"Hydrogen Booster" Setup
07-07-2008, 09:14 PM
#41
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I showed a friend the stan myer sand rail that ran off of hydrogen from a cell on the car.
in some of the videos he claims to only run half of a amp something real low
my buddy thinks he was working with some sort of vibration in electric pluses to produce the hydrogen in larger quantity's and keep the heat down.
to make your project work the wire in a jar is not going to work you will need very thin stainless steel that can conduct quickly look at the cells in the stan myer videos.
if you really want it to work look deep into it there are many people doing this and have been for years look on youtube ignore the ones with jars and wire and the ones with 2inch pvc tubes and washers that is a waste of your time
to make one right if possible you need to spend some cash on stainless steel and I get the feeling it costs some to make a cross over inverter of sorts.
I hope what I said above makes sense I have a basic knowledge of electronics
my wording may not be right but you will need some sort of capacitor like one for a camera flash <(but larger)that can hold a good charge and pulse the charge to the coil tubes.
same concept as a stun gun takes a 9 volt battery but converts it to 10,000 volts.
hope I made sense and helped.
in some of the videos he claims to only run half of a amp something real low
my buddy thinks he was working with some sort of vibration in electric pluses to produce the hydrogen in larger quantity's and keep the heat down.
to make your project work the wire in a jar is not going to work you will need very thin stainless steel that can conduct quickly look at the cells in the stan myer videos.
if you really want it to work look deep into it there are many people doing this and have been for years look on youtube ignore the ones with jars and wire and the ones with 2inch pvc tubes and washers that is a waste of your time
to make one right if possible you need to spend some cash on stainless steel and I get the feeling it costs some to make a cross over inverter of sorts.
I hope what I said above makes sense I have a basic knowledge of electronics
my wording may not be right but you will need some sort of capacitor like one for a camera flash <(but larger)that can hold a good charge and pulse the charge to the coil tubes.
same concept as a stun gun takes a 9 volt battery but converts it to 10,000 volts.
hope I made sense and helped.
07-07-2008, 09:16 PM
#42
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On another note I don't understand why you are so opposed to the idea of HHO or brown gas. I can understand if you are skeptical as to if it will work or not but there is no need to get so confrontational on the issue. Although I can understand wanting the data of before and after in a certain way. But a dyno will not test if this works in real situations only in ideal situations.
Also, the system design should have a way to shut off/seal the hydrogen/oxygen intake when mudbogging or hard acceleration.
my buddy thinks he was working with some sort of vibration in electric pluses to produce the hydrogen in larger quantity's and keep the heat down.
to make your project work the wire in a jar is not going to work you will need very thin stainless steel that can conduct quickly look at the cells in the stan myer videos.
to make your project work the wire in a jar is not going to work you will need very thin stainless steel that can conduct quickly look at the cells in the stan myer videos.
Last edited by Wombosi; 07-07-2008 at 09:21 PM.
07-07-2008, 09:17 PM
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the third post in this thread specifically stated:
Before chemistry became a factor I stated that there is no wasted energy from an alternator other than heat from the stator and field windings, and the rectifier / regulator circuits.
To claim using 'wasted' energy from the alternator is in and of itself a false statement. Drawing any power from the alternator requires the combustion of fuel by the engine. There is no "free" energy, pertaining to money or otherwise. Increasing the output of the alternator to accomodate the generation of hydrogen requires more fuel to be consumed by the engine.
The typical engine, when running consumes less than 30 amperes from the alternator (engines run off the alternator, not the battery, by the way), so to claim to use 30 amperes for the generation of hydrogen requires at least twice as much energy output from the engine to drive the alternator than the engine would require without the production of hydrogen.
So it appears we need to find a way to increase the efficiency of generating the hydrogen- probably move it away from the engine and to a more energy neutral area.
Very good point. This project will use the wasted energy from the alternator to make hydrogen. Stock alternators on the 1994 4Runner put out 60 to 70 amps (relatively weaksauce compared to most others) but only use about 1/2 of that energy to keep the battery charged. This is, of course, unless someone is running a high-power stereo system with subwoofers. This design will use a maximum of 30A to charge the electrode in the unit.
So theoretically, we will have "free" energy (pertaining to money) to put back into the combustion process. Not a bulletproof case I'll admit, but it will definitely put the alternator to the test.
So theoretically, we will have "free" energy (pertaining to money) to put back into the combustion process. Not a bulletproof case I'll admit, but it will definitely put the alternator to the test.
To claim using 'wasted' energy from the alternator is in and of itself a false statement. Drawing any power from the alternator requires the combustion of fuel by the engine. There is no "free" energy, pertaining to money or otherwise. Increasing the output of the alternator to accomodate the generation of hydrogen requires more fuel to be consumed by the engine.
The typical engine, when running consumes less than 30 amperes from the alternator (engines run off the alternator, not the battery, by the way), so to claim to use 30 amperes for the generation of hydrogen requires at least twice as much energy output from the engine to drive the alternator than the engine would require without the production of hydrogen.
So it appears we need to find a way to increase the efficiency of generating the hydrogen- probably move it away from the engine and to a more energy neutral area.
07-07-2008, 09:42 PM
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But guess what? None of this matters. I'm not trying to defy thermodynamics as you say I am, I am simply a 4th-year Electrical Engineering student trying to have fun building a Hydrogen Cell to get better gas mileage so I can save some money getting to and from work.
Go Orediggers!
Go Orediggers!
Last edited by Wombosi; 07-07-2008 at 10:41 PM.
07-07-2008, 10:07 PM
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if you're an electrial engineering student... then you know W=VA.
So you say you cannot change an alternator's output, but you can. The alternator is a modified generator. Considering a generator uses magnets rotating within windings (or windings {armature} rotating within a magnet), an alternator builds on that and uses no magnets but rather 'stator' and 'field' windings. Either the stator or field can be stationary, but the fact remains that neither is a magnet. Typically, the stator is the current source for the charging system, analogous to the amature in a DC generator, and the field windings become the 'magnet'.
In a DC generator, the voltage increases in a linear fashion in accordance with shaft RPMs. The regulator senses the voltage output from the generator and compares it with the voltage and current required by the electrical system it is connected to, often configured as a simple resistor network and relay that connects and disconnects the generator to the electrical system as necessary in order to maintain a semi-constant voltage in the system.
With an alternator (a.k.a. AC Generator), it's a bit more complicated since there are no fixed magnets as there are with a DC generator. The field windings act as the fixed magnets and are controlled by the regulator. Most automotive alternators are of the three-phase design and require rectifying diodes to smooth and filter the AC signal to the DC voltage required by the electrical system. Depending on the actual design of the alternator, the field may be the rotating component, or the stator may be, but either way, the regulator controls the strength of the field windings and thus the strength of the magnetic field and consequently the output of the alternator. In this manner, the regulator can increase or decrease the amperage output of the alternator without changing the voltage output.
The output of the alternator is ultimately limited by the size and density (wire gauge and winding count) of the stator as well as the strength of the magnetic field (which is determined in kind by the size of the windings and current within the field windings).
An alternator tends to allow for a more 'flat' voltage with varying current whereas a DC generator tends to allow for 'flat' current with varying voltage.
So you say you cannot change an alternator's output, but you can. The alternator is a modified generator. Considering a generator uses magnets rotating within windings (or windings {armature} rotating within a magnet), an alternator builds on that and uses no magnets but rather 'stator' and 'field' windings. Either the stator or field can be stationary, but the fact remains that neither is a magnet. Typically, the stator is the current source for the charging system, analogous to the amature in a DC generator, and the field windings become the 'magnet'.
In a DC generator, the voltage increases in a linear fashion in accordance with shaft RPMs. The regulator senses the voltage output from the generator and compares it with the voltage and current required by the electrical system it is connected to, often configured as a simple resistor network and relay that connects and disconnects the generator to the electrical system as necessary in order to maintain a semi-constant voltage in the system.
With an alternator (a.k.a. AC Generator), it's a bit more complicated since there are no fixed magnets as there are with a DC generator. The field windings act as the fixed magnets and are controlled by the regulator. Most automotive alternators are of the three-phase design and require rectifying diodes to smooth and filter the AC signal to the DC voltage required by the electrical system. Depending on the actual design of the alternator, the field may be the rotating component, or the stator may be, but either way, the regulator controls the strength of the field windings and thus the strength of the magnetic field and consequently the output of the alternator. In this manner, the regulator can increase or decrease the amperage output of the alternator without changing the voltage output.
The output of the alternator is ultimately limited by the size and density (wire gauge and winding count) of the stator as well as the strength of the magnetic field (which is determined in kind by the size of the windings and current within the field windings).
An alternator tends to allow for a more 'flat' voltage with varying current whereas a DC generator tends to allow for 'flat' current with varying voltage.
07-08-2008, 05:19 AM
#48
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abecedarian - the point here is that we've already discussed the technical "questionability" of this concept here:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...-setup-142590/
You are correct about how alternators work and that there is no "extra" current that "you're making anyways, so why not use it". But that's not the point here - it's about FINALLY getting some data and proving whether this works on not ...
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...-setup-142590/
You are correct about how alternators work and that there is no "extra" current that "you're making anyways, so why not use it". But that's not the point here - it's about FINALLY getting some data and proving whether this works on not ...
07-08-2008, 06:22 AM
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abecedarian,
You certainly aren't taking this sitting down are you
Why not prove the system wrong by building one? Or stay clear of threads in which you dont agree with? I was a skeptic, I now own two hydrogen setups that I built. Mileage gains are in the 20-25% range. 99% of the hydrogen setups you are finding on the net are total gimmicks. You can argue until you're blue in the face, but I think I have enough professional credentials to know if something works or not. Do a little homework on it, it may surprise you. At the very least, it will give you something to do with that $100,000 piece of paper other than hanging it on the wall.
You certainly aren't taking this sitting down are you
Why not prove the system wrong by building one? Or stay clear of threads in which you dont agree with? I was a skeptic, I now own two hydrogen setups that I built. Mileage gains are in the 20-25% range. 99% of the hydrogen setups you are finding on the net are total gimmicks. You can argue until you're blue in the face, but I think I have enough professional credentials to know if something works or not. Do a little homework on it, it may surprise you. At the very least, it will give you something to do with that $100,000 piece of paper other than hanging it on the wall.
07-08-2008, 06:51 AM
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Hey guys,
I'm relatively new to Yotatech and was wondering what method would be the best for posting pictures. Put them directly on the thread, or I could put thumbnails and link you to a Facebook album when I get each step done.
Also, I am doing this project at my own risk: if it works, great, but according to some people, there's a chance of damaging the engine.
Two ways I plan to control how much gas gets into the engine are:
1. Put a manual valve directly on the input hose to regulate flow
2. Slow down the reaction in the unit by using 'neutral' plates in the stainless steel element. The distance between the positive and negative elements and the neutral plates in between also determines how much current it will draw. I'm aiming for 2-3 amps, but I am putting a 30A fuse in the circuit just to be sure my battery doesn't fry.
I'm relatively new to Yotatech and was wondering what method would be the best for posting pictures. Put them directly on the thread, or I could put thumbnails and link you to a Facebook album when I get each step done.
Also, I am doing this project at my own risk: if it works, great, but according to some people, there's a chance of damaging the engine.
Two ways I plan to control how much gas gets into the engine are:
1. Put a manual valve directly on the input hose to regulate flow
2. Slow down the reaction in the unit by using 'neutral' plates in the stainless steel element. The distance between the positive and negative elements and the neutral plates in between also determines how much current it will draw. I'm aiming for 2-3 amps, but I am putting a 30A fuse in the circuit just to be sure my battery doesn't fry.
Last edited by Wombosi; 07-08-2008 at 06:52 AM.
07-08-2008, 10:19 AM
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abecedarian - the point here is that we've already discussed the technical "questionability" of this concept here:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...-setup-142590/
You are correct about how alternators work and that there is no "extra" current that "you're making anyways, so why not use it". But that's not the point here - it's about FINALLY getting some data and proving whether this works on not ...
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...-setup-142590/
You are correct about how alternators work and that there is no "extra" current that "you're making anyways, so why not use it". But that's not the point here - it's about FINALLY getting some data and proving whether this works on not ...
This water4gas/Brown's gas/whatever idea has been around for a loooong time. I think it's curious that no one has said "Hey, I tried this, this is the method I used, here are the numbers I got, and here's the conclusion I came to".
07-08-2008, 12:56 PM
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Fink
Last edited by Fink; 07-08-2008 at 03:17 PM.
07-08-2008, 02:11 PM
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I've been doing lots of reading on this subject(about 2 months worth) and thought I'd look on old yotatech. What makes Stan Meyers set up appealing is the low amp load to perform the electrolysis and get lots of HHO. I, like the thread maker wish to augment my mileage with the least amp load They sell various set ups on ebay with claims. 30 amps constant draw is just is going to shorten the life of the alt. Lots are garage home brew systems from a trip to Lowe's or the local hardware store. on ebay also. I'm not saying that is bad at all but usually is overpriced. Youtube/Metacafe videos are also informative under hydrogen generation. There are a few circuts out there that either copy or modify Stan Meyers. Here is one link. http://www.pwmpower.com/davelawtonpwm.html, ebay also sells a few of these by different makers. Also so the O2 sensor extenders/ MAF gizmos that richen or lean out the mixture via altering the signal to the computer. So I too am interested in this thread and the products purchased
07-08-2008, 03:30 PM
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Well, ignored or not by the OP, I have voiced my opinion, not "cut and paste" it as has been implied. Maybe I've done so with a bit too much enthusiasm for which I apologize. I see no harm in being a vociferous skeptic nor antagonist though. And by the way, sometimes I like to argue for the sake of the argument.
@Wombosi, I do sincerely apologize for coming across so adamant and confrontational. It was something I had to get out of my system and am now over it... considering it's all recorded in the thread history I have no further reason to re-hash any of it.
In the mean time, can we see pics or line drawings of the system as installed? I'd appreciate knowing what I'm being accused of trying to stymie. You never know though... I might have a suggestion or two about the efficiency... which is what you were requesting, no? If you need help posting images, I'm offering my server to host the images and / or documents for you at no charge and with no bandwidth limitations. Just my olive branch.
@Wombosi, I do sincerely apologize for coming across so adamant and confrontational. It was something I had to get out of my system and am now over it... considering it's all recorded in the thread history I have no further reason to re-hash any of it.
In the mean time, can we see pics or line drawings of the system as installed? I'd appreciate knowing what I'm being accused of trying to stymie. You never know though... I might have a suggestion or two about the efficiency... which is what you were requesting, no? If you need help posting images, I'm offering my server to host the images and / or documents for you at no charge and with no bandwidth limitations. Just my olive branch.
07-08-2008, 04:23 PM
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The previous two posts were completely irrelevant - thus I removed them from the thread.
Everybody is happy and it seems as though everybody is ready to get down to business - I'm excited to see the data everybody is able to produce.
Fink
Everybody is happy and it seems as though everybody is ready to get down to business - I'm excited to see the data everybody is able to produce.
Fink
07-08-2008, 04:25 PM
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Well, ignored or not by the OP, I have voiced my opinion, not "cut and paste" it as has been implied. Maybe I've done so with a bit too much enthusiasm for which I apologize. I see no harm in being a vociferous skeptic nor antagonist though. And by the way, sometimes I like to argue for the sake of the argument.
@Wombosi, I do sincerely apologize for coming across so adamant and confrontational. It was something I had to get out of my system and am now over it... considering it's all recorded in the thread history I have no further reason to re-hash any of it.
In the mean time, can we see pics or line drawings of the system as installed? I'd appreciate knowing what I'm being accused of trying to stymie. You never know though... I might have a suggestion or two about the efficiency... which is what you were requesting, no? If you need help posting images, I'm offering my server to host the images and / or documents for you at no charge and with no bandwidth limitations. Just my olive branch.
@Wombosi, I do sincerely apologize for coming across so adamant and confrontational. It was something I had to get out of my system and am now over it... considering it's all recorded in the thread history I have no further reason to re-hash any of it.
In the mean time, can we see pics or line drawings of the system as installed? I'd appreciate knowing what I'm being accused of trying to stymie. You never know though... I might have a suggestion or two about the efficiency... which is what you were requesting, no? If you need help posting images, I'm offering my server to host the images and / or documents for you at no charge and with no bandwidth limitations. Just my olive branch.
Fink
07-08-2008, 05:13 PM
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Thanks! I think I will take you up on that offer abecedarian. Here's my parts, or at least most of them. I always buy too much stuff, but it ends up all being used anyway because I trade stuff with my roommates.
For now, here is a facebook link to my parts.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...b&id=724200133
On the left is electrical stuff, switch, relay, wire, and the anode/cathode bolts and wingnuts with their rubber grommets. I don't know why, but I chose to stick with metric. Now, the most expensive part of the whole thing was the stupid pvc stuff. I chose this design because of the limited spacing in my engine compartment, even though I've temporarily removed the silencer boxes. The top-right is a 10-dollar filter from Lowe's of the same type I used in a catch-can mod. It looks quite restrictive and I may not use it. The hose is 16mm with ends in the middle. The clear hose will be used for separating the three element parts, the positive, negative, and neutral core. The mesh is not stainless steel as I would have liked it to be, but there's simply no place to buy it here in Butte.
I wasn't able to work on it much today as I promised the bro that I'd help him with weatherstripping on the camaro. BTW, here is my ride that will be receiving the experimental/detrimental hydrogen mod:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...d&id=724200133
Overall, I spent about 60-70 dollars. I will provide a detailed list later when I get it done. One of the least-expensive science projects I've done...
For now, here is a facebook link to my parts.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...b&id=724200133
On the left is electrical stuff, switch, relay, wire, and the anode/cathode bolts and wingnuts with their rubber grommets. I don't know why, but I chose to stick with metric. Now, the most expensive part of the whole thing was the stupid pvc stuff. I chose this design because of the limited spacing in my engine compartment, even though I've temporarily removed the silencer boxes. The top-right is a 10-dollar filter from Lowe's of the same type I used in a catch-can mod. It looks quite restrictive and I may not use it. The hose is 16mm with ends in the middle. The clear hose will be used for separating the three element parts, the positive, negative, and neutral core. The mesh is not stainless steel as I would have liked it to be, but there's simply no place to buy it here in Butte.
I wasn't able to work on it much today as I promised the bro that I'd help him with weatherstripping on the camaro. BTW, here is my ride that will be receiving the experimental/detrimental hydrogen mod:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...d&id=724200133
Overall, I spent about 60-70 dollars. I will provide a detailed list later when I get it done. One of the least-expensive science projects I've done...
07-08-2008, 05:22 PM
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On the left is electrical stuff, switch, relay, wire, and the anode/cathode bolts and wingnuts with their rubber grommets. I don't know why, but I chose to stick with metric. Now, the most expensive part of the whole thing was the stupid pvc stuff. I chose this design because of the limited spacing in my engine compartment, even though I've temporarily removed the silencer boxes. The top-right is a 10-dollar filter from Lowe's of the same type I used in a catch-can mod. It looks quite restrictive and I may not use it. The hose is 16mm with ends in the middle. The clear hose will be used for separating the three element parts, the positive, negative, and neutral core. The mesh is not stainless steel as I would have liked it to be, but there's simply no place to buy it here in Butte.
I wasn't able to work on it much today as I promised the bro that I'd help him with weatherstripping on the camaro. BTW, here is my ride that will be receiving the experimental/detrimental hydrogen mod:
I wasn't able to work on it much today as I promised the bro that I'd help him with weatherstripping on the camaro. BTW, here is my ride that will be receiving the experimental/detrimental hydrogen mod:
Overall, I spent about 60-70 dollars. I will provide a detailed list later when I get it done. One of the least-expensive science projects I've done...
Last edited by abecedarian; 07-08-2008 at 05:25 PM.
07-08-2008, 05:42 PM
#59
i know for a fact that this will work but it is very difficult to produce enough hydrogen to beable to run on it or make a difference with gas mileage. all it is is positively and negatively charged poles that are rediculously close together without actualy touching. you then add a mixture of water and vinegar and it will produce hydrogen. the amount of hydrogen produced all depends on the amount of surface area that you have positively and negatively charged. you can also use a little pump that circulates the water and vinegar mixture that will allow you to use all of the hydrogen created because it cleans the bubbles of hydrogen off of the stainless rods.
07-08-2008, 05:54 PM
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so now we have something to help with efficiency- a pump to circulate the liquid. Well at rest the pump would require power to operate which is something we are trying to help generate- not consume... but a vehicle moving at speed may agitate the fluid as well as, if not better than, the pump.
that leads me to postulate, would it not be possible to use the exhaust to agitate the liquid... perhaps a stop on the way from the manifold to the EGR valve?
If it seems I know nothing about what I'm talking about, I haven't yet seen how the system is installed.
that leads me to postulate, would it not be possible to use the exhaust to agitate the liquid... perhaps a stop on the way from the manifold to the EGR valve?
If it seems I know nothing about what I'm talking about, I haven't yet seen how the system is installed.
Last edited by abecedarian; 07-08-2008 at 05:57 PM.
