Texas_Ace

Who said anything about $5k for a SC setup?

I got my complete setup with headers, A/F gauge, URD 7th, URD 2.2 pulley, Supercharger and rebuild all for under $2k.

Just need to get my RX7 or MR2 running so i can spare the time to install it. But a SC setup can be done on the cheap if needed. Heck i could have got a basic SC without all the extras for well under $1000 then added the rest as i could afford it. But i would rather know that it is done right from the start.

You could sell your current engine for $500 - $1000 and make up most of the cost of the supercharger

As for swapping your engine, personally i would just keep the other one around until you need it. Or build it up slowly into a big power motor.

Either way why mess with a working engine? Unless you just can not store the other engine. Then just swap it out yourself. Not hard at all, just some heavy lifting.

Then take the $$$$ you saved doing it yourself and the $$$ from selling your old engine and go buy a SC. On your truck the loss in MPG should not be much. Since you have the lift and bigger tires the stock engine is having to use a lot more power to get it moving ALL the time. With the SC it won't have to rev as high/use the gas peddel as much to get it moving so as long as you drive the same the MPG should stay about the same, it could even improve.

xcmountain80

Well hmmm. minimal loos huh. I wish I could find some numbers and similarly built rig to compare numbers with. I will probably have to just store it. And build and build. How did the stock trd'd tacomas come fuel mods wise?

Aaron

BigBallsMcFalls

if the tranny is the same it will be a 1 for 1 swap almost 99.999%

in other words, couple'a nuts, some greeze, ....toss in some blinker fluid...done


they are the essentially identical in the engine bay with
what you are concerned with

Texas_Ace

The stock SC'ed engines came with no fuel mods, and though it works it DOES lean out. Espically in hot climates.

I don't have any numbers for you. but just from experiance the MPG loss should not be that great. It all depends on how you drive it.

If you keep it out of boost and drive it easy your MPG should stay about the same if not go up. the problem is that it is a lot easier and more fun to get on it with the SC and that is what casues most MPG loss with it.

When you are not in boost the engine is not making any more power then it being NA or using more fuel. It is all in how you drive it.

xcmountain80

Well I'm stumped a bit, I figured with the added weight of the rig I would be loosing, though in theory more power to get more weight up to the same speed with less effort does = better fuel economy.

Aaron

Texas_Ace

Exactly.

The SC acts the same as an NA when out of boost, and it will just go into boost as much as needed.

The SC just means that it is more sensitive when you do step on it.

Simple terms:

Lead foot = Loss of MPG

Light foot = Same or better MPG

Now i can't promiss any results obiously. but as a rule Supercharging or turbocharging something doesn't effect much IF YOU DRIVE IT THE EXACT SAME AS BEFORE.

Boosting something just makes it more sensitive to stepping on the gas. Stay off the gas and as a rule it will act about the same.

If i remember right the offical MPG rating on the stock SC 4runners was only like 1mpg less then an NA. With all the stuff on your's the extra power should help you use less gas if you drive the same.

You keep seeing me talk about driving the same for a reason. It is easy to boost a car then to think you are driving the same as before when really the way you drive it is much harder. Because it is soo much fun after boosting it to drive it hard!

97ltd4x4

Well,its not hard to swap a motor with the right equiptment,biggest issue is going to be exaust nuts/gaskets rusted..and getting to the top bellhousing bolts from underneith.

I thought about this as well...What I would do is tear the new block down,machine shop it,new rings,bearings,new front and rear main seals....Have the heads machined,3 angle,port match,smooth runner castings,new valve guides,cams reshimmed.

I would do this bit by bit,since you have time(vehical not down)....Start buying assembly parts.......factory head gasket set,new exhaust studs and nuts,crossover and new down pipe gaskets.waterpump,thermostat,t-belt,ect

Once you have the block and heads and parts ready to go...rent a cherry picker for a couple of days,pull the heads off first(makes getting the exaust and bellhousing bolts much,much easier...pull the block........install new block,install machined heads(headgaskets,ect),install exhaust..build the front timing componants,install everything else.

It would cost under2k for all the parts and machine work,you would have a rebuilt motor,with probably more power because of the head work.

If i ever find a cheap 3.4 I might consider doing this If I know i am going to keep the vehical forever.The nice thing is,since you are in no rush... you can take a year or two,$100 by $100 buying the parts,ect.And once its all ready to go take a weekend and an a friends help and have a new motor ready for another 200k or longer.

I know I make it sound easy,I have done about 10 headgaskets on the 3.4(96' when they first had external leaks...in my previous career).........If you can do a waterpump/t-belt and valve cover gaskets.. pulling heads and motor is not too far off,skill wise....major hangups will be tools,jack positioning,exaust fasteners,torqueing down heads....also pictures before,labeling connectors/vacuum lines/being orginized where bolts/nuts go will help....also disassembling the motor followed by reinstalling it will be fresh in your memory.

xcmountain80

Hmm would it be worth while or even cost effective to have the heads ported (or is this the same as port matched) and polished? Then do all the other stuff and then add a sc?

Aaron

Texas_Ace

a P&P will always help you get more power. cams can also help with power but most cams move the power band higher which will lower your MPG some since you will have to rev higher.

Really if MPG is a big deal to you then the max i would do other then a SC and just a good rebuild is a port and polish. But even that is not needed.

The 5vz is a real tourqy motor and this allows you to get moving without having to rev it real high which saves on gas milage.

If i was you and MPG is a big deal, i would take that other engine you have and over a pieriod of time rebuild it to factory specs. Get a GOOD RELIBLE and REPUTIPABLE (yes i know SP?) machine shop to do the work. Ten get some new pistons/rings (dirt cheap). Then all new bearings.

Have the head cleaned and re-shimmed, while in there replacing the springs might be a good idea as well.

Make sure everything is back to OEM specs and you have a basically new engine to install.

Swap the engiens and then run it NA for the first 1000 - 3000miles to get the rings broken in.

Then during this time keep an eye on ebay for a good deal on a SC (i got mine for $300 but that is rare, $500 - $1000 though can be found). Then rebuild the SC, get the URD 7th kit.

Install all of it and you are ready to go!

You will get a lot of extra power and should at least keep the same MPG if not go up some. In fact is Should go up some with the rebuild as a "new" engine will get better MPG after being broken in then an old engine.




NOW, if you want more power at the expense of MPG loss, then you can P&P, forged pistons, cams, springs, complete rebuild, headers, the whole nine yards. You will get more power but will lose some MPG. It will also lose some of the low end tourqe which is a big reason i love the 5vz.

I pulled 6000 pounds the other day with my engine still NA and it took it all in stride, didn't have a problem (now the brakes on the other hand got pretty hot and warped some).

xcmountain80

OK this plan is a go and the engine wasn't lost as I thought it was. Ok so a P&P from a highly reputable shop and pretty much a tear down and rebuild. What will a shop need to do? Obviously a P&P will need to be outsourced, what else can I handle? I'm pretty mechanically inclined and don't see a tear down being out of my abilities. A parts list would help. I'll probably need table mounted engine cradle and a engine lift just to get it out of the rear of my 4runner and into the garage.

Aaron

Texas_Ace

Well what you need to do and have done will vary a lot depending on what you plan to do with the engine.

Are you going to supercharge it or leave it NA? (let me tell you, Supercharging it is WELL worth the $$$$).

Budget will also determine a lot, Basic list for either way:

Machine work:

You will need to tear it down and have the bores either re-honed or re-bored depending on what shape they are in. I would personally rebore them .020 over and then get new pistons while i have the engine apart but that it just me.

You will need to make sure the crank and cams are all in good shape, if they need any polishing now is the time for it.

That is all you will NEED done, everything else is optional or depending on the condition of the engine.

parts you will need are piston rings for sure:

complete set of bearings

complete set of seals and gaskets.

new thermostat

new oil pump would not be a bad idea but not a must. at least look at the one on there.

after that everything else is on an as needed basis.

Now if it was my engine and i was taking the time and effort to rebuild it, i would want it done and ready for anything later. and know that i will not need to worry about it for at least 300k. i would do something like this, starting from the bottom and going up:




Rebore it .020 over

Have crank looked at by a professional if you have the slightest doubt about it.

Get new bearing all around.

Get new seals and gaskets all around

New forged rods (the stock crank is forged if I remember correctly, don’t remember about the rods though, either way make sure they are forged)

New forged pistons and rings for .020 over, now this is something that will depend on your goals, if you are 100% sure you will stay NA then go with the stock 9.6:1 or even a little higher, maybe 10:1, any higher than that though and you will need premium fuel. If you are going to supercharge it later then going with a little lower compression ratio will help with any knocking you might get and allow you to run more boost say a 2.1 or 2.0 pulley instead of the 2.2. If I was going to boost it, I would go with 9.0 pistons. Will still give you lots of tourqe and NA power but will allow higher boost levels. With water injection a 2.0 pulley would be easy.

New oil pump

Have heads checked to make sure mating surface is perfect

Have a mild P&P done to the heads

Get new stiffer valve springs

New slightly oversized valves

New slightly larger cams

Then all the normal rebuild parts and pieces.

Oh and install some headers while that engine is out of the truck, espically with the other stuff you can do to the engine the power gains will be noticable and you will shoot yourself later if you try to instll then after the engine is installed.

xcmountain80

My God man you are a wealth of information! I would absolutely love a SC but could always add it later so I think thats how my re-build will go . Re-build the engine so it can have a SC later. I will have about a year to build it up so no rush. I will look for a used SC as a new one is far to pricey. Do you know what the maintenance interval is on the SC I though it was 30K or was it 60K (something with the impellers and sending it to magnuson something). The engine is out of a 02 Taco with around 110K. The truck was flipped and destroyed. The engine is in good shape and begging to go into my truck sometime in the next year and a half. I also read somewhere there could be an issue with headers and the 1" body lift. But I would imagine a non issue if though out enough in advance.

Aaron

Texas_Ace

Well compared to some people i am a novice, but i have been around cars long enough to know my way around them. I am actually going to be rebuilding my MR2 engine this next year as well. So i am going through a lot of the same stuff you are. Only with a 3sgte instead of a 5vzfe. The sad part is that the i4 should give me more power then my V6 in my truck when i am done. Quite a bit more.

That sounds like a good plan and what i would do if i was you, budget will also be an issue. To do the rebuild i listed out will run you at least $1000 and depnding on how much machining costs could be closer to $2000. Really depends on the machine work.

TRD says that you need to have the SC checked every 60k miles but doing it every 30k will ensure that you don't have a ruined housing. Plus you should only need bearings every 30k and impelers every other time. Whatever you buy i would spend the little bit of $$ and send it to have it at least inspected.

Like for mine, i got a deal on mine at $300 for the SC that i knew would need a rebuild. Then had the bearings replaced for $300 and can have the impelers replaced later when i have the $$ for another $250. Keep an eye out, when gas price start going up again people will start selling more superchargers.

As for the headers and the 1" body lift, the way i see it the body lift would make it easier to fit. if there are any problems though i am sure that it would not be too hard to work it out as you said. Only place i can think of that might be a problem is behind the engine, might get tight back there but i think you would actually have more room back there.

toy_tek

Don't forget a new water pump. And I'd add tensioner & idler pulley bearings to the list.

Texas_Ace

Yep, water pump for sure, and of course the timing belt.

xcmountain80

Good to know I'll start my white board list in the garage though I'll need a white board. As for the headers fitment it had something to do with the steering shaft. But I'll take a look.

Aaron

97ltd4x4

I would not bore the block,unless the machine shop suggest doing that..I am fairly certain Toyota uses fordged crank and rods,I believe pistons as well,They might have changed the pistons on recent models?...The only reason I say not to bore the cylinders,Is that Toyota(atleast from what i can remember)offered two size pistons,one standard replacement ones,and another larger size...one something crazy like 70 over..These engines are not typical domestic type...I am sure aftermarket make all kinds of pistons,but going through all that trouble...If it was mine I don't think I would skimp on parts..

Also,If you decide to machine the engine,Make sure to find the machine shop that has done Toyota work before...Ask your local dealer who they use...

I say this because Toyota machines each journal individually,then matches each crank journal to a bearing...On a typical Toyota engine,there might be four differant size crank bearings..The numbers are stamped inside the block underneith the oil pan....They range from numbers 0-4,in a particular order...This is why Toyota engines last so long the tolarances are super tight...
The other thing about selecting a machine shop,You want them to have a selection of Toyota valve shims on hand,Once they cut the valve seats,they need to be replaced with the correct thickness ones..I think there are approx 40 diff. shims...So they need to have delt with these engines before to set it up correctly.

These engines are tough,Sould need minimum machine work(no knocking/smoking,ect)all that sould need to be done..Hot tanked,Polish crank,light hone of cylinder walls,deck block and heads,cut valve seats,shim cams/valves,replace bearings(crank might need to have a journal turned,but a diff# bearing can be used),new rings,headgasket kit..and typical new parts,w/pump,seals,ect.......You could have them port and polish heads and gasket match ports as well,not needed though,but will make more power...The engine sould be good for another 300+k miles...

xcmountain80

Damn ! might need to cut and paste this into a check sheet and ask some shops. "Are you able and willing to do this?" "Have you done this before?"

Aaron

Texas_Ace

I will agree with that. Though i do know there are quite a few quality piston/rod manufactures out there with .020 over pistons. I know when i was looking at rebuilding mine. I would agree with getting OEM rods for sure.

The need for boring will be determained mainly by what shape the bores are in now. As i said in the first list, a good honing will get you running fine.

xcmountain80

Getting closer



Aaron