jruz

I'd have to disagree. That'd be like saying there is no market for the Chevy Avalanche. You an I might never buy it...but some dumb schmuck might.

You mean any make? Like...hmm...maybe Jeep? They've continued their SA offerings...and with very good success.

I just think Toyota has left their roots. They started out with a very capable off-roader, the Land Cruiser, and they've been gradually moving away from it ever since. Saddness... :cry:

However, I agree...this will most likely never happen.

Jim

FirstToy

I, personally, would love for Toyota to come out with a solid front axle truck.

From a large car company's perspective? No, there is no market.

As for Jeep, they regularly get hit in reviews about their "dated" suspension. What do you think the new JGC next year will be? What is the Liberty? The only reason the Wrangler remains is because it costs nothing to produce and keeps the image. The Rubicon lists for $26K! That is luxury car levels of markup on that Wrangler!

Does the current JGC still have a solid front axle? I don't know personally.
It's a unibody, German suv with poor reliability. That's all I know about it.

As for the Avalanche, they are selling well for GM.

Shane

I disagree, my truck post SAS without front shocks (they're supposed to be here tomorrow...) rides BETTER (if a little bouncy) than it ever did with the factory IFS crap. The lack of market IMO is mostly due to all the "IFS is better" brainwashing that they've been pushing down our throats over the last 20 or so years. The general public, ie "sheeple", nod their heads and buy what they're told to.

All we can hope at this point is that they keep the frame-on-body construction so axle swaps remain possible, god forbid they move to unibody... *shudder*

jruz

Agreed, but I like to keep my mind a little dirty, you know to keep things interesting...



Jim

Shane

We don't need to hear about your dark culvert stories again Jim...

jruz

:pat:

jruz

All I know is that Jeep is still doing relatively well in the market...and they recently introduced the whole "Trail Rated" propaganda. Toyota needs a wake-up call, not all of us are pavement wheelers.

re: Avalanche, yeah, no doubt. Just goes to show that there is a market for anything...

Jim

Cebby

My 2000 JGC has a SFA AND it's a unibody. For a Heep, it ain't all that bad...

FirstToy

Well I'm not disagreeing with you. I said several times I would like there to be a sfa truck. I'm just pointing out some marketing reality.

I looked up the JGC and it says it has an IFS. As for "trail rated", that is just marketing b.s. exactly for the pavement wheelers. I think the Wrangler might be the only production SFA?

The Avalanche is just a 4door pickup alternative to the 4 door Ram and F150.
They have the "non-cladding" version that is selling really well.

On road, IFS is smoother than SFA. That is just physics. I'm not saying it because I have a IFS truck. The reason IFS is popular is because of the on-road superiority over SFA. I don't consider it brainwashing, but an advance in suspension design that allows more on-road control, comfort, greater interior volume and efficient use of space. All perfect for sedans and people-movers.

jruz

...clean as a whistle...yup...clean as a whistle...



Jim

FirstToy

Cebby,
when did they change the JGC into IFS or is it still SFA?

Cebby

I know for sure that my 2000 has a SFA. I really don't want to lay in the snow to take a pic of it The JGC has had a SFA since its inception through 2003. They may have switched to IFS for 2004, but I doubt it since the plan was to make this switch with the 2005 redesign and addition of the Hemi.

Shane

No, that's your opinion.
I'll give you the greater on-road control, but that is the only advantage it has in my opinion. It makes no difference on interior volume, I'm not sure which "volume" you meant but space or sound wise there is no difference. Efficent use of space? I've got a whole hell of a lot more space around my oil pan now with the SFA, before I couldn't even see it. I think it was a waste of space. Ride comfort is another personal opinion, as well as depending on good design and balance of springs and shocks. A SFA suspension if properly setup can ride very smooth over terrain that would make the stock IFS bottom/top out.
Are you absolutely sure?!?! Better go out and check

Robinhood150

I don't believe you. You're always just making up stuff.


Isn't an IFS wrangler in the works?

FirstToy

That's not my opinion. That is automotive design history 101. No way I'm going to debate this just like arguing if a rock is hard or not.

Cebby,
I guess they incorrectly stated IFS for the JGC in the stats I read.

Ocelot

The Jeep Grand Cherokee deffinately has a SFA and will untill October 2004, at which time a totaly redesigned IFS Grand Cherokee will come out.



And thats going to suck because there will be no more:

FirstToy

wow, that's an awesome pic!
Yeah I checked edmunds.com review of the 2004 JGC and it says IFS but in the photos I can clearly see the front pumpkin.

Ocelot

Yep, the first time I saw that I was like . SFA is pretty sweet . The next Grand Cherokee is supposed to have the 5.7L Hemi though, so it would probably make a pretty sweet tow rig!

Andrew

As a former 4Runner owner and current 02 Grand Cherokee owner, I thought I would pipe in here...

The '05 Grand Cherokee (WK) will have IFS. The Liberty has IFS. All other Jeeps (with a few specialty military vehicles) have always had two solid axles. That includes all Grand Cherokees, Wranglers, and Cherokees.

The Grand has a Dana 30 front and a Dana 35 or 44a rear axle (depending on model).

It's a stout vehicle and easy to lift. You can do a 2.5" budget boost spacer lift for $100. Can't fit much bigger than 245/75s though. There are two V8s... the high output one will deliver 0-60s in the 7 second range stock. Reliability-wise, the engines, transmissions, and transfer cases are strong. I've had a number of electrical problems with mine and I'm not going to lie to you- my 4Runner was much more reliable.

It would be difficult to compare my 4Runner (00) and Jeep in terms of handling/ride since they are different vehicles. The 4Runner had more accurate, precise steering but the Jeep has a plusher, better controlled ride. I always thought the 4Runner's ride was a little flinty and bouncy. The Jeep also leans less in corners.

Off road they're probably about equal. The 4Runner's factory locker certainly made a difference, but so does the Jeep's flex. Both had all-season highway tires. The 4Runner's clearance was nice, but the Jeep has considerably better skidplates and tow hooks.

Jeep's "Trail Rated" ad campaign is nothing short of a marketing scheme. I'm sure there is some extra testing going on because they have to live up to some ethical promotional standards... but the tests are simply designed to give Jeep a more "rugged image." That said, Jeep Jamborees and Jeep 101 really help out there. Likewise, the recentish introduction of the Rubicon Wrangler with its front and rear lockers, MT/Rs, and super-low t-case are good signs. The Liberty with IFS is a bad sign, but at least it's a reasonably flexy IFS. There is no IFS Wrangler in the future pipeline. There is no way Jeep could possibly pull that off without alienating its most loyal buyers. That said, beginning next year all Land Rovers sold in the US will be IFS/IRS... and the new Range Rover is extremely capable off road. So it's possible to make a capable STOCK IFS/IRS vehicle. Modifying one is a challenge, though.

Toyota definitely has lost ground in the "rugged" segment. The new 4Runner is still a capable vehicle but I don't think anyone would argue with me that the 96-00 4Runners with their optional diff locker and gobs of ground clearance were the most capable stock 4-door 4Runners. Although I've not 'wheeled with one yet, looking at pictures on the internet would lead me to believe that my Jeep is probably more capable in most off road situations due to its small size, SFA, and available vari-lok axles (basically lockers that take an entire wheel revolution of slip to actuate).


All this said, I'm hoping to sell my Jeep in about a year to get a more efficient daily driver (read: Jetta TDI) and a dedicated trail-rig because off-roading a late model SUV without the funds to back up repairs or have another daily driver borders on ludicrous.


edit: I wanted to clarify one thing... FirstToy stated that the Jeep GC is a German SUV. Not in the least. It was fully designed before the Daimler takeover. It is built in DETROIT, MICHIGAN. However, the little "SRS AIRBAG" badge I have on my headliner for the curtain airbags is the exact same label my friend has on her E320 Mercedes. The Germans are taking over!

jruz

A rock is hard...all the time. Unless you're talkin' Steve Perry.



I'll respect your wishes as to not debating...just don't assume you're right.

Jim