Newbies first rebuild and started! NOW I NEED A LITTLE HELP!
04-11-2011, 05:59 AM
#41
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OK. Back to the vacuums.
One more thing I forgot to mention, which may be really important. Forgive my lack of motor knowledge. I upgraded the camshaft, engnbldr's 268C, which said it was a drop fit it. It definitly dropped right in, but do I need to adjust anything.
One more thing I forgot to mention, which may be really important. Forgive my lack of motor knowledge. I upgraded the camshaft, engnbldr's 268C, which said it was a drop fit it. It definitly dropped right in, but do I need to adjust anything.
04-11-2011, 06:55 PM
#42
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new rebuild, running terrible, please help
This is my first rebuild, so please excuse my lack of knowledge here.
Just rebuilt my '88 22RE. Fired right up, no leaks, but idles very poor, like it's going to stall any second. In addition the motor shakes pretty bad, which I am sure goes along with running terrible.
Timing right now is set at about 10, I've moved it around from 1-15 and no noticable differnece.
I have checked all the vacuum hoses for cracks and they appear to be fine.
I have gas.
I did upgrade the cam to a 268C from EngnBldr in my kit, but it said drop right in, maybe there was something I was supposed to adjust for that? (if this is a stupid question, once again...sorry)
ANY HELP, ADVICE, SIMILAR EXPERIANCE WOULD BE REALLY, REALLY APPRECIATED.
Just rebuilt my '88 22RE. Fired right up, no leaks, but idles very poor, like it's going to stall any second. In addition the motor shakes pretty bad, which I am sure goes along with running terrible.
Timing right now is set at about 10, I've moved it around from 1-15 and no noticable differnece.
I have checked all the vacuum hoses for cracks and they appear to be fine.
I have gas.
I did upgrade the cam to a 268C from EngnBldr in my kit, but it said drop right in, maybe there was something I was supposed to adjust for that? (if this is a stupid question, once again...sorry)
ANY HELP, ADVICE, SIMILAR EXPERIANCE WOULD BE REALLY, REALLY APPRECIATED.
04-12-2011, 06:27 AM
#44
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You can spray brake cleaner carefully around your vac lines while the engine is idling to see if that changes the idle speed. If you have a vac leak, the idle should increase when it sucks in the brake cleaner, if you have any leaks that is.
Also, the FSM procedure for installing the distributor is really easy. It sounds like you are close, but if in doubt, install it the way the FSM says.
Also, the FSM procedure for installing the distributor is really easy. It sounds like you are close, but if in doubt, install it the way the FSM says.
04-12-2011, 04:39 PM
#48
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OK. No vacuum leaks. I tried brake cleaner and a a piece of hose to my ear. Nothing.
I wanted to simulate a vacuum leak to make sure I knew what it sounded like, so I pulled this hose in the picture (with the arrow to it/circled) off and the RPM's increased and it actually sounded better.
Does that mean anything?
I wanted to simulate a vacuum leak to make sure I knew what it sounded like, so I pulled this hose in the picture (with the arrow to it/circled) off and the RPM's increased and it actually sounded better.
Does that mean anything?
04-12-2011, 04:46 PM
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Figured while I was posting pics here, I'll post an overveiw. If you see anything obviously wrong with something, I would really appreciate the help.
Think of it as a Where's Waldo for motorheads.
HELP REALLY, REALLY, APPRECIATED.
Think of it as a Where's Waldo for motorheads.
HELP REALLY, REALLY, APPRECIATED.
04-12-2011, 06:36 PM
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There is a lot more to the idle speed than just the idle adjustment screw.
Did you make any adjustments to the throttle body? The throttle plate or butterfly or whatever that is is supposed to be slightly open when the throttle is shut during idle. There is an adjustment to control the gap. Maybe there isn't enough gap now.
The Aux Air Valve is supposed to be mostly open until the engine warms up to cause a faster idle and then slightly open even after fully warmed up. I wondered if mine was faulty for a while except that was actually fine.
The throttle body is easier to check and the AAV is fairly reliable because of the bimetallic spring. Adding the vacuum leak via the A/C and PS idle-up hoses is a good quick fix and shouldn't hurt anything except you might want to add a small filter to keep dirt out of the intake.
I suspect the incorrect throttle plate gap is the culprit.
EDIT: The Haynes manual calls that the throttle stop screw located next to the throttle cable. They say that should be 1/4 turn from being fully closed if I read that correctly. The correct throttle plate angle is shown to be related to the vacuum openings in the throttle body.
Did you make any adjustments to the throttle body? The throttle plate or butterfly or whatever that is is supposed to be slightly open when the throttle is shut during idle. There is an adjustment to control the gap. Maybe there isn't enough gap now.
The Aux Air Valve is supposed to be mostly open until the engine warms up to cause a faster idle and then slightly open even after fully warmed up. I wondered if mine was faulty for a while except that was actually fine.
The throttle body is easier to check and the AAV is fairly reliable because of the bimetallic spring. Adding the vacuum leak via the A/C and PS idle-up hoses is a good quick fix and shouldn't hurt anything except you might want to add a small filter to keep dirt out of the intake.
I suspect the incorrect throttle plate gap is the culprit.
EDIT: The Haynes manual calls that the throttle stop screw located next to the throttle cable. They say that should be 1/4 turn from being fully closed if I read that correctly. The correct throttle plate angle is shown to be related to the vacuum openings in the throttle body.
Last edited by stock88pickup22re; 04-13-2011 at 09:19 AM.
04-13-2011, 10:18 AM
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I kind of blazed through the rest of the comments so far but I didn't see anyone say this. I've always been taught that the timing should be set once the truck is fully warmed up. Also, as you change timing, the idle RPM changes and visa versa. This means it will take some iterative adjusting to get both set right. Set the idle to 800 (assuming the truck is at normal operating temp), check the timing, if its off, put it at 5 degrees. Then check the idle again, set it back to 800 and then check the timing. Do this until you have your timing at 5 and your idle at 800. As a side note, I don't want to scare you, but you should have broke in your cam if it's new. A new cam needs to be ran at 1500-2000 RPMS for 20 minutes upon first start up to ensure proper oil pressure while it seats. If you haven't done that, it may be a good idea. I just did my rebuild with a new cam and I broke mine in and by that time it warmed up...set my idle and set my timing and all is good. Afterwards I had some of those AAV woes that Stock88 was talking about. If you took apart or messed with the throttle body and TPS at all, that could be a good place to check to make sure everything is normal there. I have also seen O2 sensors cause a crappy idle before but that is usually accompanied by a CEL.
04-16-2011, 11:37 AM
#54
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Ok. Latest symptom that might help. This is my first day off to work since the last post. Started it up and this:
WHEN I GIVE IT A LITTLE GAS IT MAKES A POP IN MY AIR INTAKE WHERE THE FILTER IS......ANYONE?
WHEN I GIVE IT A LITTLE GAS IT MAKES A POP IN MY AIR INTAKE WHERE THE FILTER IS......ANYONE?
04-16-2011, 12:25 PM
#55
Just curious on a couple things....
1. When you 'dropped in' the 268, .....what did you adjust the valve lash to? 7 and 9?(not likely the problem, but it can contribute to improper detonation, etc.....Really?>> just curious, lol)
2. When you put in the Distributor, did you have the rotor point at 12, then slide it in till it fell on #1 on the cap?(Beyond that, the REAL tell-tail that you're RIGHT ON, ....there's a mark on the distr. gear, more of a dimple. It's supposed to wind up JUST BEFORE the CAM-Dist. Drive gear....RIGHT before-- Counter Clockwise)
3. You're POSITIVE you had the chain in right, CAM gear Larger dowel at 12 and dimple in gear at 11:59 with bright link over it, crank gear mark at 6 with second bright link over it?
Sorry to ask these questions, I'm sure you read all the instructions correctly. Just trying to narrow it down, because when you have popping in the AFM, I'm not thinking Vacuum at all.... that is DEFINITELY a backfire, which I would GUESS is more likely Timing. A vacuum leak can definitely cause a "rumble in the jungle", but my seriously jumpy motor wound up being the mechanical timing end, namely the CAM my machinist put back in was, well, LUNCHMEAT! lol. I slapped in my brand new 261 CAM from Engnbldr, 1200mi. after the full rebuild, ..... it's MUCH better, but I STILL have a miss that is bearable, but definitely has me wondering what the heck it could be, considering I've been through everything 400 TIMES! lol... Now I'm pretty sure between Tod, Ted and Many other Machinist/guru's, ... my jumping timing mark and slight miss seems most likely to be something in My Original Rocker Assembly has too much play, etc.
The reason I mention all this, mainly, is because I CAN RELATE to these crazy symptoms. Just hang in there, there is ALWAYS a solution, ...and you'll find it through a good, detailed process of elimination. "work from the first likely cause, backward, on each component, sensor, basic elemental necessity of the motor".... Jim of Puntey's told me that, and he's right! lol. I tended to jump from one thing to the next, without any order, according to the FSM. If you read through the FSM, you'll see there are very detailed instructions for chasing down a terribly rough idle, backfires, misfires, etc.
1. When you 'dropped in' the 268, .....what did you adjust the valve lash to? 7 and 9?(not likely the problem, but it can contribute to improper detonation, etc.....Really?>> just curious, lol)
2. When you put in the Distributor, did you have the rotor point at 12, then slide it in till it fell on #1 on the cap?(Beyond that, the REAL tell-tail that you're RIGHT ON, ....there's a mark on the distr. gear, more of a dimple. It's supposed to wind up JUST BEFORE the CAM-Dist. Drive gear....RIGHT before-- Counter Clockwise)
3. You're POSITIVE you had the chain in right, CAM gear Larger dowel at 12 and dimple in gear at 11:59 with bright link over it, crank gear mark at 6 with second bright link over it?
Sorry to ask these questions, I'm sure you read all the instructions correctly. Just trying to narrow it down, because when you have popping in the AFM, I'm not thinking Vacuum at all.... that is DEFINITELY a backfire, which I would GUESS is more likely Timing. A vacuum leak can definitely cause a "rumble in the jungle", but my seriously jumpy motor wound up being the mechanical timing end, namely the CAM my machinist put back in was, well, LUNCHMEAT! lol. I slapped in my brand new 261 CAM from Engnbldr, 1200mi. after the full rebuild, ..... it's MUCH better, but I STILL have a miss that is bearable, but definitely has me wondering what the heck it could be, considering I've been through everything 400 TIMES! lol... Now I'm pretty sure between Tod, Ted and Many other Machinist/guru's, ... my jumping timing mark and slight miss seems most likely to be something in My Original Rocker Assembly has too much play, etc.
The reason I mention all this, mainly, is because I CAN RELATE to these crazy symptoms. Just hang in there, there is ALWAYS a solution, ...and you'll find it through a good, detailed process of elimination. "work from the first likely cause, backward, on each component, sensor, basic elemental necessity of the motor".... Jim of Puntey's told me that, and he's right! lol. I tended to jump from one thing to the next, without any order, according to the FSM. If you read through the FSM, you'll see there are very detailed instructions for chasing down a terribly rough idle, backfires, misfires, etc.
04-16-2011, 07:05 PM
#56
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My valve lash/complete valve job was done by the guy that machined my block, he cam highly reccomended so I didn't check, maybe I should look....?
I put in the dist. at 12 and it rotated to 9:00/#1 or so as I inserted it, in addition I have probably made it through every tooth at this point just to double check.
I lined the crank gear on the mark like the book said but I also line the cam gear at the dimple with the other bright link. Is this my problem, the dimple is supposed to be behind the other bright link at 11:59.
I put in the dist. at 12 and it rotated to 9:00/#1 or so as I inserted it, in addition I have probably made it through every tooth at this point just to double check.
I lined the crank gear on the mark like the book said but I also line the cam gear at the dimple with the other bright link. Is this my problem, the dimple is supposed to be behind the other bright link at 11:59.
Last edited by summit4runner; 04-16-2011 at 07:06 PM.
04-16-2011, 07:11 PM
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Just to make sure what I'm assuming here.
The cam gear is supposed to be aligned 1 tooth behind the dimple, relative to the opposite bright link that is lined directly over the dimple on the crankshaft gear?
I know 100% the bright links are over the dimples.
The cam gear is supposed to be aligned 1 tooth behind the dimple, relative to the opposite bright link that is lined directly over the dimple on the crankshaft gear?
I know 100% the bright links are over the dimples.
Last edited by summit4runner; 04-16-2011 at 07:31 PM.
04-17-2011, 10:51 AM
#58
NO~~~!!!! lol.... Don't wantcha misunderstanding me, lol....
Ok, the point is this, really.... When you look straight ahead from the grill toward your CAM gear face.... The DIMPLE should be at 11:59 with the shiny link RIGHT ON TOP of it. You're right if that's what you have. The other thing to look for, Summit, is that the main notch in the CAM End(it's a pin on the end of the CAM that the CAM GEAR gets mounted onto..... And holds on the CAM Gear itself.) THAT should be at 12 on the dot. There's a mark on the rocker tower behind the CAM gear, ...first rocker tower. You can make sure it's lined up with that one. Sounds like you're ok, Summit, regarding your chain location/alignment, ...don't worry. Was just making sure that the bright link was over the lil dimple(you should have to pull up the chain a lil to see it, right?). The dowel pin-- on the front end of the the CAM -- should be clear as day, right at 12oclock, coming flush but THROUGH the CAM gear, not hidden by any links at all.. make sense?
Ok, the point is this, really.... When you look straight ahead from the grill toward your CAM gear face.... The DIMPLE should be at 11:59 with the shiny link RIGHT ON TOP of it. You're right if that's what you have. The other thing to look for, Summit, is that the main notch in the CAM End(it's a pin on the end of the CAM that the CAM GEAR gets mounted onto..... And holds on the CAM Gear itself.) THAT should be at 12 on the dot. There's a mark on the rocker tower behind the CAM gear, ...first rocker tower. You can make sure it's lined up with that one. Sounds like you're ok, Summit, regarding your chain location/alignment, ...don't worry. Was just making sure that the bright link was over the lil dimple(you should have to pull up the chain a lil to see it, right?). The dowel pin-- on the front end of the the CAM -- should be clear as day, right at 12oclock, coming flush but THROUGH the CAM gear, not hidden by any links at all.. make sense?
Last edited by ChefYota4x4; 04-17-2011 at 10:54 AM.
04-17-2011, 11:11 AM
#59
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Ok, I'm alright there then. ( I triple checked that b/c I do not want to have to take the timing cover off ever again )
I am going to double check for vacuum leaks again.
I am going to double check for vacuum leaks again.
04-17-2011, 11:12 AM
#60
BTW, I don't care if the guy is THE ULTIMATE GURU of the West, lol.... Always check just to get a feel for your motor and make sure that nothing was missed(That, the lash, is something that's easily checked when the Valve cover is off without really risking damaging anything, etc., ya know what I mean?) Hopefully, he knew, per Tod and Ted of Engnbldr's instructions, that the 268 CAM should be set at 7 and 9, not 8 and 12(??) per FSM instructions.
To be clear, I REALLY doubt this would cause the kind of issues you're having. It IS related to timing of the motor in it's own way, ....the 'mechanical timing' of the valve train and cam lobe duration, etc.... but if you've got a rumble in the jungle like you're saying, ...yeah, I REALLY doubt that's your problem, even if they are off.(Just for the heck of it, you could call and ask him, "What did you set the lash at?", right? Most mechanics appreciate a guy trying to learn how it all works, ya know?)
Don't get me wrong, ...the lash is VERY important, especially with a BRAND NEW CAM! It has to be broken in properly. "7 and 9, cold, run for 30 minute break in at 1200 rpm, then 2000rpm for 20 seconds, then 2500rpm for 20 seconds, then 1200 for 20 seconds"..... you know, whatever it says for the instructions of each CAM. They can vary, right? Then, "At end of 30 minute brake in, go in and check the valve lash, WARM, .......set to .007 and .009 again and run 500 miles. At 500 miles, set lash one more time and retorque head bolts to 63#"......
I'm not trying to freak you out, but it's just a part of your check list, right? My machinist put in a poorly ground cam(TERRIBLE CARNAGE, i should say instead! hahaha).... and within 400 Miles, maybe less, I had a miss SO GNARLY that NO ONE could figure it out.... Guru's, Toyota Dealership Foremans, etc. It took a guy running it on propane with the EFI out of the picture to rule out everything but, "MECHANICAL TIMING" end of things. And, through some more tests with Vacuum, after ruling out the EFI system, ......he came to 'IT'S THE CAM, PERIOD' in his analysis....... HE WAS RIGHT, my cam was LUNCHMEAT, and now, even with the new CAM, ....I still have the same lil miss as I did before the rebuild. So, through talking to TOD AND TED, many others, we've come to "probably an issue with the Rockers having too much play on the shafts, etc."..... one reason being, I've put in all new Adjuster Screws and Nuts, OEM..... The CAM lobe wear looks good.... but play would allow for a serious missing lash that I can never account for while it's not running(obviously it's not running when I'm checking the lash, hahaha)... and, it DOES NOT miss or misfire, backfire, nothing, when under any load.
Just sharing all that as an example of why you have to rule things out, one by one. Ya know?
I'll look asap, trying to see what your symptoms would be most likely caused by. You have to have an FSM or at least a Haynes by now, right?(GET THE FSM, from someone on here.... trust me, it's NIGHT AND DAY in accuracy)... Sorry if you have it, and I missed that, lol. It will take you through troubleshooting with "Runs rough at idle" and "backfires through air box", etc...... and almost always, you can rule it out within a short time. Bcuz, it will take you in order, 1 by 1, through a series of steps to rule things out, like "First, check your air gap and secondary coil resistance. 1. If air gap is good, move to (B.) Ignitor".... << Just an example, not accurate.
To be clear, I REALLY doubt this would cause the kind of issues you're having. It IS related to timing of the motor in it's own way, ....the 'mechanical timing' of the valve train and cam lobe duration, etc.... but if you've got a rumble in the jungle like you're saying, ...yeah, I REALLY doubt that's your problem, even if they are off.(Just for the heck of it, you could call and ask him, "What did you set the lash at?", right? Most mechanics appreciate a guy trying to learn how it all works, ya know?)
Don't get me wrong, ...the lash is VERY important, especially with a BRAND NEW CAM! It has to be broken in properly. "7 and 9, cold, run for 30 minute break in at 1200 rpm, then 2000rpm for 20 seconds, then 2500rpm for 20 seconds, then 1200 for 20 seconds"..... you know, whatever it says for the instructions of each CAM. They can vary, right? Then, "At end of 30 minute brake in, go in and check the valve lash, WARM, .......set to .007 and .009 again and run 500 miles. At 500 miles, set lash one more time and retorque head bolts to 63#"......
I'm not trying to freak you out, but it's just a part of your check list, right? My machinist put in a poorly ground cam(TERRIBLE CARNAGE, i should say instead! hahaha).... and within 400 Miles, maybe less, I had a miss SO GNARLY that NO ONE could figure it out.... Guru's, Toyota Dealership Foremans, etc. It took a guy running it on propane with the EFI out of the picture to rule out everything but, "MECHANICAL TIMING" end of things. And, through some more tests with Vacuum, after ruling out the EFI system, ......he came to 'IT'S THE CAM, PERIOD' in his analysis....... HE WAS RIGHT, my cam was LUNCHMEAT, and now, even with the new CAM, ....I still have the same lil miss as I did before the rebuild. So, through talking to TOD AND TED, many others, we've come to "probably an issue with the Rockers having too much play on the shafts, etc."..... one reason being, I've put in all new Adjuster Screws and Nuts, OEM..... The CAM lobe wear looks good.... but play would allow for a serious missing lash that I can never account for while it's not running(obviously it's not running when I'm checking the lash, hahaha)... and, it DOES NOT miss or misfire, backfire, nothing, when under any load.
Just sharing all that as an example of why you have to rule things out, one by one. Ya know?
I'll look asap, trying to see what your symptoms would be most likely caused by. You have to have an FSM or at least a Haynes by now, right?(GET THE FSM, from someone on here.... trust me, it's NIGHT AND DAY in accuracy)... Sorry if you have it, and I missed that, lol. It will take you through troubleshooting with "Runs rough at idle" and "backfires through air box", etc...... and almost always, you can rule it out within a short time. Bcuz, it will take you in order, 1 by 1, through a series of steps to rule things out, like "First, check your air gap and secondary coil resistance. 1. If air gap is good, move to (B.) Ignitor".... << Just an example, not accurate.
