AxleIke

Flygtenstein, you have an awsome rig! May i ask what exactly do you have on there, since you seem to be an advocate of not screwing around with the IFS? Obviously you do very well on hard trails w/out any super expensive mods.

I am interested in doing the best for my truck, without spending super large amounts of money, if i can help it. I am definetly interested in your mods.

NCSU-4runner

you will never be able to overcome the fact that when you compress an independant suspension you are losing ground clearance. If you want to do basic stuff that isnt a problem but it can be a dramatic limitation in severe conditions. It always comes back to what are your goals and whats your budget. i dont think spending money on upgrading IFS is worth the time or money. just my 0.02

DaveKerwin

TWO GRAND FOR A LIFT!?? AND YOU STILL HAVE IFS??

I have less than 1500 in my WHOLE truck. It will outwheel your IFS lifted truck any day. My 20 year old negative arch leafs and 20 year old shocks flex just fine.

Robinhood150

Others can answer that question better than I can since I don't have one. But being a member of a "hardcore" off club (see sig line) I have seen what they can do.

Robinhood150

Not out in the high speed desert/dunes where it sounds like deathrunner is using his truck. Since this isn't a hardcore rockcrawling board like pirate, he makes good points and has a valid need for his modifications.

DaveKerwin

He didn't say anything in this thread about running sand races.

To me, lifting your IFS is only a band-aid for the eventual SAS. You can do a SAS for way less than half of the price of the lift linked in this thread. Thats less than half the price with double the performance. So why would anyone EVER prefer an IFS lift over a SAS? My solid axle runs 80 on the highway just fine. Was running it for 45 minues on the highway just this morning. Do you IFS guys like taking turns at 40 miles an hour or something? I guess I just don't see the point of not swapping a solid axle. Obviously if you don't have the ability to do it, that at least make sense. Even still, a fabricator can do the swap for less than two grand any day of the week. I just see IFS lifts as a waste of money on a first gen toyota. Lots of money for no big return (well, unless you do competition races in the desert).

Flygtenstein

Out wheel what? Let's turn this into a who has the larger phallus thread.

Thanks for the respect on the truck. Gears, lockers and protection make the difference wheeling, not just have a solid axle.

Solid axles are not a cure all. I have IFS, a little bit of tires, a little bit of lift, a couple lockers and good faith in competent spotters. If you 85 is stock, I will see you as I crawl by slowly while 2 of your wheels spin.

I will go start a "My Truck" thread.

Robinhood150

Go back and read his post again, Deathrunner says it right here:
That's high speed stuff.

I know exactly the route I want to take my truck and it does not involve any ifs lift. I'm going to go straight to SAS, but not at this point. I too, think ifs lifts are a waste of money for rockcrawling, but I think solid axles are over hyped. Everybody falls into the trap of, "I need a solid axle to be hardcore," but in reality they have no skills and never learned what their ifs can do. As a result, they are bad drivers and don't even know it.

But don't worry, someday I'll be "hardcore" with solid axles, a crawler, roll cage, etc. In the mean time, I'm going to learn how to wheel.

AxleIke

I have to say i agree with Robinhood. I have seen many people out wheeling who have no idea what they are doing but have alot of mods. They get stuck and in trouble, and even though they may have been doing something stupid, you still gotta help em, trail ettiqute. I have seen a COMPLETELY stock 2nd gen in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, and they performed very well. SA or IFS, if you don't know what the hell you are doing out there, your mods are still only going to get you as far as your driving skill will let you go.

I personally am not going to lift the front of my truck for a while, because i don't even have lockers yet. Right now i am saving for marlin crawler gears, since they seem to be pretty decent. I have lifted the back about 2 inches becasue i had a bad case of rear end sag, and was always dragging my bumper.

DaveKerwin

thats not it at all. the reason stated to keep IFS is for flex, well, an IFS truck has no more flex than my stock 85. That was the argument.

You would crawl by me because I`m open. I am not gonna weld mine while its still my DD. I just can't imagine spending 2000 bucks for a front end lift. I spent less than half that on my whole rig. I just see new guys to the sport, and they think they gotta put a fortune into their rig. That is not true! You can spend MUCH less and get MORE performance.

DaveKerwin

AxleIke started the thread, not deathrunner. Ike didn't say that he jumps his truck.

You don't need a SA to be hardcore, nor do you need a 2000 front end lift. A solid front makes sense, its not a poser thing.

I very much agree with you about the driver's experience issue. You can get a normal IFS lift for only a few hundred, not a few thousand. I need more time behind the wheel in my toyota too. But I am not gonna throw my money away either.

Ike, just trying to save ya a buck man. Go with a low end IFS lift or just save for a solid axle.

deathrunner

Just to mention it....Some of the Best rockcrawlers are IFS. Look at the scorpion's or tube monsters that do rockcrawling. Alot of them are Front and rear IFS with Coil overs all around. It is clearly a more advaced system. (Not necessarily better, but still valid)

Yes it is expensive, but I believe(from what I have seen) That a well built IFS can handle and possibly exceed some of the things an SA can accomplish.

I use my truck in the sand dunes, as well as through your standard trails.
For those of you not familiar with California's deserts...Glamis is greatly loose sand with large dunes, Ocotillo is considered "hard pack" The ground is much firmer and provided places to flex out as well as what I would call high speed trails.

I forgot who mentioned it, but the idea of losing ground clearance when suspension is fully compressed was brought up. I can't imagine a time when you would fully compress both sides of your front suspension.....except when landing a jump(In that case I still think modified IFS will outperform an SA). When flexing out only one side will compress...otherwise you are on level ground. In one of these posts someone put up a pic of the total chaos kit flexed out pretty well. I think that shows the validity of these kits. Granted the longtravel kits are made primarily for prerunners hitting dunes at highspeed or jumping their trucks. But flex is flex and I still think that it applies to rockcrawling and trail ridding.

deathrunner

Here's that pic of the chaos kit flexing out. This is the cheapest kit available. I think you can get it for 1700.00 The kit I'm getting is more solid construction and has the Uniball instead of the weak stock ball joints.



http://www.chaosfab.com/bottompics/caddyball2_03.jpg

deathrunner

http://www.chaosfab.com/bottompics/caddyball9_03.jpg

http://www.chaosfab.com/bottompics/caddyball10_06.jpg

http://www.chaosfab.com/bottompics/caddyball12_03.jpg

http://www.chaosfab.com/bottompics/caddyball3_03.jpg

http://www.chaosfab.com/bottompics/caddyuni8_06.jpg

Some more photos of the possibilities

Flygtenstein

Most competive crawlers are IFS? What have you been watching.

Randy Ellis had/has the Red Racer that was dual independent.

Walker Evans ditched the double independent buggy and has two 60's hanging now.

Look at the top of the leader boards. There are two solid axles and the majority are 60's.

I have maybe $450 in my total lift, with with two lockers and 33's, I have been fortunate enough to have tackled a lot of famous trails.

IFS lifts are a waste of money and do nothing to improve travel. Solid axles are cool to talk about on the internet.

Robinhood150

It sounded like you were referencing deathrunner when you said, "2 grand...?!" Anyways...

It sounds like we're all on the same page but just coming from different directions.

Deathrunner, IFS and IRS are dying in the comps. Also, the IFS ground clearance problem is well known.

deathrunner

I didn't say that most crawlers are IFS, I said some. My point isn't to prove that SA trucks are bad. They're awesome. I really like mallrat's 4runner and that's sa. I'm just pointing out that ifs is capable and may suit different needs. Why close your mind to an option. I think the more options we have available to our 4runners the more diverse our trucks will be and the more room for advancement in technology. I just think it is tough to deny the benefits of a built IFS.....just as it is difficult to deny the benefits of a solid axle.

Can you think of any reason that IFS might be better? I'm just curious why so many truck manufacturers switched to it if it is so bad.

AxleIke

I did start this thread, and i wanted to say that to me, it has been very satisfactory. I have no lift on my truck in the front, and i have heard excellent arguments for both IFS and Solid axle. Since it seems that both lifts are pretty expensive, i will hold off for now, and see what i can do with my front end the way it is. It seems from what you have all said, before i ever worry about my flex being an issue, or my amound of lift, i should worry about traction, like lockers, and gears. Thanks alot.

I would like to hear more of what you have to say as well, but i wanted to thank everyone who has taken time to help me understand the ins an outs of IFS versus SA.

Now, i have another question, since you all seem to know whats going on in a front end. How exactly does a torsion bar system work? I mean, how do these bars flex or whatever to make a suspesion system?

deathrunner

Leaf springs flex up and down(flattening and arching)

Coil Springs compress and expand

Torsion bars are a twisting kind of spring.
Basically the bar is attached to your upper control arm. It is twisted until there is enough torsion on the bar to provide ample lift to level the vehicle. You can twist harder or softer and it will affect ride height and ride quality.

Now this is where a arm length comes into play, the longer the arm, the more leverage there is applied to the torsion bar...therefore a softer ride compared to a shorter arm set to the same ride height. That is why Long-travel IFS setups are softer and more flexible. A thicker torsion bar will provide a stiffer spring rate (Sway away torsion bars).

If you look at chevy's and fords IFS you'll notice that their torsion bar is attached to the lower control arm. This is very apparent when they lift these trucks. The truck goes up, but the torsion bars are still vulnerable. In my opinion this is one reason the Toyota IFS is well thought out. Sorry...A little off topic, but somewhat related.

It seems like a nice thing that you can adjust the ride height with torsion bars. But in all practicality, when you crank the bars way up...it is like having no suspension at all. Flygtenstein hs the right idea by having the bars set to a moderate tension and using the balljoint spacers for lift.

I hope that helps

AxleIke

Thanks Deathrunner, now, how do these ball joint spacers work? I mean ,where do they go? I know almost nothing about the suspension on these first gens, but alot about the 3rd gen. Wierd considering we've had the first gen almost 15 years, and the third gen like 4. My dad has more money than me, so my truck is not as worked on as his.

In case anyone thinks it is strange that i am always talking about my old man on this forum, it is because i am 20, and me and my dad have been wheeling since i was 6 days old (my mom had an absolute fit, but i was out on a trail at 6 days ) Anyway, he has a 97 Runner, 3 inch OME, ARB, Warn m8000, and soon to have e-locker. He gave me the old 87. Needless to say, i have a lot to learn about wheeling from him, but i often ask tech questions for him on here. Thanks alot for all of your info.