Hydrogen fuel cell for better gas mileage
10-07-2008, 03:03 AM
#41
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Btw, just on a neutral note, this link was posted in a thread a while ago. Still never got round to reading it as of yet, but it supposedly has some relevance to the subject. Not sure if or how much, however.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1977016170.pdf
Right click on the link and select 'save as' or similar.
10-07-2008, 03:06 AM
#42
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And for the love of God there is no such thing as HHO or brown gas. Please drop these terms and ideas from your vocabulary. Your building and electrolysis rig.
If you can rearrange the molecules in water you need to publish a paper. I guarantee you you will win the Nobel prize for physics. Thats a cool 1.5 million right there plus mad bragging rights. Water is a fascinating molecules. But there is only one way to make it. It has to do with bonding energies. Unfortunately inorganic chemistry was a long time ago, I don't remember all of it, and 90% of people wouldn't understand it anyway.
If you can rearrange the molecules in water you need to publish a paper. I guarantee you you will win the Nobel prize for physics. Thats a cool 1.5 million right there plus mad bragging rights. Water is a fascinating molecules. But there is only one way to make it. It has to do with bonding energies. Unfortunately inorganic chemistry was a long time ago, I don't remember all of it, and 90% of people wouldn't understand it anyway.
Last edited by gte718p; 10-07-2008 at 04:09 AM.
10-07-2008, 03:09 AM
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10-07-2008, 04:36 AM
#44
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Amen to that. This is right up there with claims of hydrogen being 2.5X as "powerful" as gas.
BTW, the Celica has tuning parameters OBD cars do not. If we all went back to centrifugal/vacuum advanced timing and carburetors we might be able to tune our engines appropriately. I was going to touch on the very small sample size but that was covered quite well.
Still how do we reconcile this with that paper to which I linked which showed their results a wash using a rather efficient method for creating their hydrogen and tuning the engine accordingly? For proponents of this, do you see your issue? They used a controlled documented process in a lab environment, you have a few tanks of gas in an uncontrolled undocumented environment.
Frank
BTW, the Celica has tuning parameters OBD cars do not. If we all went back to centrifugal/vacuum advanced timing and carburetors we might be able to tune our engines appropriately. I was going to touch on the very small sample size but that was covered quite well.
Still how do we reconcile this with that paper to which I linked which showed their results a wash using a rather efficient method for creating their hydrogen and tuning the engine accordingly? For proponents of this, do you see your issue? They used a controlled documented process in a lab environment, you have a few tanks of gas in an uncontrolled undocumented environment.
Frank
10-07-2008, 07:39 AM
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For anyone who is interested in building a HHO generator, and doesn't want to waste their money on those water4gass, ect. e-books, you should check out this site.
http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/
It has a really good guide on how to build your own with easy to find parts here:
http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf
As for my $.02 on this, I think its possible to get some MPGs with one of these units by improving the efficiency of petrol's combustion, and not by replacing petrol with HHO, but to see any results, you will need to do some tuning. I think its worth a shot if you have an engine you don't care about.
I was going to do this on my beater 91 nissan 240sx, but I ended up selling it to get my yota!
http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/
It has a really good guide on how to build your own with easy to find parts here:
http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf
As for my $.02 on this, I think its possible to get some MPGs with one of these units by improving the efficiency of petrol's combustion, and not by replacing petrol with HHO, but to see any results, you will need to do some tuning. I think its worth a shot if you have an engine you don't care about.
I was going to do this on my beater 91 nissan 240sx, but I ended up selling it to get my yota!
10-07-2008, 09:00 AM
#46
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A friend and I are putting an HHO setup in his Explorer.
Been working on it for a few weeks.
We're effectively producing HHO gas at 12V.
Next step is to mount it under the hood and run it into the intake.
One other roadblock is to find an addative to keep the water from freezing, but maintian electrolysis.
It will place more load on the alternator. Thus more load on the engine.
We arent expecting gas milage to increase by any means, however, we will be using less gas, so even though milage remains the same, efficiency goes up.
Been working on it for a few weeks.
We're effectively producing HHO gas at 12V.
Next step is to mount it under the hood and run it into the intake.
One other roadblock is to find an addative to keep the water from freezing, but maintian electrolysis.
It will place more load on the alternator. Thus more load on the engine.
We arent expecting gas milage to increase by any means, however, we will be using less gas, so even though milage remains the same, efficiency goes up.
10-07-2008, 09:10 AM
#47
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ryantowry_81 is both right and wrong you can run a motor on hydrogen. Many people have done that. I built a self sustaining system in college. We managed to turn a 5 hp brigs and straton into a 1 hp hydrogen fueled. I do have dyno results and video of that somewhere.
I have no data, but I am willing to believe that hydrogen injection will improve efficiency. The problem is where you draw your system boundary. In order to keep continuous combustion we where cracking and burning something like a litter a minute. I can't remember the exact number but it was big. The problem is you need pure water for this to work. The water input has to be distilled and transported. This has an energy and therefor has a cost associated with it. In California distilled water is between a dollar an three dollars a gallon. If your "burning" three gallons of it an hour to have a 10% increase in MPG your not saving money or energy.
I've been involved in solar vehicle racing, hybrid vehicle racing and development, and alternative energy for a number of years. Its amazing how many people install these systems. Since they are spending a number of hours under the hood anyway they do a tune up, adjust timing, or change fluid and filters while they are there. All of a sudden they are getting better mileage. It must be the magnets.....
I have no data, but I am willing to believe that hydrogen injection will improve efficiency. The problem is where you draw your system boundary. In order to keep continuous combustion we where cracking and burning something like a litter a minute. I can't remember the exact number but it was big. The problem is you need pure water for this to work. The water input has to be distilled and transported. This has an energy and therefor has a cost associated with it. In California distilled water is between a dollar an three dollars a gallon. If your "burning" three gallons of it an hour to have a 10% increase in MPG your not saving money or energy.
I've been involved in solar vehicle racing, hybrid vehicle racing and development, and alternative energy for a number of years. Its amazing how many people install these systems. Since they are spending a number of hours under the hood anyway they do a tune up, adjust timing, or change fluid and filters while they are there. All of a sudden they are getting better mileage. It must be the magnets.....
the system my coworker made did not use anyhere near that much water. he ran a quart mason jar for a month without changing and was still seeing results.
And again if anyone wants a copy of the instructions we used to make it i will send you it in PDF for free so you can see for your self!!
10-07-2008, 09:14 AM
#48
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Doubtful. No matter how sceptical, one will always try to bias, (knowingly or otherwise), towards successful results on something one has vested time and effort into.
Btw, just on a neutral note, this link was posted in a thread a while ago. Still never got round to reading it as of yet, but it supposedly has some relevance to the subject. Not sure if or how much, however.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1977016170.pdf
Right click on the link and select 'save as' or similar.
Btw, just on a neutral note, this link was posted in a thread a while ago. Still never got round to reading it as of yet, but it supposedly has some relevance to the subject. Not sure if or how much, however.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1977016170.pdf
Right click on the link and select 'save as' or similar.
and i dont believe you could skew the test results enough to get a 50% improvement and he retuned it after wards, after he was convinced and now get even better.
All i am trying to say is PM me for the instructions and spend the 15-20 dollars to build the thing and play with it for your self!
10-07-2008, 10:36 AM
#49
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I was talking to a gentlemen last week about HHO Generator technology and how it work. He says he's seen a 48% mileage increase with this on his Dodge 3500 Dually with the Cummins. He also said that some Honda guys have seen as much as a 200% increase in mileage on Civics and similar, with gas engines. Sounds good to me. I'm going to see about working with him to develop a system that works. He's on the right track, but doesn't have it perfected. Here's a shot of what he's got going so far.
He has it ducked directly into the intake immediately before the turbo.
And yes, this is just a prototype and experimental unit.
From what I gather, this system works well on Diesels, but works far better on Gasoline engines. However, with a Carb, you might have to re-jet, or adjust the fuel mix screw. With EFI, to get the most efficiency, you have to get a module that adjusts what the O2 sensor reads. Allowing the EFI system to correctly adjust the amount of Gas it injects into the system.
It's an interesting concept that I am planning on continuing to explore.
Sounds good to me. I'm going to see about working with him to develop a system that works. He's on the right track, but doesn't have it perfected. Here's a shot of what he's got going so far. He has it ducked directly into the intake immediately before the turbo.
And yes, this is just a prototype and experimental unit.
From what I gather, this system works well on Diesels, but works far better on Gasoline engines. However, with a Carb, you might have to re-jet, or adjust the fuel mix screw. With EFI, to get the most efficiency, you have to get a module that adjusts what the O2 sensor reads. Allowing the EFI system to correctly adjust the amount of Gas it injects into the system.
It's an interesting concept that I am planning on continuing to explore.
10-07-2008, 05:19 PM
#50
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A mason Jar a month. Are you Freaking kidding me. That will produce about 2 liters of hydrogen at STP.
Think about propane or nitrous injection. Both have higher energy densities then Hydrogen. They are stored in compressed liquid form in order to allow enough gas to be effective. Real hydrogen vehicles use 100 lb cylinders at 3000 psi to store hydrogen.
ryantowry_81 thanks I have several set of plans already. I've built similiar systems several times. As I said, I've built a sort of self sustaining engine.
This thread is proof that people are stupid. String theory indicated there are at least 36 dimensions in addition to the 4 you are familiar with. You can only interact with other dimensions at places where the intersect. I have a set of magnets that will allow you ton bring a string from another dimension into alignment. You'll be able to have free energy from another dimension. Of course its not free to the other dimension, but who cares about it. Most people see a 10% -15% improvement in MPG when used on a car. Power plants are reporting 30%-45% improvement on efficiency. My good buddy Bob has been using it for about 4 years. He loves it. I'll sell you the plans for $30 dollars. Satisfaction guaranteed!!!!
Think about propane or nitrous injection. Both have higher energy densities then Hydrogen. They are stored in compressed liquid form in order to allow enough gas to be effective. Real hydrogen vehicles use 100 lb cylinders at 3000 psi to store hydrogen.
ryantowry_81 thanks I have several set of plans already. I've built similiar systems several times. As I said, I've built a sort of self sustaining engine.
This thread is proof that people are stupid. String theory indicated there are at least 36 dimensions in addition to the 4 you are familiar with. You can only interact with other dimensions at places where the intersect. I have a set of magnets that will allow you ton bring a string from another dimension into alignment. You'll be able to have free energy from another dimension. Of course its not free to the other dimension, but who cares about it. Most people see a 10% -15% improvement in MPG when used on a car. Power plants are reporting 30%-45% improvement on efficiency. My good buddy Bob has been using it for about 4 years. He loves it. I'll sell you the plans for $30 dollars. Satisfaction guaranteed!!!!
10-07-2008, 05:22 PM
#51
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that's the manifestation of the zero-point energy I mentioned earlier, right?
but as an aside, a mason jar is about what... a quart?
the NASA paper linked to earlier was about a test on a Cadillac engine, running at a constant RPM, and the best gains were from bottled hydrogen... and the other prime test was from hydrogen created from a catalytic reaction during the distillation of methanol (which couldn't keep up with engine demand, by the way... and is more efficient than electrolysis).... and neither gave results like what's being claimed from this HHO/Brown's gas... which is water, but just has modified bonds... but it's hydrogen and oxygen... but not water.
but as an aside, a mason jar is about what... a quart?
the NASA paper linked to earlier was about a test on a Cadillac engine, running at a constant RPM, and the best gains were from bottled hydrogen... and the other prime test was from hydrogen created from a catalytic reaction during the distillation of methanol (which couldn't keep up with engine demand, by the way... and is more efficient than electrolysis).... and neither gave results like what's being claimed from this HHO/Brown's gas... which is water, but just has modified bonds... but it's hydrogen and oxygen... but not water.
Last edited by abecedarian; 10-07-2008 at 05:28 PM.
10-07-2008, 05:26 PM
#52
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[QUOTE=grant526;50939911]
He has it ducked directly into the intake immediately before the turbo.
And yes, this is just a prototype and experimental unit.
QUOTE]
This guy is a moron because he has HHO on his gas generator. He basically has a propane injection system. Accept propane has higher energy density ans is stored at hundreds of psi in order to get enough mass to provide a substantial amount of energy to the system.
Anyway its a good science fair experiment. If you want to mess with it more power to you. I may build another system just for fun. However physics doesn't lie. If you want to waste money just send it to me. I'll make your car more fuel efficient.
And I'm done with this thread.....
He has it ducked directly into the intake immediately before the turbo.
And yes, this is just a prototype and experimental unit.
QUOTE]
This guy is a moron because he has HHO on his gas generator. He basically has a propane injection system. Accept propane has higher energy density ans is stored at hundreds of psi in order to get enough mass to provide a substantial amount of energy to the system.
Anyway its a good science fair experiment. If you want to mess with it more power to you. I may build another system just for fun. However physics doesn't lie. If you want to waste money just send it to me. I'll make your car more fuel efficient.
And I'm done with this thread.....
10-08-2008, 04:11 AM
#55
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that is not entirely true. for one these devices dont produce strait hydrogen they produce H-O gas or browns gas that is produced by rearranging the H_2-O molecules to have a different bonding structure to allow it to burn. this makes it extremely volitile becasue the oxygen is already there so it can partially burn in a vacumm.
As for this being a hoax, i have experimented with the process and have a coworker that has a home made one from a mason jar in his 76ish celica with the 3 speed automatic and he went from 24 MPG to 32MPG with an average run temp drop of 10ºF. he had to lean out his carb by a full turn on the mixture screw and advance his timing an additional 12º to make it run efficiently becasue it burns so much quicker and becasue the browns gas is not carbon based it dose not have any negative emissions and will actually decrease the amount of carbon deposites you get in your motor.
I have a copy of instruction on how to make a basic browns gas generator like my coworker has in his car, if you are interested in a copy PM me your email and i will send it to you so you can build one to play with for your self.
As for this being a hoax, i have experimented with the process and have a coworker that has a home made one from a mason jar in his 76ish celica with the 3 speed automatic and he went from 24 MPG to 32MPG with an average run temp drop of 10ºF. he had to lean out his carb by a full turn on the mixture screw and advance his timing an additional 12º to make it run efficiently becasue it burns so much quicker and becasue the browns gas is not carbon based it dose not have any negative emissions and will actually decrease the amount of carbon deposites you get in your motor.
I have a copy of instruction on how to make a basic browns gas generator like my coworker has in his car, if you are interested in a copy PM me your email and i will send it to you so you can build one to play with for your self.
Ryan, your buddy SHOULD be getting 32 mpg in his Celica! Highway was rated at 34 MPG.
http://www.toyoland.com/cars/celica.html
Here's a perfect example of tricking yourself into thinking you done something more than tune car up and maybe adjust your driving habits.
Again, zero data gathered.
Frank
10-08-2008, 09:26 AM
#56
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Ryan, your buddy SHOULD be getting 32 mpg in his Celica! Highway was rated at 34 MPG.
http://www.toyoland.com/cars/celica.html
Here's a perfect example of tricking yourself into thinking you done something more than tune car up and maybe adjust your driving habits.
Again, zero data gathered.
Frank
http://www.toyoland.com/cars/celica.html
Here's a perfect example of tricking yourself into thinking you done something more than tune car up and maybe adjust your driving habits.
Again, zero data gathered.
Frank
If you would have actually read my first post you would have seen that he has an non overdrive automatic, no where near the MPG that the five speed gets on the hwy, and also when those were rated back inn the 70's they probably were talking about 55-60MPH not the 65-70MPH we do now.
Good try though.
And my coworker has owned many dirt track race cars and has been wrenching on them for years longer than i have been alive and we both looked into that motor prior and it was running flawlessly and had just recently passed I/M (emmissions) with flying colors!
we didn't take any data because we didn't give a if anyone else believed it as long as we saved money on our . so go ahead and believe it or not i dont give a , better yet PM me and i will give you the instructions for it like 20+ people have already and try this for your self and then make your decision off of first hand experience instead of just what you read on the internet!
believe what you want to believe but it worked for us, so take your what ifs and negative critasizm and shove it!!!
sorry I get a little worked up when people call me a liar........
10-08-2008, 11:50 AM
#57
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I don't know what to say. You are getting fuel economy around where you should be with a properly tuned vehicle. Nothing here is surprising. The auto usually resolves to the same final drive as the stick shift BTW. The differences in MPG are generally more pronounced at city speeds. Driving habits have a huge affect on this.
No one with these mods ever seems to take data.
Frank
No one with these mods ever seems to take data.
Frank
10-08-2008, 01:04 PM
#58
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I don't know what to say. You are getting fuel economy around where you should be with a properly tuned vehicle. Nothing here is surprising. The auto usually resolves to the same final drive as the stick shift BTW. The differences in MPG are generally more pronounced at city speeds. Driving habits have a huge affect on this.
No one with these mods ever seems to take data.
Frank
No one with these mods ever seems to take data.
Frank
take your own data!!!!
10-08-2008, 01:34 PM
#59
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I look this up on the mythbuster forum and it has been busted. It does not work. anyone that says other wise is most likey a spammer or really mis informed by fake web site trying to sell some thing.
10-08-2008, 02:31 PM
#60
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