"Secure" wireless B/G. Recommendations...

Cebby · 07-26-2004, 02:26 PM

I recently got a new laptop that has an integrated "G" card. My iPaq has an integrated "B" card. Both have bluetooth too if that matters. Everything else is wired (two PC's currently, but the whole house is wired).

I am currently using a Linksys router for the wired stuff, but sold off my wireless access point a while back. I have no problem parting with it if it doesn't fit in the mix.

I think I'd prefer a wireless router that includes a few ports that I can add switches to expand wired capacity. What about some sort of firewall?

Some of the newer Netgear stuff looks promising... Any recommendations?

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JoKEpLaYeR · 07-26-2004, 03:05 PM

You can always just add a Wireless Access Point to the router you already have - but prices have come down so far that you might be better off just getting a complete "package" with a new Wireless Router. I love the Linksys stuff! If you want a really good firewall/router/wireless access point check out www.SonicWall.com. They're expensive though.

***midiwall*** · 07-26-2004, 03:32 PM

Linksys rocks and is my first choice in thise stuff. I've had good luck with Netgear as well, but I've been "brand aligned" with Linksys for years.

This is Linksys's classic 4 port 802.11B router with firewall (BEFW11S4); HIGHLY recommended:
http://www.buy.com/prod/Linksys_Wire.../10273558.html

This is the "G" version of that, and with the $10 rebate is a HECK of a deal:
http://www.buy.com/prod/Linksys_WRT5.../10360624.html

Hard to beat the free shipping (and of course, no tax) offer from Buy.com as well.

Cebby · 07-26-2004, 03:33 PM

That looks like great stuff, but is a bit beyond what I want to spend currently. Of the stuff that is inexpensive, is there one clearcut leader in the bang for the buck category?

JoKEpLaYeR · 07-26-2004, 03:34 PM

Go with Linksys.

***midiwall*** · 07-26-2004, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cebby

That looks like great stuff, but is a bit beyond what I want to spend currently. Of the stuff that is inexpensive, is there one clearcut leader in the bang for the buck category?

Are you talking about the SonicWall stuff or Linksys?

At $40 (after rebate) with free shipping the Linksys B router is a loss-leader for them. They must be giving them to buy.com!

I can't think of ANY solution for under $40 Cebby.

4Hummer · 07-26-2004, 05:12 PM

For security. The best way to LOCK DOWN a wireless connection is By MAC Address. In your router setup wizard you can allow access to your LAN By MAC Address (Unique Address given to every NIC Card.. Tpye IPCONFIG /all from the DOS Promtto find out what your MAC Address is). ADD the Wireless Devices you want access too ONLY. Dont bother with WEP. anyone with any "hacking" Background can hack into WEP in under 20 min.

If you dont want your Neighbours or "Drive By Hackers" Getting access to you LAN Lock it down.

rwmorrisonjr · 07-26-2004, 07:35 PM

Cebby, I have one that you can have for free. It's a Netgear WGR614v4 that I've upgraded with the latest firmware. It also has full encryption including the new WPA standard. PM me if you're interested, I'm sure it's within your price range!

rwmorrisonjr · 07-26-2004, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midiwall

At $40 (after rebate) with free shipping the Linksys B router is a loss-leader for them. They must be giving them to buy.com!

Old technology that they're trying to clear from the warehouse. Now they have 108 meg 802.11g so that means that 54 will be coming down in price soon too.

MvCrash · 07-26-2004, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Hummer

For security. The best way to LOCK DOWN a wireless connection is By MAC Address. In your router setup wizard you can allow access to your LAN By MAC Address (Unique Address given to every NIC Card.. Tpye IPCONFIG /all from the DOS Promtto find out what your MAC Address is). ADD the Wireless Devices you want access too ONLY. Dont bother with WEP. anyone with any "hacking" Background can hack into WEP in under 20 min.

If you dont want your Neighbours or "Drive By Hackers" Getting access to you LAN Lock it down.

Greetings,
Well I'm pretty sure that I don't know anyone that can hack WEP in 20 minutes but then I may not have a hacking backround. It would take a good amount of time for someone to be sitting in front of you house collecting data to break a WEP key. There are some serious problems with the WEP encryption software and it is possible for someone with knowledge of Cipher text to break your WEP Keys. I would turn it on since it does encrypt the data and would keep most folks out of your network. There would have to be a substantial reason for somone to take the time to do it. If your interested in reading about the WEP problem, here is a link. Its complicated but readable.
http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/isaac/wep-faq.html

I have a few software proggies that can spoof MAC address without much fuss. If your using MAC address security, and the addresses are not secured (encrypted) it would be easy to sniff your network and come up with the MAC address.
Personally I would use WEP, MAC Address, and not use DHCP. Limit the IP addresses to the amount of computers your using on your network. Also, keep an eye out for folks sitting in front of your house with a laptap and a pringles can aimed at your house. This could be a sign of someone working on your network.

MV

CynicX · 08-02-2004, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cebby

I recently got a new laptop that has an integrated "G" card. My iPaq has an integrated "B" card. Both have bluetooth too if that matters. Everything else is wired (two PC's currently, but the whole house is wired).

I am currently using a Linksys router for the wired stuff, but sold off my wireless access point a while back. I have no problem parting with it if it doesn't fit in the mix.

I think I'd prefer a wireless router that includes a few ports that I can add switches to expand wired capacity. What about some sort of firewall?

Some of the newer Netgear stuff looks promising... Any recommendations?

I recommend Linksys. Only because thats what I have, I initially had some trouble setting it up when I first got it and knew nothing about it, but you wont have a problem. My father has D-Link and doesnt have a problem, although I dont know anything about D-Link I know it was easier on the initial setup then linksys. I recommend enabling WEP @ 64 bit (128 if your paranoid). I dunno anyone that could sit outside and hack into your system without you noticing and is someone really going to do that, do you have anything on your computer that a super hacker is going to drive to your house, hide in your bushes to get onto your computer and find out yotatech password or something?...not very likely....I have the Linksys wireless G which also has 4 switches...I have 1 computer wireless, 1 laptop wireless, 1 computer wired and my xbox wired...all of which work perfectly.....

4Hummer · 08-02-2004, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MvCrash

I have a few software proggies that can spoof MAC address without much fuss.

Personally I would use WEP, MAC Address, and not use DHCP. Limit the IP addresses to the amount of computers your using on your network.

Also, keep an eye out for folks sitting in front of your house with a laptap and a pringles can aimed at your house. This could be a sign of someone working on your network.
MV

Thats Funny, Good one.

Yeah Spoofing MAC's is pretty easy if the can figure out that the MAC address is. there are allot of programs that will let let you see pretty much all network traffic on a wireless connection (Cough "solar winds" Cough).

The above combination would work best. Only allow by MAC address, Enable WEP, limit IP's, and no DHCP. Also PLEASE guys PLEASE change the default user name and password for your router. By default its admin and admin.
.
As for the time it takes to hack into WEP... I've personally seen it done in 20min but I can also take over an 1hour..
.
.

PoBoy · 08-02-2004, 06:25 PM

Bottom line...if you are a home user you should not worry all that much. The chances of some actually TRYING to get in are pretty slim unless you are in a large apartment complex with a bunch of young adults and kids. I honestly wouldnt worry that much about it. Granted it could happen - but what really do you have to lose? Back your stuff up regularly as you should do anyway and save yourself the money. A $90 wireless linksys rotuer should have plenty of protection for your needs. Where there is a will there is a way when it comes to technology. The only SAFE computer is one unplugged and burried 30 feet underground in a block of cement...but I hear "worms" can sitll infect that deep (yes that is a corny computer geek joke). Do what you can...but realize that someone has to WANT to get in in teh first place. Then look at what you have to give them...anything good? Probably not other than internet access, email addresses, and some serial numbers.

Cebby · 08-03-2004, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwmorrisonjr

Cebby, I have one that you can have for free. It's a Netgear WGR614v4 that I've upgraded with the latest firmware. It also has full encryption including the new WPA standard. PM me if you're interested, I'm sure it's within your price range!

Thank for the offer! I did some research and found the newer ones have a bit better range which I need.

Can I add an unmanaged switch to the WGT634U? I need a few more ports...

data · 08-03-2004, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MvCrash

Greetings,
Well I'm pretty sure that I don't know anyone that can hack WEP in 20 minutes but then I may not have a hacking backround. It would take a good amount of time for someone to be sitting in front of you house collecting data to break a WEP key. There are some serious problems with the WEP encryption software and it is possible for someone with knowledge of Cipher text to break your WEP Keys. I would turn it on since it does encrypt the data and would keep most folks out of your network. There would have to be a substantial reason for somone to take the time to do it. If your interested in reading about the WEP problem, here is a link. Its complicated but readable.
http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/isaac/wep-faq.html

I have a few software proggies that can spoof MAC address without much fuss. If your using MAC address security, and the addresses are not secured (encrypted) it would be easy to sniff your network and come up with the MAC address.
Personally I would use WEP, MAC Address, and not use DHCP. Limit the IP addresses to the amount of computers your using on your network. Also, keep an eye out for folks sitting in front of your house with a laptap and a pringles can aimed at your house. This could be a sign of someone working on your network.

MV

Well said! Lock it down as much as possible and you shouldn't have a problem.

MvCrash · 08-03-2004, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by data

Well said! Lock it down as much as possible and you shouldn't have a problem.

Thanks for the compliment, snort snort......air snort!!!!!

MV
127.0.0.1

jht3 · 08-06-2004, 07:13 AM

if you feel like waiting, the 802.11i is in the works and will be the most secure version yet

and as for cracking WEP keys in 20min to an hour, i call BS. you have to transfer a serious amount of packets to collect enough interesting ones to crack a 40-bit key, let alone a 104-bit key. i've done it but i was flooding my network with packets.

remember the old adage: you don't have to be able to outrun the bear, you just have to be able to outrun the guy next to you.

lockdown your AP more than your neighbor and most people will leave you alone.

Cebby · 08-06-2004, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cebby

Can I add an unmanaged switch to the WGT634U? I need a few more ports...

Anyone?

4Hummer · 08-06-2004, 05:56 PM

You should be able to add a switch no problem. even a 2nd access point.

Air Snort. There's another very popular wireless program. Go way to get basic infromation from wireless LANs. A descent "script kiddie" program. Not really a true hacking program. But excellent for the NooB

ldivinag · 08-06-2004, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cebby

Anyone?

yes, the switch should be a no brainer.

in fact, for something even cheaper, get a hub...

since the AP is a switch to begin with, it's no big deal if the traffic from one port on the hub goes up one level to the AP, instead of staying within the unmanaged switch.

in such a small environment where:

internet -> AP/switch -> hub -> multiple machines

the hub is almost zero performance hit

now,

internet -> gateway -> managed switches -> routers -> FDDI link -> switches -> routers -> hub -> my work machine and 200 hundred other machines off the same hub

and i need to get files off a server from a diff subnet from the first managed switch, then yeah... the hub sucks...

amusement · 08-06-2004, 09:03 PM

200 machines on the same hub ... what does spanning tree look like? Sounds like a performance hit.

Perfer switches because of their ability to isolate "verbose" data link clients on the network. Bridges are cool if you want to use a network analyzer like ethereal.

ldivinag · 08-06-2004, 09:07 PM

sheeeet... the worse part is our file servers is on the same hub, if you can believe that...

our part of the building was the first to get network and in typical government thinking, we got left out. plus they keep telling us, "wait for your new building..."

GRRRRRRRRR

MvCrash · 08-07-2004, 05:36 AM

Greetings,
Switches and hubs are quite different. Even if the switch is unmanaged it is much better than a hub. Hubs share bandwidth ie: 10 ports, 10 machines, 100 mb = each machine gets to use 10mb if they are all operational. Switch is much different. 10 ports, 10 machines, 100 mb = all machines operate at 100 mb.
I would NOT use a hub. Switches are so cheap today, why buy a hub. Also, a good managed switch will allow some security depending on the firmware.

My 2 cents.

MV
127.0.0.1

MvCrash · 08-07-2004, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ldivinag

internet -> gateway -> managed switches -> routers -> FDDI link -> switches -> routers -> hub -> my work machine and 200 hundred other machines off the same hub

...

You need a new network dude......dude!!!

200 machines even on a 100 mb hub is LOW, very LOW bandwidth.....TOO low to be worth it.

MV

MTL_4runner · 08-07-2004, 06:21 AM

I just got a D-Link Di-524 wireless setup and it works very nice for a SOHO.
I can believe I went without wireless for as long as I did!

I will say that for a wireless noob like me it was very easy to set up with my new laptop.

07-26-2004, 03:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
JoKEpLaYeR Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Pleasant Hill, CA Posts: 879	You can always just add a Wireless Access Point to the router you already have - but prices have come down so far that you might be better off just getting a complete "package" with a new Wireless Router. I love the Linksys stuff! If you want a really good firewall/router/wireless access point check out www.SonicWall.com. They're expensive though. __________________ Steve/KG6ZJL <>< 1982 Camaro Z28 and 1988 4Runner... they're giving my wallet anxiety issues. 'Locking the hubs and airing down... there is no better way to start a weekend!' - Me www.SteveArnett.com

07-26-2004, 03:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
*midiwall* Sponsoring Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Seattleish, WA Posts: 9,078	Linksys rocks and is my first choice in thise stuff. I've had good luck with Netgear as well, but I've been "brand aligned" with Linksys for years. This is Linksys's classic 4 port 802.11B router with firewall (BEFW11S4); HIGHLY recommended: http://www.buy.com/prod/Linksys_Wire.../10273558.html This is the "G" version of that, and with the $10 rebate is a HECK of a deal: http://www.buy.com/prod/Linksys_WRT5.../10360624.html Hard to beat the free shipping (and of course, no tax) offer from Buy.com as well. __________________ ~ Mark '96 4Runner Limited S/C MI - 370cc injectors, Air! horns, Airaid MIT, ATS A-arms, 285/75/R16 BFG MTs, Bored TB, Brembo slotted, Cobra 75 WXST, Deckplate, Downey headers, Hayden cooler, IPT valve body, Level 10 torque convertor, Meanstreak exhaust, OME/OME rears, On-board PC (XM, Nav, WiFi, etc), Port 'n Polish, Remote Start, SAW fronts, Hilux console, SMT-5, Stubb's sliders, Supra MAF, TJM-17, 2.0" pulley, Viair 450c, Walbro 190, Weasy2k cams

07-26-2004, 03:33 PM	#4 (permalink)
Cebby Contributing Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 11,246	That looks like great stuff, but is a bit beyond what I want to spend currently. Of the stuff that is inexpensive, is there one clearcut leader in the bang for the buck category? __________________ UZswap.com A site dedicated to sharing info for swapping the Toyota/ Lexus UZ (V8) engines into Toyota Trucks and 4Runners. My 4Runner 1993 4Runner, 1UZ (V8) auto dual ultimate crawler, double locked, 35's on beadlocked SR5 alloys, low lift, hacked fenders, tubbed firewall, custom armor TOOLandFAB.com A discussion forum dedicated to tools, fabrication & workshops. See my JD2 Bender Hydro Conversion BUY THIS 2008 CALENDAR

07-26-2004, 03:34 PM	#5 (permalink)
JoKEpLaYeR Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Pleasant Hill, CA Posts: 879	Go with Linksys. __________________ Steve/KG6ZJL <>< 1982 Camaro Z28 and 1988 4Runner... they're giving my wallet anxiety issues. 'Locking the hubs and airing down... there is no better way to start a weekend!' - Me www.SteveArnett.com

07-26-2004, 05:12 PM	#7 (permalink)
4Hummer Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,975	For security. The best way to LOCK DOWN a wireless connection is By MAC Address. In your router setup wizard you can allow access to your LAN By MAC Address (Unique Address given to every NIC Card.. Tpye IPCONFIG /all from the DOS Promtto find out what your MAC Address is). ADD the Wireless Devices you want access too ONLY. Dont bother with WEP. anyone with any "hacking" Background can hack into WEP in under 20 min. If you dont want your Neighbours or "Drive By Hackers" Getting access to you LAN Lock it down. __________________ Michael 1991 4Runner 22RE. CHOP www.obsessiveoffroadclub.com

07-26-2004, 07:35 PM	#8 (permalink)
rwmorrisonjr Contributing Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Home: Aurora, CO; Work: The People's Republic of Denver Posts: 1,992	Cebby, I have one that you can have for free. It's a Netgear WGR614v4 that I've upgraded with the latest firmware. It also has full encryption including the new WPA standard. PM me if you're interested, I'm sure it's within your price range! __________________ DD: 2006 Jeep Commander Sport 4.7l Trail rig: 1984 BII, 2.8, MSD 6A & Blaster 2 coil, Holley 2300, C5, OEM 1350, 7.5 & D28 with 4.56s, 33x12.50 BFG AT KOs on 15x8 black steelies, new "jeep" seats. Ugly but it runs and its paid for! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."- Robert A. Heinlein

08-02-2004, 06:25 PM	#13 (permalink)
PoBoy Contributing Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 2,000	Bottom line...if you are a home user you should not worry all that much. The chances of some actually TRYING to get in are pretty slim unless you are in a large apartment complex with a bunch of young adults and kids. I honestly wouldnt worry that much about it. Granted it could happen - but what really do you have to lose? Back your stuff up regularly as you should do anyway and save yourself the money. A $90 wireless linksys rotuer should have plenty of protection for your needs. Where there is a will there is a way when it comes to technology. The only SAFE computer is one unplugged and burried 30 feet underground in a block of cement...but I hear "worms" can sitll infect that deep (yes that is a corny computer geek joke). Do what you can...but realize that someone has to WANT to get in in teh first place. Then look at what you have to give them...anything good? Probably not other than internet access, email addresses, and some serial numbers. __________________ So I sold my '96 4Runner to get married...I was sad. BUT NOT ANY MORE! Check out my 1985 4Runner with 32,xxx miles! PoBoyTech.Net Last edited by PoBoy; 08-02-2004 at 06:27 PM.

08-06-2004, 07:13 AM	#17 (permalink)
jht3 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 125	if you feel like waiting, the 802.11i is in the works and will be the most secure version yet and as for cracking WEP keys in 20min to an hour, i call BS. you have to transfer a serious amount of packets to collect enough interesting ones to crack a 40-bit key, let alone a 104-bit key. i've done it but i was flooding my network with packets. remember the old adage: you don't have to be able to outrun the bear, you just have to be able to outrun the guy next to you. lockdown your AP more than your neighbor and most people will leave you alone. Last edited by jht3; 08-06-2004 at 07:19 AM.

08-06-2004, 05:56 PM	#19 (permalink)
4Hummer Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,975	You should be able to add a switch no problem. even a 2nd access point. Air Snort. There's another very popular wireless program. Go way to get basic infromation from wireless LANs. A descent "script kiddie" program. Not really a true hacking program. But excellent for the NooB __________________ Michael 1991 4Runner 22RE. CHOP www.obsessiveoffroadclub.com

08-06-2004, 09:03 PM	#21 (permalink)
amusement Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 1,509	200 machines on the same hub ... what does spanning tree look like? Sounds like a performance hit. Perfer switches because of their ability to isolate "verbose" data link clients on the network. Bridges are cool if you want to use a network analyzer like ethereal.

08-06-2004, 09:07 PM	#22 (permalink)
ldivinag Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: N37 39* W122 3* Posts: 1,428	sheeeet... the worse part is our file servers is on the same hub, if you can believe that... our part of the building was the first to get network and in typical government thinking, we got left out. plus they keep telling us, "wait for your new building..." GRRRRRRRRR __________________ leo d. stock 90 4runner

08-07-2004, 05:36 AM	#23 (permalink)
MvCrash Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Northern NJ Posts: 342	Greetings, Switches and hubs are quite different. Even if the switch is unmanaged it is much better than a hub. Hubs share bandwidth ie: 10 ports, 10 machines, 100 mb = each machine gets to use 10mb if they are all operational. Switch is much different. 10 ports, 10 machines, 100 mb = all machines operate at 100 mb. I would NOT use a hub. Switches are so cheap today, why buy a hub. Also, a good managed switch will allow some security depending on the firmware. My 2 cents. MV 127.0.0.1

08-07-2004, 06:21 AM	#25 (permalink)
MTL_4runner Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 8,807	I just got a D-Link Di-524 wireless setup and it works very nice for a SOHO. I can believe I went without wireless for as long as I did! I will say that for a wireless noob like me it was very easy to set up with my new laptop. __________________ - Jamie 1996 4Runner SR5 4X4 Auto Deckplate Mod, Hayden Tranny Cooler, Amsoil Air Filter, OME 881/906 N86C/N91SC Lift Best OBD II scan tool I have used!. .....and I am AMERICAN!

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