Uisge Beathe

I am building a 3RZ up from a bare block and would like to hear from the people that have actually deleted their balance shafts as to increased power, longevity, vibration. This is my daily driver, so I want longevity, as well as my camping, 4x4, off roading..so I also want reliability. I don't mind a little extra vibration, and would love some extra HP, but my concern is premature wear on the crank and bearings and timing set due to any added vibration. It seems to be likened to installing a lightened flywheel and I'm curious as to what the real world results are...seeing as how this is my camping, 4x4, camping, etc vehicle I'm not sure higher revving less bottom end is the direction I want to go, if those are the actual results people are seeing.

Plenty of threads on here full of opinions on whether or not to do it but I'm hoping to hear from people that have actually done it and talk about their experiences beyond "I did it to mine, do it to yours".

Was it worth it?

What king of longevity have you seen (how many miles on the engine)?

Did you lose any bottom end?

Please tell me/us your results

martinfan30

I am a thirteen year Toyota tech with MDT status and from my experience, I would not recommend this.

camo31_10.50

I for one, would like to know what a "balance shaft" is.

Kthanks

martinfan30

In those engines, there are two shafts running off of the timing chain. They have weights that when spinning, counter react and compensate for all the reciprocating mass in the engine.

Helps them run a little smoother. 4 cylinders are plagued by vibrations.

Gerdo

That sounds like it would be as good as running without a harmonic balance. It is there to cancel out bad vibrations and w/o the engine would vibrate it's self to pieces.

I would not do it.

camo31_10.50

wtf was toyota thinking?

why didn't they just balance the motor internally?

FogRunner

I never understood peoples rational behind doing massive surgery and modifications to their engine in the pursuit of a few horsepower at the price of engine longevity and reliability.

The amount of power your going to gain isn't going to be worth the risks and effort involved. If you want more HP out of that engine the only option is going to be forced induction.


FOG

Uisge Beathe

A harmonic balancer and balance shafts don't carry out the same function. The harmonic balancer is used to cancel out torsional vibrations in the crankshaft (twisting back and forth). Unless the engine is externally balanced, it doesn't even balance the rotating assembly. The balance shafts cancel out engine movement due to the harmonics of the engine itself. Be it a rocking or hopping movement. The balance shafts also have no effect on the reciprocating assembly balance and generally considered for "creature comfort". If it were brand new, off the lot, HELL NO I wouldn't want to feel any vibration but seeing as how it's a 1998 with almost 300K on the clock I'm not as concerned.

Harmonic balancers and balance shafts exist for completely different reasons, so you can't use "one or the other". The harmonic balancer prevents crankshafts/oil pumps/timing belts/valvetrains/etc from breaking, and the balance shafts stop the engine from vibrating up and down. Granted...ANY added vibration will indeed more than likely be a detriment to the total life of the engine and that is why I posted here asking for input from people that have ACTUALLY done this mod.

I know alot of the DSM crowd remove theirs from Talon/Eclipse/Laser, popular also with Ford Focus, Mazda, Ecotec and Duratec even Subaru and Porsche.

Uisge Beathe

Thank you for responding, would you care to elaborate please. I already understand what the basic concerns are but can you please relay your real world experience as to what problems you have actually seen arise from engines that have had their balance shafts deleted.

Uisge Beathe

Massive surgery??? I guess it's massive surgery if you were pulling the engine just to delete the balance shafts in "pursuit" of a few hp as you put it, but the actual deleting of the balance shafts isn't what I would consider to be massive surgery. It's quite simple, especially if you are doing a bare block rebuild like I am.

You said doing this mod would be "at the price of engine longevity and reliability". I understand the reasoning behind this but is it safe to assume then that you have done this modification and you have actual results to share? I'm okay if I only get 100k out of this engine instead of another 300K.

I would love to hear from people that have actually done this modification.

flashkl

http://www.lceperformance.com/Balanc...-p/1015050.htm

Uisge Beathe

Thanks Flashkl...I'm familiar with the delete kit from LCE and even contacted them asking them essentially the same question, but seeing as how they have something to sell I also wanted to ask here to get unbiased opinions from the members that have actually done it and what their experiences were/are.

Here is LCE's response: "Eliminating the balance shaft will not hurt the engine in any way. The only down side would be a little more engine vibration felt in the cab. They will take some drag off the engine to help get a little more power and faster acceleration from it. We do it on any performance build, even for a daily driven application. "

Gerdo

I know that Harmonic balances and balance shafts have different functions but they both remove/minimize vibrations. Vibrations in an an engine is not good for it. If you feel that you know more than Toyota then Go for it then. While you are at it take the motor mounts out and weld the engine in. That will take the un-necessary movement out and the wasted energy.

flashkl

Vibrations are not good for an engine, yet a 22re which as far as I know has no balance shaft is one of the most reliable engines of all time. A Harmonic balancer deletes engine vibrations that are detrimental to an engines life, but a balance shaft is more for making an engine feel smoother and more luxurious.

martinfan30

I have no experience with an engine that has had the balance shafts removed.

I do however have experience with Toyota and their engineers design strategy.
Every engine they have produced is engineered in a specific way, for specific applications. Removing major components from an engine defeats a specific purpose.

Toyota spends so much money and time on R&D, that it just makes sense to me to trust their judgment. Their experience far outweighs yours, mine and probably anyone else's thoughts on this board.

Like said, I wouldn't be above trying this mod on a vehicle that I personally own, that is not new. Nor on one that has less than 100k on the clock. Then it's game on!

Uisge Beathe

I never suggested that I know better than Toyota engineers, that's why I turned to this valuable forum for the vast knowledge of the members seeking the advice from people that have actually done this mod and not just a bunch of opinions.

I guess LCE and Gadget, Doug Thorley and every after market developer knows better than Toyota. Either that or some OEM products are developed for creature comfort and after market ones are developed for performance. I'm not suggesting doing anything that hasn't already been done. LCE is the ones that make the balance shaft delete "kit" all I did was ask what the real world results were from people that have deleted their shafts, without plugging LCE in my original post...so thank you for contributing!!!

Uisge Beathe

Thank you....well said!!!

85excab

well let me be the first one to chime in on actually running a 3rz with the balance shaft delete. lce's kit is not needed, i had my whole bottom end balanced and left the balance shafts in place. just remove the chain that turns them. ive been running this way for 6 months now and have had no problems. i even have solid poly motor mounts and daily drive it to work everyday. the added acceleration is nice in traffic on 35" tires too.

85excab

ohh and this is the wrong board to ask this question on, try marlin's website where there are quite a few runnin the 3rz without balance shafts.
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=19275.0

Uisge Beathe

Thanks for the input and the info, 85excab.