Clutch or Something Else?
08-22-2011, 12:23 PM
#1
Clutch or Something Else?
I bought a 1990 3VZ-FE 4runner 4x4 with the r150f transmission about two months ago.
The truck has 240000 miles on it, and the motor was replaced about 40,000 ago after the PO took it to a lube shop that took off the filter, and never put it back on. Engine died on the drive home.
When the engine was put in, everything forward of and including the clutch was replaced.
The PO decided to change the oil over from dino to 5w-30 full synth and mentioned prior to the sale that it dripped a bit afterward. He also added that in the last year or so, the truck was only driven about 20mi/week. In Arizona, that will dry out seals pretty quickly.
Dye tests indicate there are a bunch of seep-type leaks everywhere there is a gasket.
I know these engines are dogs, but I can't tell if it's all dog, or if there's some clutch slip in there.
The pedal feels fine, the master cylinder is full and brand new, and the slave moves freely.
Putting it in 4th with the parking brake on and pegging the RPMs at 2500 and slowly letting off the clutch stalls the truck at about 1000-1500 rpms. In both 1st and reverse, the truck will pull through the parking brake without over-revving.
However, given that there's oil coating everything underneath, and there is a possible leak in the input shaft seal (mentioned in service paperwork he gave me with the truck, but suggested by a less-than-reputable dealership), I wonder if I don't have an oil-soaked clutch that should be replaced.
Putting the front tires all the way against a 7-inch curb and trying to crawl the curb from a dead stop stalls the truck (which should mean the clutch is fine), but going up a steep hill at 40mph in 4th and flooring it bleeds power.
It just doesn't feel right.
Then again, maybe I'm crazy.
Thoughts?
The truck has 240000 miles on it, and the motor was replaced about 40,000 ago after the PO took it to a lube shop that took off the filter, and never put it back on. Engine died on the drive home.
When the engine was put in, everything forward of and including the clutch was replaced.
The PO decided to change the oil over from dino to 5w-30 full synth and mentioned prior to the sale that it dripped a bit afterward. He also added that in the last year or so, the truck was only driven about 20mi/week. In Arizona, that will dry out seals pretty quickly.
Dye tests indicate there are a bunch of seep-type leaks everywhere there is a gasket.
I know these engines are dogs, but I can't tell if it's all dog, or if there's some clutch slip in there.
The pedal feels fine, the master cylinder is full and brand new, and the slave moves freely.
Putting it in 4th with the parking brake on and pegging the RPMs at 2500 and slowly letting off the clutch stalls the truck at about 1000-1500 rpms. In both 1st and reverse, the truck will pull through the parking brake without over-revving.
However, given that there's oil coating everything underneath, and there is a possible leak in the input shaft seal (mentioned in service paperwork he gave me with the truck, but suggested by a less-than-reputable dealership), I wonder if I don't have an oil-soaked clutch that should be replaced.
Putting the front tires all the way against a 7-inch curb and trying to crawl the curb from a dead stop stalls the truck (which should mean the clutch is fine), but going up a steep hill at 40mph in 4th and flooring it bleeds power.
It just doesn't feel right.
Then again, maybe I'm crazy.
Thoughts?
08-22-2011, 01:23 PM
#2
I had the same engine that leaked oil everywhere. When I pulled it out after HG, the clutch was dry. I don't think oil got in there. There was a lot of oil on the inside of the bell housing, that's all.
3.0 engine is not the fastest on the block either.
Maybe PO use bigger tires without changing the gears. Find out what tires originally came with the truck. That will tell you what gear you should have.
3.0 engine is not the fastest on the block either.
Maybe PO use bigger tires without changing the gears. Find out what tires originally came with the truck. That will tell you what gear you should have.
08-22-2011, 01:46 PM
#3
It's running 31x10.50s (it shipped from Japan with the same size per the build sheet) and is geared at 4.56:1. That should be plenty of beef to turn those tires.
1st gear hits the 15mph shift point a little short of 2500 Rome, which seems right to me, and it doesn't shudder in 1st or reverse. It will idle in 1st gear all day at 800 rpms for about 3 mph with no skinny pedal.
1st gear hits the 15mph shift point a little short of 2500 Rome, which seems right to me, and it doesn't shudder in 1st or reverse. It will idle in 1st gear all day at 800 rpms for about 3 mph with no skinny pedal.
08-23-2011, 11:22 AM
#6
Thanks for the input.
No burning clutch smell, although I do get the occasional whiff of hypoid.
I'll hunt down a similar truck and give it a run. At that age, I don't expect perfection but it's my DD and Mexico truck, so I'd like to head off any "it's not coming home and I'm stuck in the middle of nowhere" problems before they happen.
I've always loved these things, and coming from a Wrangler I bought new in 2005, this thing's a champ. TJ was nothing but problems in the 36k I had it.
No burning clutch smell, although I do get the occasional whiff of hypoid.
I'll hunt down a similar truck and give it a run. At that age, I don't expect perfection but it's my DD and Mexico truck, so I'd like to head off any "it's not coming home and I'm stuck in the middle of nowhere" problems before they happen.
I've always loved these things, and coming from a Wrangler I bought new in 2005, this thing's a champ. TJ was nothing but problems in the 36k I had it.
08-24-2011, 12:57 AM
#7
Contributing Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: TENN Native Languishing in Virginia
Posts: 4,787
Likes: 0
Received 34 Likes
on
14 Posts
"but going up a steep hill at 40mph in 4th and flooring it bleeds power."
What exactly do you mean by this? It struggles to get up a steep hill in 4th? Have you checked for ECU codes?
What exactly do you mean by this? It struggles to get up a steep hill in 4th? Have you checked for ECU codes?
Trending Topics
08-31-2011, 05:45 PM
#8
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I've been out of town. In any case, back now and I just jumped the diagnostic terminals and it would appear that I have a code 12. No CEL, though; which is why I hadn't previously checked this.
I've done some looking around about 12, and know it's a RPM signal issue, but not much beyond that.
Is this like a "replace the distributor" kind of thing? The cap looks new, but I haven't had it off yet to look at the rotor.
I've done some looking around about 12, and know it's a RPM signal issue, but not much beyond that.
Is this like a "replace the distributor" kind of thing? The cap looks new, but I haven't had it off yet to look at the rotor.
09-01-2011, 11:20 AM
#9
Contributing Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: TENN Native Languishing in Virginia
Posts: 4,787
Likes: 0
Received 34 Likes
on
14 Posts
Well, distributor is one possibility, but there are probably others that you need to check first. I'd definitely check wiring to the distributor, as well as the plug connections.
MudHippy & Sb5walker both can address this better than I~
Good luck!
MudHippy & Sb5walker both can address this better than I~
Good luck!
09-01-2011, 11:50 AM
#10
Well, I'm under the hood now; or at least this afternoon.
The harness going to the distributor is supple, and the wires are in good shape. The same can be said for all the wires to/from the coil and igniter. The ground is present, clean and in good shape.
I pulled the distributor cap, and while there's some normal wear and tear, the cap and rotor are in fine working order.
With the engine off (obviously) grasping the rotor and shaking it gently indicates that the distributor shaft has some play in it along the axis of its usual rotation. It's a few millimeters or about an eighth of an inch of play, I'd say.
Video of the play: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1-1JVucK1k
There is also a small amount of play perpendicular to the plane of rotation (as in pulling the shaft away from the block).
This is the first vehicle with a distributor I've touched in probably 15 years. I'd just throw a part at it, except it's a $300 distributor new and $200 reman.
The FSM says something about using a Special Service Tool to gauge the gap between the pickups in the distributor. Can this be checked without the SST?
The harness going to the distributor is supple, and the wires are in good shape. The same can be said for all the wires to/from the coil and igniter. The ground is present, clean and in good shape.
I pulled the distributor cap, and while there's some normal wear and tear, the cap and rotor are in fine working order.
With the engine off (obviously) grasping the rotor and shaking it gently indicates that the distributor shaft has some play in it along the axis of its usual rotation. It's a few millimeters or about an eighth of an inch of play, I'd say.
Video of the play: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1-1JVucK1k
There is also a small amount of play perpendicular to the plane of rotation (as in pulling the shaft away from the block).
This is the first vehicle with a distributor I've touched in probably 15 years. I'd just throw a part at it, except it's a $300 distributor new and $200 reman.
The FSM says something about using a Special Service Tool to gauge the gap between the pickups in the distributor. Can this be checked without the SST?
Last edited by ToyotaViejo; 09-01-2011 at 12:00 PM.
09-01-2011, 01:13 PM
#11
I just put the cap back on, cleared the code (EFI fuse pull) and have started it twice, idled it for a bit each time, and then pulled codes.
No code so far.
In the last two tanks, I've lost 1-2mpg down to 14.5 mpg. I'm not expecting a Corolla performance out of this thing, but a dip in economy like that usually means something; although it remains to be seen whether or not a code 12 would even have that effect.
The only thing I've done differently than the PO (only had it 2.5 months) is change from 5w30 full-syn to 10w40 MaxLife blend. She was a little seepy out of every gasket on the full syn; and I think 5w-30 is a little light for all the city driving I do.
She idles fine. 1500rpm cold start, 800 after being driven. Occasionally idle will drop to 500, and it will run a little rough, but it never feels like it's going to die.
Very occasionally, I'll put the key over to start, and absolutely nothing happens. A second attempt and it fires right up. I attribute that to a worn ignition cylinder. I could probably start it with a screwdriver.
My ohmmeter has pissadeared, so I'm going to get a new one and run some errands. Then I'll start testing resistances and re-check for codes after it's left my driveway.
I'm sure we're passed the point where there's Just One Problem™, so in addition to whatever's going on with the distributor/start/ignition could the non-OEM O2 have died? Can't test it without the meter, though.
No code so far.
In the last two tanks, I've lost 1-2mpg down to 14.5 mpg. I'm not expecting a Corolla performance out of this thing, but a dip in economy like that usually means something; although it remains to be seen whether or not a code 12 would even have that effect.
The only thing I've done differently than the PO (only had it 2.5 months) is change from 5w30 full-syn to 10w40 MaxLife blend. She was a little seepy out of every gasket on the full syn; and I think 5w-30 is a little light for all the city driving I do.
She idles fine. 1500rpm cold start, 800 after being driven. Occasionally idle will drop to 500, and it will run a little rough, but it never feels like it's going to die.
Very occasionally, I'll put the key over to start, and absolutely nothing happens. A second attempt and it fires right up. I attribute that to a worn ignition cylinder. I could probably start it with a screwdriver.
My ohmmeter has pissadeared, so I'm going to get a new one and run some errands. Then I'll start testing resistances and re-check for codes after it's left my driveway.
I'm sure we're passed the point where there's Just One Problem™, so in addition to whatever's going on with the distributor/start/ignition could the non-OEM O2 have died? Can't test it without the meter, though.
09-02-2011, 03:30 PM
#12
Ok, I think I've gotten somewhere.
Still no codes after driving around yesterday afternoon. BUT, this morning, it did the "key-turn-and-nothing" thing. Turned the key a second time, and she came right to life.
Code 12. Which seems to make sense, since this apparently measures an RPM signal within 2 seconds of key on. If the key goes to on and the engine doesn't spin, there are no RPMs to report.
O2 sensor tests towards the upper limit (half an ohm or so) of good at the plug, and I dropped the cat to inspect for plugging - it looks not new, but very clear.
Here's the interesting part:
I DMM'd the contacts at the throttle position sensor, and I want to confirm that this is a bad sensor, not a mis-adjusted one:
Test 1 (Throttle closed): Resistance across VTA to E2 should be 200Ω-800Ω. Mine reads 844Ω. Test result: FAIL
Test 2 (.50mm off stop screw): Resistance across IDL to E2 should be less than 2300Ω. Mine is 193Ω. Test result: PASS
Test 3 (.77mm from stop screw):Resistance IDL to E2 should be ∞. Mine reads 196Ω. Test result: FAIL
Test 4 (Wide open Throttle): Resistance VTA to E2 should be 3300Ω-10,000Ω. Mine reads 3266Ω. Test result: FAIL
Test 5 ( leave throttle alone): Resistance Vcc to E2 should be 4000Ω-9000Ω. Mine reads 6000Ω. Test result: PASS
So I plugged the harness back into the sensor, and cranked over the truck. Idle was about 1500. Then I jumped the timing test port and absolutely nothing happened. No idle change. When I pulled the jumper, nothing changed.
Am I dealing with a dead TPS (values tested at the sensor, not at the computer) or a mis-aligned TPS?
From what I've read, it would appear that the symptoms of a dead or malfunctioning TPS are exactly what I'm seeing - even less throttle response than the 3VZE usually has, reduced fuel economy, and some bogging between 2k and 3k RPMS.
Assuming it's dead, some say to pull the whole throttle body, others say just to pull the sensor. Any ideas on which is the way to go?
Still no codes after driving around yesterday afternoon. BUT, this morning, it did the "key-turn-and-nothing" thing. Turned the key a second time, and she came right to life.
Code 12. Which seems to make sense, since this apparently measures an RPM signal within 2 seconds of key on. If the key goes to on and the engine doesn't spin, there are no RPMs to report.
O2 sensor tests towards the upper limit (half an ohm or so) of good at the plug, and I dropped the cat to inspect for plugging - it looks not new, but very clear.
Here's the interesting part:
I DMM'd the contacts at the throttle position sensor, and I want to confirm that this is a bad sensor, not a mis-adjusted one:
Test 1 (Throttle closed): Resistance across VTA to E2 should be 200Ω-800Ω. Mine reads 844Ω. Test result: FAIL
Test 2 (.50mm off stop screw): Resistance across IDL to E2 should be less than 2300Ω. Mine is 193Ω. Test result: PASS
Test 3 (.77mm from stop screw):Resistance IDL to E2 should be ∞. Mine reads 196Ω. Test result: FAIL
Test 4 (Wide open Throttle): Resistance VTA to E2 should be 3300Ω-10,000Ω. Mine reads 3266Ω. Test result: FAIL
Test 5 ( leave throttle alone): Resistance Vcc to E2 should be 4000Ω-9000Ω. Mine reads 6000Ω. Test result: PASS
So I plugged the harness back into the sensor, and cranked over the truck. Idle was about 1500. Then I jumped the timing test port and absolutely nothing happened. No idle change. When I pulled the jumper, nothing changed.
Am I dealing with a dead TPS (values tested at the sensor, not at the computer) or a mis-aligned TPS?
From what I've read, it would appear that the symptoms of a dead or malfunctioning TPS are exactly what I'm seeing - even less throttle response than the 3VZE usually has, reduced fuel economy, and some bogging between 2k and 3k RPMS.
Assuming it's dead, some say to pull the whole throttle body, others say just to pull the sensor. Any ideas on which is the way to go?
09-02-2011, 04:07 PM
#13
Registered User
Its not uncommon for the electrical part of the ignition switch to wear out after 20 plus years of use. I had to replace the ignition switch in my 86 4Runner last week because it finally wore out and wouldn`t start. Theas probably the problem your having.
The two things i would recommend that you replace are the TPS and the 02 sensor, and use a Denso 02 sensor, because Bosch 02 sensors don`t work well in toyota engines.
Also replace the fuel filter, and pull the throttle body and give it a good cleaning. That will help the performance of your engine a lot.
The two things i would recommend that you replace are the TPS and the 02 sensor, and use a Denso 02 sensor, because Bosch 02 sensors don`t work well in toyota engines.
Also replace the fuel filter, and pull the throttle body and give it a good cleaning. That will help the performance of your engine a lot.
09-02-2011, 04:11 PM
#14
Yeah, I figure that the lock cylinder/contacts are going out. I'll get to that soon. Now I'm more interested in getting this gas/power bug squashed.
I figured it would be best to pull the TB and clean it all out, etc. Good thing I've got a long weekend to futz with it.
I just wanted to make sure that there was no "OMFG-don't-pull-it" reason not to.
Once I've got the TPS off the TB, I can use basically anything I want solvent wise to clean it, no?
I figured it would be best to pull the TB and clean it all out, etc. Good thing I've got a long weekend to futz with it.
I just wanted to make sure that there was no "OMFG-don't-pull-it" reason not to.
Once I've got the TPS off the TB, I can use basically anything I want solvent wise to clean it, no?
09-02-2011, 04:39 PM
#15
Registered User
The best thing ive found to clean the throttle body is carb cleaner.
On the ignition switch, the part were you put the key and the electrical part of the ignition switch are two seperate parts. You need the electrical part of the ignition switch.
On the ignition switch, the part were you put the key and the electrical part of the ignition switch are two seperate parts. You need the electrical part of the ignition switch.
09-02-2011, 05:00 PM
#16
Thanks,myyota. I assumed it was a one-piece deal. Any idea what the electrical component is called (ignition switch?) and what the part number is? How bad is it to yank?
09-02-2011, 05:24 PM
#17
Registered User
I just checked on the price of the ignition switch for your 4Runner, and they have one for 50.00 dollars plus shipping. Look under electrical switch & relay, and then look for ignition starter switch, and you will find it.
After you get it, you can pm me and i can give you some tips to replace it if needed.
09-02-2011, 08:03 PM
#18
Registered User
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Flagstaffrica, Land of Trustafarians
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has oil contaminated the clutch or pressure plate? You can get some wicked chatter & slippage if those parts are oil-soaked. IMHO... Happened years ago on f-250 I owned. The rear main failed, spewed oil EVERYWHERE!!! and the engine was shut down quickly. The motor was saved but the clutch & pressure plate were soaked. Re-did my clutch kit after fixing the rear main seal & had no more slipping issues, even though the previous clutch was less than a few thousand miles old. Seems the hot oil spewing from the engine contaminated all of that stuff & caused some weird-ness with clutch engagement.
Your mileage may vary however, best of luck getting it fixed
Your mileage may vary however, best of luck getting it fixed
09-03-2011, 01:22 PM
#19
Longbed, no idea if the clutch is soaked in oil. I haven't dropped the tranny. Nothing I would call wicked chatter or slippage. In fact, if I abuse the clutch it smells like burning clutch, not burning oil.
In any case, it passes clutch tests; if not gracefully. PO might have put a crappy clutch in. He was more interested in washing the truck and detailing the tires than anything involving wrenches or thinking.
Today, I pulled the throttle body and the TPS sensor. Cleaned the TB (not too bad, actually) and replaced and set the TPS per FSM instructions. No more random idle. A/C off and warm it's at 850. A/C on and warm it's about 1100 (hard to see exactly). Exhaust smells less rich too. Throttle response seems improved, but honestly, it's hard to tell. Could be all in my head.
Going to order a Denso o2 sensor because no one in town has one, and will probably do plug, cap and wires as long as I'm sitting here dirty.
The only thing I notice that hasn't changed is that jumping the diagnostic terminals with the engine running does NOT change the RPMs either at idle or loaded. It didn't before the TPS and it doesn't now. Is this a big problem?
Hopefully this gets me back up in mileage and drivability. That would make me feel better about chasing down the leaks and everything else.
In any case, it passes clutch tests; if not gracefully. PO might have put a crappy clutch in. He was more interested in washing the truck and detailing the tires than anything involving wrenches or thinking.
Today, I pulled the throttle body and the TPS sensor. Cleaned the TB (not too bad, actually) and replaced and set the TPS per FSM instructions. No more random idle. A/C off and warm it's at 850. A/C on and warm it's about 1100 (hard to see exactly). Exhaust smells less rich too. Throttle response seems improved, but honestly, it's hard to tell. Could be all in my head.
Going to order a Denso o2 sensor because no one in town has one, and will probably do plug, cap and wires as long as I'm sitting here dirty.
The only thing I notice that hasn't changed is that jumping the diagnostic terminals with the engine running does NOT change the RPMs either at idle or loaded. It didn't before the TPS and it doesn't now. Is this a big problem?
Hopefully this gets me back up in mileage and drivability. That would make me feel better about chasing down the leaks and everything else.
09-08-2011, 06:43 PM
#20
Mas updates:
New o2 sensor went in this evening, and I changed the plugs, wires, cap and rotor over the weekend too. PO (or a mechanic) cross threaded #4 which pissed me off to no end; since it's one of the easiest in the engine to access.
I was able to thread in and seat the new plug after cleaning the threads, so here's to hoping that it holds....
That said, this is probably one of the most challenging engines for plug changes. They pitch every which way, and are usually boxed in by auxiliary components. For me, I pulled the intake hose, the evap canister and undid most of the vacuum on the passenger side.
When I pulled the intake hose, I noticed it was hardened and had a small crack under the hose clamp. I can't say that it contributed to the problem, but I can say that it was replaced.
An ISR is in the future, but for now, I want to get this thing in top stock form before changing design parameters.
I've driven it 30 or so miles since the changes (minus the o2 sensor), and the needle has dropped by 1/8 of a tank or so. Knocking frantically on wood, this may have done it.
I have not tested the VAFM yet, nor have I pressure tested the fuel system. Oddly, my EFI tester has an adapter for a Volvo Penta, but not the 3vze... Damned dumb banjo bolts...
I also need to check the EGR valve, and the evap canister behaves weirdly. The dealer can't find an evap can, and Autozone wants $300. If anyone has an extra laying around...
I was going to test engine compression, but after finding the cross-threaded plug, I figured I'd cut my losses by only threading one thing into that hole.
Interestingly, there was a small amount of oil in the intake tube when I pulled it. First thought was dead PCV, but the old one was clear and the hose was in good shape. I replaced all of it to be sure, but it was anything but a gunked-up mess.
As an aside, it is completely possible to change the PCV without yanking the plenum by having on hand 1 14-inch compound needle-nose pliers and 1 14-inch 45° needle nose pliers - as long as you have disconnected all the passenger side vacuum.
I'll bet the distributor could stand a replacement, but if I get the 16-17mpg in the city the truck should get, I'll stop pulling parts for now.
New o2 sensor went in this evening, and I changed the plugs, wires, cap and rotor over the weekend too. PO (or a mechanic) cross threaded #4 which pissed me off to no end; since it's one of the easiest in the engine to access.
I was able to thread in and seat the new plug after cleaning the threads, so here's to hoping that it holds....
That said, this is probably one of the most challenging engines for plug changes. They pitch every which way, and are usually boxed in by auxiliary components. For me, I pulled the intake hose, the evap canister and undid most of the vacuum on the passenger side.
When I pulled the intake hose, I noticed it was hardened and had a small crack under the hose clamp. I can't say that it contributed to the problem, but I can say that it was replaced.
An ISR is in the future, but for now, I want to get this thing in top stock form before changing design parameters.
I've driven it 30 or so miles since the changes (minus the o2 sensor), and the needle has dropped by 1/8 of a tank or so. Knocking frantically on wood, this may have done it.
I have not tested the VAFM yet, nor have I pressure tested the fuel system. Oddly, my EFI tester has an adapter for a Volvo Penta, but not the 3vze... Damned dumb banjo bolts...
I also need to check the EGR valve, and the evap canister behaves weirdly. The dealer can't find an evap can, and Autozone wants $300. If anyone has an extra laying around...
I was going to test engine compression, but after finding the cross-threaded plug, I figured I'd cut my losses by only threading one thing into that hole.
Interestingly, there was a small amount of oil in the intake tube when I pulled it. First thought was dead PCV, but the old one was clear and the hose was in good shape. I replaced all of it to be sure, but it was anything but a gunked-up mess.
As an aside, it is completely possible to change the PCV without yanking the plenum by having on hand 1 14-inch compound needle-nose pliers and 1 14-inch 45° needle nose pliers - as long as you have disconnected all the passenger side vacuum.
I'll bet the distributor could stand a replacement, but if I get the 16-17mpg in the city the truck should get, I'll stop pulling parts for now.
