3RD GEN : Ander Engineering Rear Bumper Build Thread...
10-16-2005, 05:44 AM
#22
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Originally Posted by dragr1
Subscribing, carry on Andy and ignore some people. 
If you don't like it, it's easy to get rid of.
10-16-2005, 06:00 AM
#23
Originally Posted by sschaefer3
If you don't like it, it's easy to get rid of.
It is a butt boat anchor.
But Andy will have fun regardless.
10-16-2005, 07:45 AM
#24
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Ok I'll even help you out here. These are the side effects of a 3rd Gen Tire carrier that you will need to over come.
1. Pulsing vibration on the road. The frame and body will start flexing/pulsing due to the added leverage. You will get a thump thump thump, that will go away if you change your speed slower and then speed back up again. This only happens on paved roads.
2. Off road the truck will be unbalanced, when on a steep hill climb the front will literally unload and the vehicle will thrash from side to side, even with a front ARB.
3. Limited visibility out the back window. Yeah you can learn to live with it, but it is irritating.
4. You will no longer be able to use 2" receiver hitch accessories as the tire will be in the way.
5. You will need a good and preferably a self latching swing gate holder to hold the gate open at 90 degrees. Lets say you pull over on the side of the road. You don't want you gate swinging out into oncoming traffic or even better yet swinging into you and knocking you on your pooper.
6. Clean license plate install. I feel this is where most if not all tire carriers fail miserably. As for the plate it looks like some 10 second add on when the bumper was done. I'll sell you my FJ-40 one for $150.00 and if you think that is not a deal, you have no clue what 40 parts go for. A clean plate install is your challenge.
7. Excess fatigue on the two rear body mounts. A carrier for one year, trashed mine. Someday I have to swap them out for the set I got off of the jig frame section. The stock mounts will need to be replaced with some sort of non-give poly, which will help the thump thump thump as well.
8. On a steep departure up a very steep hill or obstacle you will drag the tire. Not the bumper, but the tire.
9. Dropping off ledges you will catch the tire, not the bumper but the tire. Steve Hunt had to raise his up real high to avoid this and Pat Murphy out here in AZ actually ripped his tire off by dropping down on a ledge and hitting the tire. It’s cool when you have tire tread on a ledge and your two rear tires hanging in the air.
10. Buy the Japanese Domestic Market Carrier, it will work.
I am not being a prick, I am helping you. All of these issues will need to be address for you to have success. Discredit me and in the end, you will be sorry. Also this is ONLY 3rd Gen stuff, the 2nd Gen is NOT the same vehicle in any shape or form what so ever, a tire carrier on a 2nd Gen will be far more successful than on a 3rd Gen.
See why I won't build a tire carrier bumper, it's an unreal amount of work for this truck.
1. Pulsing vibration on the road. The frame and body will start flexing/pulsing due to the added leverage. You will get a thump thump thump, that will go away if you change your speed slower and then speed back up again. This only happens on paved roads.
2. Off road the truck will be unbalanced, when on a steep hill climb the front will literally unload and the vehicle will thrash from side to side, even with a front ARB.
3. Limited visibility out the back window. Yeah you can learn to live with it, but it is irritating.
4. You will no longer be able to use 2" receiver hitch accessories as the tire will be in the way.
5. You will need a good and preferably a self latching swing gate holder to hold the gate open at 90 degrees. Lets say you pull over on the side of the road. You don't want you gate swinging out into oncoming traffic or even better yet swinging into you and knocking you on your pooper.
6. Clean license plate install. I feel this is where most if not all tire carriers fail miserably. As for the plate it looks like some 10 second add on when the bumper was done. I'll sell you my FJ-40 one for $150.00 and if you think that is not a deal, you have no clue what 40 parts go for. A clean plate install is your challenge.
7. Excess fatigue on the two rear body mounts. A carrier for one year, trashed mine. Someday I have to swap them out for the set I got off of the jig frame section. The stock mounts will need to be replaced with some sort of non-give poly, which will help the thump thump thump as well.
8. On a steep departure up a very steep hill or obstacle you will drag the tire. Not the bumper, but the tire.
9. Dropping off ledges you will catch the tire, not the bumper but the tire. Steve Hunt had to raise his up real high to avoid this and Pat Murphy out here in AZ actually ripped his tire off by dropping down on a ledge and hitting the tire. It’s cool when you have tire tread on a ledge and your two rear tires hanging in the air.
10. Buy the Japanese Domestic Market Carrier, it will work.
I am not being a prick, I am helping you. All of these issues will need to be address for you to have success. Discredit me and in the end, you will be sorry. Also this is ONLY 3rd Gen stuff, the 2nd Gen is NOT the same vehicle in any shape or form what so ever, a tire carrier on a 2nd Gen will be far more successful than on a 3rd Gen.
See why I won't build a tire carrier bumper, it's an unreal amount of work for this truck.
Last edited by sschaefer3; 10-16-2005 at 07:48 AM. Reason: Add 2nd Gen Disclaimer
10-16-2005, 05:52 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by dragr1
Steve, I've tried to find one of the factory 3rd gen body mount tire carriers and have never had any luck.
10-16-2005, 08:30 PM
#28
Registered User
I am a prick.
Carriers suck big balls. I destroyed mine in Moab last year and have never looked back. Well I guess I do and finally I can see out the back window.
If you are going to do it, copy the Slee Off Road rear bumper hinge, latch and hold opens. They work well.
My truck flat out performs better without a bunch of weight hanging back there, night and day difference.
They make it look like a rock truck, but it is probably better if people just know and don't have to look.
Carriers suck big balls. I destroyed mine in Moab last year and have never looked back. Well I guess I do and finally I can see out the back window.
If you are going to do it, copy the Slee Off Road rear bumper hinge, latch and hold opens. They work well.
My truck flat out performs better without a bunch of weight hanging back there, night and day difference.
They make it look like a rock truck, but it is probably better if people just know and don't have to look.
10-16-2005, 08:32 PM
#29
Registered User
And another thing.
Last time I was in Arizona we had a pic at the parts store. It was my truck, Steve's truck, Casey's truck and Jeff's truck. No one had carriers though Jeff, Casey and I all used to have them on the bumpers that were on the trucks and Steve built a new bumper that did not include it.
I know we are all dedicated web wheelers, but I just thought I would put that out there.
With a spare, as long as it is on the rig when it is time to change, no worries.
With a Hi-Lift, I sure like to have them close at hand so there isn't much monkey business.
Last time I was in Arizona we had a pic at the parts store. It was my truck, Steve's truck, Casey's truck and Jeff's truck. No one had carriers though Jeff, Casey and I all used to have them on the bumpers that were on the trucks and Steve built a new bumper that did not include it.
I know we are all dedicated web wheelers, but I just thought I would put that out there.
With a spare, as long as it is on the rig when it is time to change, no worries.
With a Hi-Lift, I sure like to have them close at hand so there isn't much monkey business.
10-17-2005, 04:18 AM
#30
cheese and homoburrito:
thanks for the input and the constructive criticism. i appreciate all the info you can give. i truly listen to what you tell me and i give your comments/suggestions a lot more consideration than most.
even though i realize that you're just trying to keep me from going down the same path that other's have taken, and making the same mistakes, you should also realize that i do a lot of digging before doing anything and i also like to approach things in my own way. (i.e. frankenstruts vs. tundra coils) frankenstruts were the schitt, but i wanted something better and i eventually found it.
as far as the issues go:
1. Pulsing vibration on the road. The frame and body will start flexing/pulsing due to the added leverage. You will get a thump thump thump, that will go away if you change your speed slower and then speed back up again. This only happens on paved roads. OK, you have my attention. Obviously some resonance vibration that is magnified by the lever arm attached at the pivot point. I'll have to attack that one after it appears since I'll need to see where it's coming from. Thanks for the heads-up so it's not a surprise.
2. Off road the truck will be unbalanced, when on a steep hill climb the front will literally unload and the vehicle will thrash from side to side, even with a front ARB. I'm not doubting you, but the tire/wheel is about 80# or so. I already have it in the spare location under the rig. It's center of gravity will move about 20" rearward and about 24" upward. I have a hard time understanding why on a rig that weighs 4000#, an 80# tire moving that little can throw the balance off considerably. Not saying that you don't know what you're talking about or what you feel or observe, but looking at it from a numbers standpoint, it's hard to figure that one out. Again, thanks for the head's up.
3. Limited visibility out the back window. Yeah you can learn to live with it, but it is irritating. This one doesn't bother me at all. Usually when we go on road-trips in the runner, I have all my wife's crap stacked so high in the back that I can't see out anyway. I'm used to it!
4. You will no longer be able to use 2" receiver hitch accessories as the tire will be in the way. By accessories, I'm assuming stuff like bike racks, baskets, etc... I only have a basket, and rarely use it now anyway. Thanks for the tip on this one.
5. You will need a good and preferably a self latching swing gate holder to hold the gate open at 90 degrees. Lets say you pull over on the side of the road. You don't want you gate swinging out into oncoming traffic or even better yet swinging into you and knocking you on your pooper. I will be copying Slee's design on the hold-open and will be using their latch and spindle. I believe you when you give me advise. 100% Slee on the important stuff. No cutting corners there.
6. Clean license plate install. I feel this is where most if not all tire carriers fail miserably. As for the plate it looks like some 10 second add on when the bumper was done. I'll sell you my FJ-40 one for $150.00 and if you think that is not a deal, you have no clue what 40 parts go for. A clean plate install is your challenge. This is actually something that I've been looking at as my #3 challenge. #1 is getting a good bumper design that flows w/ the lines of the rig and is STRONG at the same time. #2 is what to do about the carrier. #3 is a nice looking license plate mount - seriouly. I was thinking of using a 40-series mount anyway. I just might take that one off your hands if the carrier ends up staying... I'll be in touch.
7. Excess fatigue on the two rear body mounts. A carrier for one year, trashed mine. Someday I have to swap them out for the set I got off of the jig frame section. The stock mounts will need to be replaced with some sort of non-give poly, which will help the thump thump thump as well. Already thought about this. I'm going to use some 3" diameter HDPE to spread out the load on the body and then use some custom poly bushings at the bolts to get a nice and tight fit back there. I think those crappy bushings and the loose fit is what allows so much flex in the first place. I am also thinking of adding some crossbracing on the frame above where the spare sits now. I think that would stiffen up the rear section considerably.
8. On a steep departure up a very steep hill or obstacle you will drag the tire. Not the bumper, but the tire. Yeah, I've noticed that with about any carrier on any vehicle. I want to get a good balance of getting it high w/o having it too high. There's a magic number there somewhere - hopefully I'll find it.
9. Dropping off ledges you will catch the tire, not the bumper but the tire. Steve Hunt had to raise his up real high to avoid this and Pat Murphy out here in AZ actually ripped his tire off by dropping down on a ledge and hitting the tire. It’s cool when you have tire tread on a ledge and your two rear tires hanging in the air.
Hmmmm. Yeah, that would suck. Maybe hang the tire at a slight angle and then have a small skid under the tread so when it does drop on it, it would be more likely to slide off than to grip rubber. I'll keep that in mind...
10. Buy the Japanese Domestic Market Carrier, it will work. I've been looking, and I can build a carrier with slee hardware for cheaper than I can get my hands on an OEM carrier, and that's with me fabbing up the inner supports on the body panel and also the latch system to the rear hatch. I can't latch it to the bumper and pivot from the body since they aren't one-in-the-same and will flex differently.
thanks for the input and the constructive criticism. i appreciate all the info you can give. i truly listen to what you tell me and i give your comments/suggestions a lot more consideration than most.
even though i realize that you're just trying to keep me from going down the same path that other's have taken, and making the same mistakes, you should also realize that i do a lot of digging before doing anything and i also like to approach things in my own way. (i.e. frankenstruts vs. tundra coils) frankenstruts were the schitt, but i wanted something better and i eventually found it.
as far as the issues go:
1. Pulsing vibration on the road. The frame and body will start flexing/pulsing due to the added leverage. You will get a thump thump thump, that will go away if you change your speed slower and then speed back up again. This only happens on paved roads. OK, you have my attention. Obviously some resonance vibration that is magnified by the lever arm attached at the pivot point. I'll have to attack that one after it appears since I'll need to see where it's coming from. Thanks for the heads-up so it's not a surprise.
2. Off road the truck will be unbalanced, when on a steep hill climb the front will literally unload and the vehicle will thrash from side to side, even with a front ARB. I'm not doubting you, but the tire/wheel is about 80# or so. I already have it in the spare location under the rig. It's center of gravity will move about 20" rearward and about 24" upward. I have a hard time understanding why on a rig that weighs 4000#, an 80# tire moving that little can throw the balance off considerably. Not saying that you don't know what you're talking about or what you feel or observe, but looking at it from a numbers standpoint, it's hard to figure that one out. Again, thanks for the head's up.
3. Limited visibility out the back window. Yeah you can learn to live with it, but it is irritating. This one doesn't bother me at all. Usually when we go on road-trips in the runner, I have all my wife's crap stacked so high in the back that I can't see out anyway. I'm used to it!
4. You will no longer be able to use 2" receiver hitch accessories as the tire will be in the way. By accessories, I'm assuming stuff like bike racks, baskets, etc... I only have a basket, and rarely use it now anyway. Thanks for the tip on this one.
5. You will need a good and preferably a self latching swing gate holder to hold the gate open at 90 degrees. Lets say you pull over on the side of the road. You don't want you gate swinging out into oncoming traffic or even better yet swinging into you and knocking you on your pooper. I will be copying Slee's design on the hold-open and will be using their latch and spindle. I believe you when you give me advise. 100% Slee on the important stuff. No cutting corners there.
6. Clean license plate install. I feel this is where most if not all tire carriers fail miserably. As for the plate it looks like some 10 second add on when the bumper was done. I'll sell you my FJ-40 one for $150.00 and if you think that is not a deal, you have no clue what 40 parts go for. A clean plate install is your challenge. This is actually something that I've been looking at as my #3 challenge. #1 is getting a good bumper design that flows w/ the lines of the rig and is STRONG at the same time. #2 is what to do about the carrier. #3 is a nice looking license plate mount - seriouly. I was thinking of using a 40-series mount anyway. I just might take that one off your hands if the carrier ends up staying... I'll be in touch.
7. Excess fatigue on the two rear body mounts. A carrier for one year, trashed mine. Someday I have to swap them out for the set I got off of the jig frame section. The stock mounts will need to be replaced with some sort of non-give poly, which will help the thump thump thump as well. Already thought about this. I'm going to use some 3" diameter HDPE to spread out the load on the body and then use some custom poly bushings at the bolts to get a nice and tight fit back there. I think those crappy bushings and the loose fit is what allows so much flex in the first place. I am also thinking of adding some crossbracing on the frame above where the spare sits now. I think that would stiffen up the rear section considerably.
8. On a steep departure up a very steep hill or obstacle you will drag the tire. Not the bumper, but the tire. Yeah, I've noticed that with about any carrier on any vehicle. I want to get a good balance of getting it high w/o having it too high. There's a magic number there somewhere - hopefully I'll find it.
9. Dropping off ledges you will catch the tire, not the bumper but the tire. Steve Hunt had to raise his up real high to avoid this and Pat Murphy out here in AZ actually ripped his tire off by dropping down on a ledge and hitting the tire. It’s cool when you have tire tread on a ledge and your two rear tires hanging in the air.
Hmmmm. Yeah, that would suck. Maybe hang the tire at a slight angle and then have a small skid under the tread so when it does drop on it, it would be more likely to slide off than to grip rubber. I'll keep that in mind...10. Buy the Japanese Domestic Market Carrier, it will work. I've been looking, and I can build a carrier with slee hardware for cheaper than I can get my hands on an OEM carrier, and that's with me fabbing up the inner supports on the body panel and also the latch system to the rear hatch. I can't latch it to the bumper and pivot from the body since they aren't one-in-the-same and will flex differently.
10-17-2005, 04:35 AM
#31
Originally Posted by waskillywabbit
Yep. I just sold mine and the bumper comes off this week.
It is a butt boat anchor.
But Andy will have fun regardless.
It is a butt boat anchor.
But Andy will have fun regardless.
bob it and you'll be happy.
10-17-2005, 04:39 PM
#33
Steel: The first place I called was this big steel supplier that my company buys from. They wanted just over $400 for the steel since they wouldn't cut a sheet (48"x96" minimum size) and just the main beam was nearly $100 from them. I called around and found a small Mom & Pop welder / fabricator / supply store and they treated me fair...
Here's what I've got so far:
3.5"x3.5"x3/16" square tubing 72" long - main beam
2"x2"x3/16" square tubing 96" long - carrier frame
1.5"x1.5"x3/16" angle 72" long - bottom rock rail
24"x26"x3/16" plate - frame mounting brackets
28"x48"x1/8" plate - side plate (didn't have enough 3/16" plate)
32"x12"x16ga plate - top finish plate on sides
misc drop steel including some 2"x4" triangular gussets and some 3/16" plate & solid bar for other stuff.
slee spindle is ordered and shipped today
hitch receiver and safety chain loop is ordered and shipped today
later, i'll order the latch and hold-open pin...
Here's what I've got so far:
3.5"x3.5"x3/16" square tubing 72" long - main beam
2"x2"x3/16" square tubing 96" long - carrier frame
1.5"x1.5"x3/16" angle 72" long - bottom rock rail
24"x26"x3/16" plate - frame mounting brackets
28"x48"x1/8" plate - side plate (didn't have enough 3/16" plate)
32"x12"x16ga plate - top finish plate on sides
misc drop steel including some 2"x4" triangular gussets and some 3/16" plate & solid bar for other stuff.
slee spindle is ordered and shipped today
hitch receiver and safety chain loop is ordered and shipped today
later, i'll order the latch and hold-open pin...
Last edited by bamachem; 10-20-2005 at 04:19 AM.
10-18-2005, 04:40 PM
#39
oh for sure.
that's just the main outer skin. it will get brackets like bruce uses and then i'll add some bracing from the wings to the frame and also from the wings and the corners up to the underside of the floor of the cargo area w/ some load distribution plates.
that way, if it get's smacked and wants to move up, the plate will contact the body under the cargo area and impact a large, fairly strong, and hidden area rather than hit the outer body panels.
i'm working on designing the correct placement and bracing of the carrier next.
i'm doing this in CAD first to cover all my bases and get the basic design down before i cut any steel. i'll use the DWG's as a guide to build the bumper - almost like following a set of plans, but not as detailed as actual fab-shop drawings.
that's just the main outer skin. it will get brackets like bruce uses and then i'll add some bracing from the wings to the frame and also from the wings and the corners up to the underside of the floor of the cargo area w/ some load distribution plates.
that way, if it get's smacked and wants to move up, the plate will contact the body under the cargo area and impact a large, fairly strong, and hidden area rather than hit the outer body panels.
i'm working on designing the correct placement and bracing of the carrier next.
i'm doing this in CAD first to cover all my bases and get the basic design down before i cut any steel. i'll use the DWG's as a guide to build the bumper - almost like following a set of plans, but not as detailed as actual fab-shop drawings.
Last edited by bamachem; 10-18-2005 at 04:41 PM.
10-18-2005, 05:29 PM
#40
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That all sounds great. I just chose a design and built it. That is OK, but you will get a much better product your way. PLus, you will refine it pre-build so the end result will look real professional and finished (like the Sahra bar)
