OILS, 10W40 or 10W30?
11-21-2008, 08:39 AM
#41
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Mobil 1 seems to indicate their 0W-30 is a suitable replacement for 5W-30 and improves gas mileage.
I agree with the guy who mentioned start-up, that is the time that the most damage is done.
I agree with the guy who mentioned start-up, that is the time that the most damage is done.
11-21-2008, 05:29 PM
#42
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Glad to see somone actually understands. I actually read it and printed it and it is a bunch of pages. As much as everybody claims to love their vehicles i just dont understand why they are so hardheaded about new oil technologies, and that they dont know what their trucks like. It doesnt have a brain. A UOA is the only way to know what your truck likes, you may think you know what it likes. This has been beat to death in everyway, That article is the best i have found out there and makes it easy to understand. Just dont understand why people stick with 40 year old ideas.
90% OF ENGINE WAER OCCUR AT STARTUP and that when these thick olils everybody like do the most damage. When it gets hot some are fine some are to still to thick. Its not hard to understand.
90% OF ENGINE WAER OCCUR AT STARTUP and that when these thick olils everybody like do the most damage. When it gets hot some are fine some are to still to thick. Its not hard to understand.
I wouldn't go so far to say I understand...
.It's a very thought provoking article. I know somethings I had to read more than once to fully understand what he was saying. But he does his best to make it easy. I also like how he provides several ways of looking at it.
On my way home last night something occured to me that I found very funny. People are always asking what the Manufactor reccomends, 20+ years ago. Oil and filters has changed so much over that time. I don't see why anyone would do something because they said to do it 20 years ago. Times have changed!
I think it's because there's so much mystery surrounding oil. It's something that a lot of people don't understand. We make educated guesses at what it all means. But even the guys that are paid to figure this stuff out aren't even entirely sure.
It doesn't help that we use the 10w30, 10w40 model. I think that just confuses people even more. It makes them think that a higher weight is going to add more protection. When in reality it's not adding anything more because 90% of the time is spent at the thinnest part of the oil's life.
If you think about it, that one article is trying to combat 80+ years of misinormation and supersition. You can't change people's minds overnight. But I think as more people begin to understand what is going on you will see a swing in the right direction.
Then we can fight over who's oil is better
.
11-21-2008, 05:40 PM
#43
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I wouldn't go so far to say I understand... .
It's a very thought provoking article. I know somethings I had to read more than once to fully understand what he was saying. But he does his best to make it easy. I also like how he provides several ways of looking at it.
On my way home last night something occured to me that I found very funny. People are always asking what the Manufactor reccomends, 20+ years ago. Oil and filters has changed so much over that time. I don't see why anyone would do something because they said to do it 20 years ago. Times have changed!
I think it's because there's so much mystery surrounding oil. It's something that a lot of people don't understand. We make educated guesses at what it all means. But even the guys that are paid to figure this stuff out aren't even entirely sure.
It doesn't help that we use the 10w30, 10w40 model. I think that just confuses people even more. It makes them think that a higher weight is going to add more protection. When in reality it's not adding anything more because 90% of the time is spent at the thinnest part of the oil's life.
If you think about it, that one article is trying to combat 80+ years of misinormation and supersition. You can't change people's minds overnight. But I think as more people begin to understand what is going on you will see a swing in the right direction.
Then we can fight over who's oil is better.
.It's a very thought provoking article. I know somethings I had to read more than once to fully understand what he was saying. But he does his best to make it easy. I also like how he provides several ways of looking at it.
On my way home last night something occured to me that I found very funny. People are always asking what the Manufactor reccomends, 20+ years ago. Oil and filters has changed so much over that time. I don't see why anyone would do something because they said to do it 20 years ago. Times have changed!
I think it's because there's so much mystery surrounding oil. It's something that a lot of people don't understand. We make educated guesses at what it all means. But even the guys that are paid to figure this stuff out aren't even entirely sure.
It doesn't help that we use the 10w30, 10w40 model. I think that just confuses people even more. It makes them think that a higher weight is going to add more protection. When in reality it's not adding anything more because 90% of the time is spent at the thinnest part of the oil's life.
If you think about it, that one article is trying to combat 80+ years of misinormation and supersition. You can't change people's minds overnight. But I think as more people begin to understand what is going on you will see a swing in the right direction.
Then we can fight over who's oil is better
.Like you said then we can fight whos the best. I know whos side im on
11-21-2008, 07:45 PM
#44
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20 years ago... any 20 weight oil was just as viscuous as any other 20 weight oil... so is 20 weight different now than it was then?
it's a measure of viscosity, and has not changed at all.
so... what is the issue then? umm... detergents... maybe?
guess I should build an engine that runs on 60 octane fuel, and then tell everyone that 60 octane is all you need because I have an engine that requires it, right?
no.
you're comparing a ferrari engine and it's oil requirements to a mass-produced engine (22r/22re/22rte/3vze/5vze/etc) ... and the ferrari has, arguably, tighter tolerances than your toyota, and you are taking the word of someone who is a 'physician/doctor' as gospel for the oil requirements of your engine?
it's a measure of viscosity, and has not changed at all.
so... what is the issue then? umm... detergents... maybe?
guess I should build an engine that runs on 60 octane fuel, and then tell everyone that 60 octane is all you need because I have an engine that requires it, right?
no.
you're comparing a ferrari engine and it's oil requirements to a mass-produced engine (22r/22re/22rte/3vze/5vze/etc) ... and the ferrari has, arguably, tighter tolerances than your toyota, and you are taking the word of someone who is a 'physician/doctor' as gospel for the oil requirements of your engine?
11-21-2008, 07:55 PM
#46
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i do have a question regarding the ferrarri engine and oil, since it was brought up. everyone knows ferarris are super cars, and you're supposed to drive em hard. a friends dad has one, and when he first got it he drove it like a grandma, (speed limits etc) and it broke down all the time. did that for maybe 3 years. then the ferrarri mechanic finally told him to drive the hell out of it. so he did. he doesnt obey the speed limits, he floors it at every stop light, etc, and it has NEVER had a problem since. since their designed to be run hard, driving them easy screws them up. does the oil have anything to do with that?
11-21-2008, 08:00 PM
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I won't argue that the guy knows Ferrari.
But by the same token people are granting him with regards to oil...
... compression ratios, fuel mixtures and timing curves should be the same too.
the guy admits that oil requirements have several determining factors and all people do is quote his 'ferrari' requirements as if they're gospel.
But by the same token people are granting him with regards to oil...
... compression ratios, fuel mixtures and timing curves should be the same too.
the guy admits that oil requirements have several determining factors and all people do is quote his 'ferrari' requirements as if they're gospel.
Last edited by abecedarian; 11-21-2008 at 08:03 PM.
11-22-2008, 02:44 AM
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So he used Ferraris. He knows them so maybe he could better explain how oil correctly acts on a car he knows. Would you want him to put out a study on oil and use a chevy z71 and tell you how oil acts. Alot of his writing was a broad as already mentioned. No its not gospel but I personally got a lot of usefull info out of it that has helped me understand oil better.Do you want me selling you oil and i talk about castrol in all my examples? I just dont understand why peolple fight learning something I just pointed it out as a useful tool others could use. This chart tells you alot and has nothing to do with a type of car, but gives you an idea how oil acts in any vehicle:
The difference is at 75 F, your startup temperature in the morning.
Oil type... Thickness at 75 F...Thickness at 212 F
Straight 30...... 250......................10
10W-30............100......................10
0W-30..............40 ......................10
Straight 10........30....................... 6
When cold 0-30 flows the best.
at temp they all flow the same ecxept str 10 which is thick at startup
So why wouldnt better oil flow when cold be better for anybody, if it is the same temp at op temp?
I thought that was very helpful.
The difference is at 75 F, your startup temperature in the morning.
Oil type... Thickness at 75 F...Thickness at 212 F
Straight 30...... 250......................10
10W-30............100......................10
0W-30..............40 ......................10
Straight 10........30....................... 6
When cold 0-30 flows the best.
at temp they all flow the same ecxept str 10 which is thick at startup
So why wouldnt better oil flow when cold be better for anybody, if it is the same temp at op temp?
I thought that was very helpful.
11-22-2008, 09:01 AM
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I'm not sure what it is about oil discussions but people seem to get hot under the collar and very defensive of their position. I've seen it on other forums too.
I also don't understand why people are stuck on the 3000 mile change. This oil change interval dates back to the 50's. Look at the advances we've made in 60 years in science and technology, and you're telling me we can't make oil last more that 3000.
Personally, I use Amsoil products. I tried the ATF on a recommendation from a friend and loved it. It is the only motor oil I have ever used that I could actually feel a difference with. Now all of the fluids in all of my vehicles is Amsoil. I extend the drain intervals too and have never had a problem. I've done oil analysis to verify it too. It blows away any castrol or similar product. I know its more expensive but worth every penny for the added protection and longer drain intervals. Obviously some people have their brand loyalties but to anyone thinking about it, I would highly recommend it, from a previous Mobil1 user.
I also don't understand why people are stuck on the 3000 mile change. This oil change interval dates back to the 50's. Look at the advances we've made in 60 years in science and technology, and you're telling me we can't make oil last more that 3000.
Personally, I use Amsoil products. I tried the ATF on a recommendation from a friend and loved it. It is the only motor oil I have ever used that I could actually feel a difference with. Now all of the fluids in all of my vehicles is Amsoil. I extend the drain intervals too and have never had a problem. I've done oil analysis to verify it too. It blows away any castrol or similar product. I know its more expensive but worth every penny for the added protection and longer drain intervals. Obviously some people have their brand loyalties but to anyone thinking about it, I would highly recommend it, from a previous Mobil1 user.
11-22-2008, 09:14 AM
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I'm not sure what it is about oil discussions but people seem to get hot under the collar and very defensive of their position. I've seen it on other forums too.
I also don't understand why people are stuck on the 3000 mile change. This oil change interval dates back to the 50's. Look at the advances we've made in 60 years in science and technology, and you're telling me we can't make oil last more that 3000.
Personally, I use Amsoil products. I tried the ATF on a recommendation from a friend and loved it. It is the only motor oil I have ever used that I could actually feel a difference with. Now all of the fluids in all of my vehicles is Amsoil. I extend the drain intervals too and have never had a problem. I've done oil analysis to verify it too. It blows away any castrol or similar product. I know its more expensive but worth every penny for the added protection and longer drain intervals. Obviously some people have their brand loyalties but to anyone thinking about it, I would highly recommend it, from a previous Mobil1 user.
I also don't understand why people are stuck on the 3000 mile change. This oil change interval dates back to the 50's. Look at the advances we've made in 60 years in science and technology, and you're telling me we can't make oil last more that 3000.
Personally, I use Amsoil products. I tried the ATF on a recommendation from a friend and loved it. It is the only motor oil I have ever used that I could actually feel a difference with. Now all of the fluids in all of my vehicles is Amsoil. I extend the drain intervals too and have never had a problem. I've done oil analysis to verify it too. It blows away any castrol or similar product. I know its more expensive but worth every penny for the added protection and longer drain intervals. Obviously some people have their brand loyalties but to anyone thinking about it, I would highly recommend it, from a previous Mobil1 user.
Yorkie PM sent
11-22-2008, 10:01 AM
#52
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IIRC he stated in writing that "it rattled like crazy on startup for xxx seconds"
Which is really good for the engine bearings and stuff.
If he wanted to do it properly, he would have simply changed the oil 2x in a row to get rid of most of the old stuff using the partial-rinse methods. Instead he put up with a 'cacophony' of engine wear due to dry start.
So, he may be partially correct, from a theoretical standpoint, but I wouldn't let him touch my car.
My 84 22R has a timing chain rattle on startup if I use 5w30. I live in Vancouver BC with somewhat mild climate (30-70F). When I run 15w40 (shell diesel) oil, the timing chain rattle on startup is not there at all.
So what oil do you think I should run on my 22R pickup?
On modern machinery you can run very thin oils and not have any issues. We run 5w30 synthetics on our 2000+ Toyotas with zero issues. I'd run thinner oils, but they cost more so I don't bother, except with the hybrid engines, which run great on 0w20 synthetics.
11-22-2008, 12:59 PM
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I won't argue that the guy knows Ferrari.
But by the same token people are granting him with regards to oil...
... compression ratios, fuel mixtures and timing curves should be the same too.
the guy admits that oil requirements have several determining factors and all people do is quote his 'ferrari' requirements as if they're gospel.
But by the same token people are granting him with regards to oil...
... compression ratios, fuel mixtures and timing curves should be the same too.
the guy admits that oil requirements have several determining factors and all people do is quote his 'ferrari' requirements as if they're gospel.
I can't help but wonder if you actually bothered to read what he said?
It's illrelavent what car he chooses to use as an example, because the basis of what he's saying applies to every car/truck.
He speaks about a lot more than what kind of Oil he puts in his Ferrari.
He actually bothers to go into what all those different weights mean, why using a 0w20 is better than running 15w50.
I think you should do yourself a favor and actually bother to read the whole thing before you try to discredit him.
11-22-2008, 01:04 PM
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Yeah, that stupid guy also drained all of the oil in his $$$$$$ car, including the oil coolers and hoses.
IIRC he stated in writing that "it rattled like crazy on startup for xxx seconds"
Which is really good for the engine bearings and stuff.
If he wanted to do it properly, he would have simply changed the oil 2x in a row to get rid of most of the old stuff using the partial-rinse methods. Instead he put up with a 'cacophony' of engine wear due to dry start.
So, he may be partially correct, from a theoretical standpoint, but I wouldn't let him touch my car.
My 84 22R has a timing chain rattle on startup if I use 5w30. I live in Vancouver BC with somewhat mild climate (30-70F). When I run 15w40 (shell diesel) oil, the timing chain rattle on startup is not there at all.
So what oil do you think I should run on my 22R pickup?
On modern machinery you can run very thin oils and not have any issues. We run 5w30 synthetics on our 2000+ Toyotas with zero issues. I'd run thinner oils, but they cost more so I don't bother, except with the hybrid engines, which run great on 0w20 synthetics.
IIRC he stated in writing that "it rattled like crazy on startup for xxx seconds"
Which is really good for the engine bearings and stuff.
If he wanted to do it properly, he would have simply changed the oil 2x in a row to get rid of most of the old stuff using the partial-rinse methods. Instead he put up with a 'cacophony' of engine wear due to dry start.
So, he may be partially correct, from a theoretical standpoint, but I wouldn't let him touch my car.
My 84 22R has a timing chain rattle on startup if I use 5w30. I live in Vancouver BC with somewhat mild climate (30-70F). When I run 15w40 (shell diesel) oil, the timing chain rattle on startup is not there at all.
So what oil do you think I should run on my 22R pickup?
On modern machinery you can run very thin oils and not have any issues. We run 5w30 synthetics on our 2000+ Toyotas with zero issues. I'd run thinner oils, but they cost more so I don't bother, except with the hybrid engines, which run great on 0w20 synthetics.
So, because your Band-Aid fix keeps the engine from making noise (in the short term) that somehow means it's better for the engine in the long term?
I don't really see any logic in that. If in trying to quiet down that rattle you cause enough engine wear in the long term to cause you to replace the engine 50,000 miles sooner then you aren't doing yourself any favors.
I had a '85 with the original 22RE I ran 5w30 in it while it had 196,xxx on the ODO. I had a '91 Accord with 230,xxx miles. Guess what I put in it? 5w30. I live in the Seattle area, so I'm dealing with the same climates as you. You can run the thinner oils in any engine. Running a thicker oil like that is akin to sweeping dirt under the rug so you don't have too look at it. Sure it works for now, but in the long term it's not going to help.
11-22-2008, 01:30 PM
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Dead on Eva, I just dont understand why everybody fights understanding what and why something is good or better for their trucks.Its like when 8traks were outed by cassette tapes nobody thought any thing could be better than an 8track. Thats what makes it so hard for me to sell the oil I sell. People that know what it is use it and swear by it people that dont swear by other brands they see on powerblock or some big money backed show or commercial and never get a UOAs done to backup their choice.Anyway im going in a direction for another post,Thanks for the help trying to make people understand they are damaging their engines with their old ways of thinking. If you ever need some oil look me up
Last edited by dbcx; 11-22-2008 at 01:31 PM.
11-22-2008, 01:39 PM
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when i lived in Pennsylvania i always used 20w-50 in the summer and 10w-30 in the winter seeing 10w-30 is a bit thinner so when cold it can get to the pistons faster and in the hot summer days the 20w-50 takes longer to break down. well that is my 2cp
11-22-2008, 01:50 PM
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http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq...=haas_articles
11-22-2008, 03:44 PM
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Dead on Eva, I just dont understand why everybody fights understanding what and why something is good or better for their trucks.Its like when 8traks were outed by cassette tapes nobody thought any thing could be better than an 8track. Thats what makes it so hard for me to sell the oil I sell. People that know what it is use it and swear by it people that dont swear by other brands they see on powerblock or some big money backed show or commercial and never get a UOAs done to backup their choice.Anyway im going in a direction for another post,Thanks for the help trying to make people understand they are damaging their engines with their old ways of thinking. If you ever need some oil look me up
I still got a few more free Oil Changes out of the Dealership for my X, but once those run out I'll be doing the upgrade.
They got enough of my money I need to get some of it back from them heh.
11-22-2008, 04:41 PM
#60
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My 84 22R has a timing chain rattle on startup if I use 5w30. I live in Vancouver BC with somewhat mild climate (30-70F). When I run 15w40 (shell diesel) oil, the timing chain rattle on startup is not there at all.
So what oil do you think I should run on my 22R pickup?
So what oil do you think I should run on my 22R pickup?
As for oils on modern machinery I do run much lower viscosity stuff all the time. Wouldn't dream of running anything thicker than 5w30 on anything made this millenium--unless there is an oil consumption issue, in which case the engine's days are numbered anyways.
All of our other cars are more modern than my old red truck and run 5w30 synthetic. The truck, as stated, is happier on 15w40.
Last edited by 86tuning; 11-22-2008 at 04:45 PM.
