rdlsz24

On the 22RE I looked at the crank pulley to know if it was at TDC. I would think the 22R would be the same. If the notch in the crank is lined up with the 0 and your rockers on cylinder 1 are loose you are at tdc on cylinder 1 compression stroke.

Rob

83

Thanks. I'll keep using what I've found on the link I posted. I think it must be the FSM but I guess nobody wants to look at it. I saw your post before about using the starter to get that bolt off, but it scared me.

Ok, so the first photo is TDC, if I find that the first cylinder rockers are loose?

Sked

Dont go by the camshaft to read TDC since the timing chain could be stretched. Read the main pulley on your Crank since the cam rotates twice per each crank rotation.

83

Yeah....see the guide I was following had me take that pulley off, then replace the crank bolt and get the engine to TDC from there. So unfortunately it's a bit late for that. Can I go with the idea that the cam is lined up, and #1 clylinder loose?

83

Ok, so I put the pulley back on. You're saying that when the pulley notch is at zero, I'm at TDC? Regardless of what's going on up above on the cam? This TDC crap is really getting aggravating, especially since I know it's not hard, but I'm just not getting something. When my pulley notch is at zero, there's definitely NOT anything lined up with the cam. Forgive my stupidity, but I can't feel "loose" cylinders. There's a little play in some of them (and I mean a very little), but it seems like almost every other one has that much play. Like one along each cylinder.There aren't any that just jump out and scream "I'M LOOSE!!".

Thanks for all your help so far. It's slowly making more and more sense to me I think, but I'm not there yet..

83

Ok, got it. Weird how things just won't make sense, then suddenly they do. So...........the timing chain was making a LOT of noise. But somebody's replaced once before already. The plastic guides are just fine. What's making the noise? The cover is pretty chewed up, but I think that's from the original chain. Can't be sure, though.

Red_Chili

Wow, the timing cover took a beating. Somebody neglected the TC for a long time.

Not to be the bearer of bad news, but... you gotta ask yourself where all those fragments went. One thing you can easily check for is scoring in your oil pump. If you have scoring, you really should pull a main bearing and rod bearing and have a look see...

If the crank is undamaged you can even replace the bearings in the truck if need be. Be sure to size them.

Wow, they loved RTV, didn't they? Use less this time. The FSM details checking the chain itself.

83

Yes that sure sounds like fun.........I looked at the oil pump over the weekend and it looked ok to me, but then I wasn't really looking too close for damage, so I'll look again. I wonder if they replaced it when they did the chain. They did like RTV, I'm guessing that's why the front of the engine was completely covered in oil.

Makes me think I aught to pull the oil pan too, to make sure there's nothing in there.

Main bearing and rod bearing sound scary.

Now seeing as the plastic guides are fine, how was the chain making so much noise? Was it maybe not the chain? Had a mechanic tell me it was, but I suppose you can't necessarily tell until you open it up? I guess what I'm almost wondering is, if the oil pump looks ok, do I still go through with replacing the chain & guides? I guess that's where the FSM comes in handy. I just don't get where all the noise was coming from if the chain is fine, and if there's much worse stuff going on.....not sure how deep I'm willing to go.

Red_Chili

The chain is cheap insurance. It is entirely possible the PO was a bonehead and slapped some new guides in there. It is also entirely possible your chain tensioner clogged with - wait for it...


...wait for it...


some of the excess RTV that came loose and floated around.
Been known to happen.

Mains and rod big end bearings really are no big deal. Easier than what you've done already. Unless the crank got damaged... but even that is no big deal. If it did you may as well get the cylinders bored .020 and have a fresh motor, except for pulling the motor out, you don't really have all THAT much further to go.

And, YES!!! absolutely pull the pan and clean it out. If you are lucky, all the aluminum shards got caught up in the splooge at the bottom of the pan.

Did you get the FSM yet?
Here is a link:
Web linkie

83

Ok, thanks
I must admit though, I didn't pull the head..so I'm guessing there still is some work left, if i'm going to go that far. Can I, or should I assume that if the oil pump shows no evidence of having passed any engine stones, that I can just go with the chain replacement & oil pan cleanup and call it good (or at least good for now)?

Thanks very much for the help and advice.

Red_Chili

Should be fine, BUT... pulling a main bearing cap is really no big deal (you do have a torque wrench, doncha?) and then you KNOW.

IMHO you must pull the head and replace the HG as preventative maintenance if nothing else. Again, not that much more to do.

83

Oh boy, the back and forth on the HG. I was with you, but was convinced not to mess with the head unless it was giving me trouble, since I was just as likely to mess something up (so I was told). I guess I'll have to think how much I want to do. I'd certainly like to not be going back into my engine any time soon.

I do have a crappy torque wrench, but I can borrow one with a "clicker" I guess, so I should be good..

Thanks for the FSM link.

83

Ok, have a look. Is this normal for an old engine, or something I should worry about? I sure hope I can get it running again. This is deeper than I've ever been into an engine.

gsb15

wow, this seems familiar, i replaced the timing chain in my '83 because of the rattle, only to find that the chain was fine. the rattle just turned out to be my valves chattering away because they werent getting oil

Red_Chili

Looks like #2 and #3 cylinders are too clean, hard to tell. If so, sure sign of HG failure.

Regards not wanting to disturb the head until it gives you trouble, IMHO it will give you trouble of a bigger sort if you don't replace the HG after its service life. Like, corroding the head or worse, the block deck, requiring the block be decked, and at that point you may as well do a complete overhaul.

Just sayin'...

Be sure to clean the block deck carefully, and to a fare-thee-well, as well as the head. You want those surfaces as clean as possible for the new HG. And they MUST be flat, and free of corrosion or surface disturbance (pitting, etc.), to within spec as delineated in the FSM.

Don't use Scotch-Brite, BTW.

Red_Chili

Oops.
What caused the starvation? Did your cam go first?

83

So I've heard someone say they use a medium stiffness metal brush on their hand drill for gasket removal. Good idea?

And yeah, how do I find out if my valves aren't getting oil?

So......you think #1 & 4 look ok, but 2 & 3 are too clean? I've been told the opposite by someone else..2 & 3 look normal, but if that's oil on #1, maybe valve seals or something.

I'm glad I went with your advice and pulled the head. Gives me a chance to clean a lot of things out, and replace the gasket. I just don't want to keep finding stuff wrong! Better now than when it's all back together again, though..

Red_Chili

Hard to tell from the picture really, but it seems odd that 2&3 are clean on a higher mileage engine. Clean piston tops are a diagnostic for a slight HG leak. In fact, you can pull a plug and scope the piston tops if you have any doubts, and any new-to-you truck should have this done (DAMHIK... ). Most shops have the scope and will do it for you.

#4 does look wet. Hard to tell from what... even coolant when you pulled the head? Web diagnoses are fun...

I wouldn't use the brush. You do NOT want to damage the finish on the block deck in any way. YMMV.

You can get buff pads for a die grinder that are nonabrasive, but I wouldn't even use those personally, or if I did I would be uber uber careful. {edit: checked with my son, a Toyota tech, and he seconded using a die grinder and soft pad. There's your ticket. I just hesitate to turn someone loose with an air powered die grinder who's never done this... so be careful. HG sealing is dependent on a very good surface on the block and the head. To that end, you can even have a machine shop skim .010 off the head without removing the valves, it just depends on the condition of the head. Hope that helps.}

Was your compression good before you tore it down? Did you by chance do a leakdown test? (pretty sure that wasn't done, usually isn't) Can you measure the ridge at the top of the cylinder (need a special tool for that, AFAIK someplace like Auto Zone or Checkers may rent such a tool for free)? If these things are iffy, you may as well pull the motor and freshen it up! You've already removed most of the parts needed to do so. You may need to use a chain or something with the hoist now that the handy dandy motor hooks on the head are of no use to you.

83

No, I won't be using any air powered tools. I don't have them and likely won't be renting them. I've just got a basic wrench set, that's it. So....a gasket scraper? Or what?

Nope, no tests were done before the tear down except that a mechanic said the timing chain was bad.

It's actually set up 4 - 1 left to right in the photo. One's the real wet looking one, but I know some coolant and oil was spilling out when I pulled the head, so that may be all it is. Good thing I pulled the head though!

What's the best way to clean the bottom of the head? Do I need to remove the cam? I'm very hesitant to just flip it over to clean the gasket surface since it's so heavy, at least without removing the cam, but I can't think of any other way to clean it, unless I can bring it to a machine shop the way it is and just have it resurfaced to rule out any warping.

Red_Chili

Call your machine shop, but you should not have to pull the cam. They may feel otherwise. It is really no big deal.

Oh, OK- I should have figured out that was the exhaust manifold on the upper part of the pic.

Without air, I guess I might use Scotchbrite after all. Carefully. On the block. With light oil. You want to be very careful with the head. Do they check out square? Don't take any shortcuts there. (Be sure to clean the oil off completely before reassembly of course).

So far I've not had to clean a head. Skimming .010 off is pretty easy. You want to be extremely careful not to damage the surface. I guess I'd be willing to bet you already have some slight damage and skimming a bit would be advisable anyway. Take it to your machine shop and get them to give it a look.