It seems like doing nothing is what the 4x4 community has been good at in the past and look at where it's gotten us. Shall we start a list of places we can't wheel anymore because of resource damage?

That's a big part of the reason I am interested in this discussion. It seems that an active approach toward those who are actually causing the problems might bear more fruit...

AxleIke

After thinking about this some more, the only way I can see this working is if we started a list of all the places that have LEGAL mudding areas, and a list of all the places that have almost none. Include in this list nearby towns and references.

Then, if a poster is from a place where it is known to be illegal to mud, the pictures can be removed, and they warned. If it is in a legal place, either the poster can be contacted, or the honor system used.

The reason this is tricky for me is that i'm a huge advocate of TL, but i'm not wild about the "Big Brother" lane this could easily head down if we are not careful.

stormin94

That's what I was thinking.....But there are many flaws with having people decide on what is Legal, and what is not. If you own a piece of property outside of a state where mudding is illegal, and you post a picture of your truck(or SUV) mudding there, who's to say that that is not legal??? Or if you visit a perfectly legal mudding park and you are from out of state(or county, depending on your local laws) and post the pics, why should that make you a terrible person. I agree with Tread Lightly, but what I do not agree with is the full regulation of all 4X4-ing. Most teens in rural areas go 4x4-ing, and that's what keeps them off drugs, and other MUCH MUCH WORSE things than mudding. I agree with you about not tearing it up, but if you have a designated area to do it, and you post the pics, WHY, oh why should other people judge your pictures to see if they can spot illegal wheeling??? The day that people start flagging pics that THEY DEEM illegal(reguardless of the facts) is the day that I resign from Yotatech. There is a difference between rediculous, and responsible wheeling, most of the time you can tell, but there will always be the HUGE grey zone where problems will arise if we choose to go down this path.

AxleIke

Not just the FS Ric, I've sent it to the sherriff several times. Follow ups have confirmed tickets.

I'm interested in this and torn about what to do. I don't like Orwellian nightmares, but i also hate with a passion illegal wheeling. Robs point about indifference is spot on. This is a fine line to walk to be sure.

Corey

iTrader: (1)

Good points being brought up here, and last week I even planted a few "subliminal messages" to help spread the word.
You may have seen them at the very top of your browser.

I would like to add that two parties do monitor this forum and others full time.
Tread Lightly! takes a genuine interest in all of their partners, so they are reading this thread and others here.

That is good and to be expected.
There is also another party out there that monitors this and other forums full time.
They have several names, but I prefer to refer to them as Greenies.
They hate the fact that you are out with your rig on trails, even if they are legit trails.
They would love to see rigs banned from all trails.

When they see illegal pictures and text, you can be sure they are saving them to their hard drive to use out of context somewhere.
Even if it was perfectly legal where the activity was being done.

So yes, some type of monitoring needs to be done here by all of us, and as Rob stated earlier, the Report this Post feature is the best way to let a staff member know of your concern.
We prefer that over PM'ing or emailing us.

WATRD

So let's find some common ground.

What about the periodic threads we get, where someone posts up that they were off-roading on some land near home, then the cops showed up and ran them off. Can we agree that is likely illegal wheeling or do some feel there is gray area there as well?

AxleIke

There is a reason cops show up. In that case, immediate deletion is required.

I'm interested to see how other folks would handle the grey area, and puzzled that more haven't taken an interest. Be sure to keep this thread handy to link to once the bitching starts. Its like people who don't vote complaining about how the president or congress does things.

Corey

iTrader: (1)

Exactly!
Every time I hear at work or elsewhere someone complaining about the president, the mayor, ect, I ask them if they voted, and they say no.
Then I tell them to shut up and quit complaining.

Tacoclimber

As for me, I'm in total agreement with the philosophy of Tread Lightly. There are several good trails that have been thrashed out in my area by irresponsible cretins. However, I am also of the opinion that trying to legislate morality is a very sketchy thing. If a picture and account is posted that is obviously referencing some illegal off roading, then it should be deleted. As Rob pointed out, it is no different than any other illegal activity that might be posted. However, I may look at a post and determine that it was a bad idea or irresponsible, and if I was a moderator, may make a judgment call and delete it. What if I was wrong? What if it wasn't illegal, just stupid and reckless? Does it still warrant deletion? That, I think, is part of the slippery slope. If it can be proven that it was illegal, than adios. If it wasn't illegal, just stupid, then we can verbally berate the poster... (Just kidding about the last part, sort of.)

It is our responsibility as conscientious wheelers to help educate and encourage other wheelers. (But we already knew that).

I doubt that anything I've written is profound, but I wanted to let my voice be heard on the issue.

TREAD LIGHTLY AT ALL TIMES, NOT JUST WHEN IT'S EASY.

Integrity is doing what's right when no one's watching.

EDIT: By the way, I wasn't insinuating that I want to be a mod, honest!

WATRD

Ike and CJ, that's exactly why I started this thread. To remind folks that illegal activity of any kind is not allowed on this forum, including resource damage. In addition, I am hoping to better calibrate how we deal with that issue here and how we tell legal from illegal. There is a balancing act that must happen and my hope is to get feedback on how to make it work.

Somewhere between the trolls who scream "I can do anything I want!" and those who think our sport shouldn't exist at all is the line. But that's a lot of gray area. As a forum, it would be irresponsible for us to allow threads that could endanger the sport. Go to any gun forum and start a thread about how it's your gun, your right and you will wave it around in public and shoot it anywhere you want and see how they handle it. They are as sensitive to image and legality as we should be...

So, please keep the feeback coming. It's something we need to discuss. Threads showing illegal activity WILL be deleted from this forum. The question is how can we best find that line.

Tacoclimber

I see this as a personal as well as a corporate issue. The personal aspect is how I as an individual promote responsibility on the trail. The corporate issue is how we as an online community communicate the same, not only within the ranks, but also beyond. It has been brought up about those sporting YT stickers illegally wheeling, and how that reflects on YT as a whole.

I think that if threads that contain any inkling of illegality are cracked down on, then a few things will probably happen:
1) Those who post such irresponsibility will be more careful about the details of their misadventures
2) They will cease posting about said misadventures, knowing the stand that YT takes.
3) YT's reputation as a community that supports responsibility and condemns the contrary will be further promoted.

How to draw the line? I think it begins with what has already been put into action: cracking down on the obviously illegal. From there, if there is a question, perhaps ask the original poster straightforwardly about the legality of the post. Sure, they may lie, but then YT had done what it needs to do. Anything beyond that, I don't see as reasonable. We definitely don't want to launch ourselves into, as Ike put it so eloquently, an "Orwellian nightmare".