ravencr

Hey Jay,

Do you have anything solid backing up why these units don't work, because it seems that you are pretty sure they are gimmicks. But, how can you compare the mileage difference between what everyone is getting versus HaveBlue's? He's getting better than anyone that I've seen on that poll that was done recently.

Chris

HaveBlue

I am not a dealer, but I have inquired about getting on as a dealer. In order to become a dealer, 4 units have to be purchased. I need to call again to see what the dealer cost is. I will do that today and post another reply here.

As for the thermostat...I noticed a slight increase in throttle response and a slight increase in acceleration between 2500-3500 rpm. But, I lost an average of 1.2 mpg. I think I will keep it in because I like the fact that I'm running at a lower temperature especially when going offroad. It also eliminated the pinging associated with the 9lb s/c pulley.

I can't tell you if it is or isn't worth the investment. I bought the unit purely as an experiment with as much skepticism as everyone here has. It has taken several months to fine-tune the unit for the best results and I am somewhat impressed with the results.
I would like to see someone with an unmodified engine try the unit as well. I believe that there could be more mileage to be had. I believe my figures could be higher. However, I have 305cc injectors and a S-AFC that tend to defeat the primary purpose of the Fuel Atomizer.

Here’s where I stand:
I believe the unit works. When I buy a 1st gen 4Runner, I will purchase another unit to install on that rig. If, indeed, it does not improve fuel economy on that rig and my results were just a fluke, I still like the fact that the unit removes or reduces the amount of junk being re-circulated through the engine.

I will be trying the heat exchanger very soon, probably even this weekend. It’s very crude looking. It consists of a 9” length of 2” copper pipe and 6’ of 3/8” copper tubing. The copper tubing is wrapped around the copper pipe. The radiator hose (I chose the upper hose) has a 7” section removed so that it will accept the 9” copper pipe. The main fuel line gets re-routed to the 3/8” tubing so that the fuel can be heated by the engine coolant. The fuel pressure regulator must be re-located so that the pressure can be regulated BEFORE the fuel becomes a vapor.
Once again, many thanks to Gadget for the great idea!

ravencr

I'm going to get one too, Haveblue. I guess I'll also get the thermostat, because of the cooler running temperatures. It can never hurt, even though it makes the engine run a tad richer. Thanks for everything on this!

Chris

ravencr

Hey Haveblue,

Would you mind telling us how to install all that heat exchanger thing in as much detail, maybe pictures, etc. whenever you are finished doing it. I would greatly appreciate it. I'd like to know how it comes out. Maybe we can get it into the tech section on here.

Chris

HaveBlue

Can DO!

I'll take detailed pictures and notes and post the on here. I'll also take notes of any effects it has on mileage or on the engine.

ravencr

Sounds great! I can't wait to see if it helps even more.

Chris

Good Times

piece of crap, waste of money...

spend your money on better mods that REALLY work!

ravencr

I'm beginning to wonder if any of you negative folks around hear have any hard evidence to back up your comments as to why they are a piece of crap. All I have so far is very good eveidence that they do work, and work really well, actually. Just check the Thread on Gas mileage, and see if anyone is beating HaveBlue's MPG numbers. That's good enough for me, don't you all think?

Chris

Good Times

Chris you do have a point.

BUT, if this product is all that, then why doesn't the mfg for all autos use this product in the first place to help the mpg? I mean you figure it gives you high hp and better gas milage. If this is such a hot product, it should be all advertising, news and even "a technological" improvement over current standards.

But you have never heard this in the news or even the auto mfg advertising these items.

My views are that you pretty much can't improve mpg unless u change the very characteristic of the engine itself. You can add more HP but as you know more HP means more gas... just basic science...

This is almost like a scene from "tommy boy" where they talk about guarantee's.... heck I can guarantee my "crap" and people will buy it!....

i'd say listen to jay, he's one of the top dogs here that know's his stuff. If he believes that it's a gimmick then I know it's pretty much that...

you can try it yourself and tell us if it works!... we're always down for more information on new products!

If you're looking to save gas, i'd say drive carefully and u'll save abit if ya want hp, then u're gonna end up burning quite abit of gas. looking at your array of mods u have i'd say your best bet is just to get the larger injectors. a much safer route.

try giving gadget a buzz on the specific for your sc and the injectors, he'll be able to give you a wealth of info for the sc.

ravencr

Your statements are true to an extent, but I've always heard that the reason that our mainstream automobiles do not get better gas mileage and these types of products are not advertised could easily be because of the heat received from the Gas companies. They are powerful people to mess with. Imagine if Michigan decided to produce cars with all the available technology to save gas and be perfect cars. They wouldn't be affordable (which they already aren't), and they would get way over 50 mpg, and could possibly run off water. In fact folks that create products like these have been known to dissappear for obvious reasons. Truth? I don't know for sure, but I can understand the potential for it to happen. Just think if you ran a string of gas stations, such as BP. Would you want cars to get 50 mpg or 20 mpg? Would you have your lobbyists fight against this new technology for gas mileage if it meant it would cut your profits down to less than half of what you make now? I think we all know the answer to that, I beleive!

I'm going to try it and I will tell everyone what my results are once installed.

Chris

DrummerDaveB

I've kept pretty quiet about this till now, but here are my thoughts.

It does sound like a gimick, just like the tornado crap. Will it improve gas mileage? I'd have to see more than one just person's testimonial to decide.

BUT . . if this thing does keep crap out of your engine, Im suprised you guys (especially you who love synthetics) havent jumped on the idea of keeping contaminants out of your engine.

How much money do you spend on Synthetic oil, and gear oil, and tranny fluid???

midiwall

Thanks for the additional info Alan, but can you tell me what tweaking and "fine tuning" you did? It looks like the unit doesn't really allow for much outside of the flow control on the T-valve.

ravencr

That's a good point DrummerDave! I just got done talking with someone here at the dealership that said the changing of oil in our vehicles is very important for some reason. Didn't get into it, but he said that you don't want to wait too long on our engines because of the buildup of crap in the engine. Funny, heh?

Chris

Good Times

actually i would highly agree on changing your fluids all the time...

these fluids are all living and in time they do decay (lets not get scientific but like anything else, when it gets old it gets ugly. hehe). So ideally speaking if you don't plan to change your oil for a long time, you're gonna be in a world of hurt down the road. I'd say making sure you keep up w/ your maintenance is number 1 goal for all of our vehicles.

Treasuring our vehicles will ensure an extended lifespam on your trucks! I know it's a toyota and it will last longer than a domestic but if you treat it like crap it'll come back and kick you in the butt later on.

chris, keep us posted on your mod and i hope it does work this way you can prove us all wrong and say not all products are crap!

HaveBlue

I whole-heartedly agree with those of you who would like to hear more than one person's testimony. I have done the same thing myself. I have conducted A LOT of research on various ways to improve economy. Everyone is entitle to their own opinion, and everyone should respect that. However, there is no need to bash anyone's opinion.

I am not on a mission to advertise or sell these units. I was asked to provided additional information, so I am.
At this point, I have not heard any evidence, positive or negative, that confirms any claims made here or anywhere else about the effect of such devices as the Tornado Fuel Saver, SpiralMax or any magnetic devices. All I have heard, or read, is skepticism. If you don't believe that any of these products work, that's okay. You're entitled to your own opinion and your own decision. But, since I was asked to provided additional information, I though I would oblige and respond since everyone else here has done the same for me when I have had questions.
Once again, I am not trying to advertise or sell the Fuel Atomizer. I am not a dealer. I am not an agent for that company. I am in no way employed by Wyoming Instruments, seller of the Fuel Atomizer. However, if there is further interest in this unit, I would be interested in becoming a dealer and getting a preferred price for those who are interested.

I can give you a long answer or a short answer. I have done much research on this, too. I have written several high school and college essays about this and similar subjects. It all boils down to the welfare of the U.S. economy. As a population, the US pays the least for gasoline and other petroleum products. England drivers must pay between 3-6 times more than the US. I bet UKMyers and another gentleman on this forum (whose screen-name escapes me) could vouch for that. If I remember one of my statistics correctly, the US accounts for 43% of the worlds oil consumption.
What's my point? Big oil=big business.
Additionally, the US is a power hungry country. Most (not all) Americans have to have the big powerful SUV, truck, or car. I'm one of them. And I'm damn proud of it. There is no demand and will never be a demand for the extremely economical car in the US unless gas jumps to $5/gallon. Then, suddenly, you'll see a "For Sale" sign in almost every Suburban, Excursion, Tahoe and probably a few 4Runners (oops, probably hit a nerve there).

Why aren't there more cars with this technology?
Fact is, there is! Just not in the U.S. My research has revealed numerous fuel sipping cars overseas. VW makes the Lupo. A 1.3L deisel powered 2-door that gets 65 mpg (not kpl). The former CEO of VW drove a prototype called the 1L. It was called the 1L because it could go over 300 km (about 180 miles) on 1L of fuel. That would equate to about 720 mpg. So why isn't this actively marketed in Europe or the U.S? It's too expensive. The 1L is made out of magnesium and carbon fiber. It would simply be too expenive to mass produce. Why isn't the Lupo marketed in the U.S? It is...as the Golf. Only, the Golf is quieter, has better suspension, and a different engine.
It's sad that there are only a handful of choices for Americans seeking a car that gets great economy. The VW Golf and Jetta TDI has an EPA rating of 45-55 mpg. But they cost $18,000. The Toyota Prius has an EPA rating of 50-60, but costs nearly $20K. The Honda Insight acheives 65+ mpg. I've spoken to a gentlemen that consistantly acheives 90 mpg. But they cost $21K+ and only seat 2. There's a few more, but I think I've made my point.
It costs big money to make an economical car. Why? Well, let's look at the physics, first.
Gasoline is more volatile and therefore burns more completely as a vapor. However, in an internal combustion engine, too high a temperature can lead to vapor lock. Too low a temperature, and not all of the fuel will be burned. So, how do the car manufacturers combat this? Keep the car cool, dump fuel into the combustion chamber, and whatever doesn't get burned gets passed to the catalytic converter to be broken down by extreme heat. It costs less to install a catalytic convertor than it does to develop and incorporate a temperature control system that will allow the complete combustion of fuel, but not vapor lock the engine.

Now, for those who want more info about the fuel atomizer I installed on my 4Runner, here it is:
The adjustment to "fine-tune" the unit is on the unit itself. Look at this picture:
Fuel Atomizer
The silver lever on the side being held in place by the wingnut is the adjustment lever. Moving the lever UP closes the valve and reduces the amount of vapor entering the engine. Moving the lever DOWN, increases the amount of vapor.
When I ordered the unit, Wyoming Instruments provided almost everything I needed. The only thing I had to purchase was 3/8" fuel line.
Here's the setup:
fuel is provided to the atomizer via the fuel return line
T'd fuel return
The fuel travels through 1/8" copper tubing (provided with the unit)
I wrapped mine in high-temp insulating wrap, similar to header wrap, to prevent premature vaporization.
The fuel travels through the Atomizer and is returned as a vapor to the engine through the throttle body where the PCV hose would normally be attached. The PCV hos is re-routed through the Atomizer. This is where the unit really shines. All the junk from the PCV valve get's dumped into the sludge chamber. Here's a picture:
Sludge
This stuff looks like mustard and smells like gas and oil. The last batch I dumped when I changed my oil was a little thicker than chocolate syrup. It also had some very, very fine metal bits. I really hope that's from the atomizer and not from the engine.

Any other questions? I'd be glad to answer...

Good Times

Alan:

I do agree w/ you about the economy and gas.

but if this product that you have is such a hit why not tell your friends to get it and pass the word around. if this product was this impressive it would have blown up like wildfire! Example, the $400 buck msn rebate that gave CA residents $400 for free thru bestbuy.... that deal was soo big that it was on the news before ms lawyers closed the rebate down.... so the way i look at it is if it's good then we would all know about it.

The way I look at it is if i buy a trd header and it was "a piece of junk" then i'd let everyone know that is indeed a piece of junk and should not waste any money on it. If indeed the trd header was "a great product" that indeed did work then i'd make sure i let everyone of this. friends help eachother out w/ valid information so the next person doesn't get screwed and or can benefit from it

now looking at your response all you show is the basic installation with no proof that this product does work to its advertising. so does this product work? chris and the rest of the members here would like to know if it really does work.

fyi, i'm not flaming you at all... just trying to make sure that nobody gets screwed from some of the products out there... we all get screwed once in awhile but as friends we gotta watch out eachother! :eek:

ravencr

Good info Haveblue! I've got to reread and figure everything out, and I highly appreciate your comments for us all. Good times, I also agree with you, so I'm going to try it soon and be the second test dummy for everyones benefit. I've been testing my gas mileage for the last day and will know what I got on my last tank of gas as a baseline, but I'm going to do it for the next three tanks too to get a good average baseline. Then I'll install it, and see what happens.

Chris

HaveBlue

No offense, but here's what I have to say:

MSN offered the $400 rebate. It came with a 3 year contract with MSN @ 21.95/month. This means that over the course of 3 years, you pay a total of $790.20. And, although you've received a $400 "rebate", you had to shell out almost $800.

Next, I have spread the word about the atomizer. But, as seen here, it tends to get flamed, dismissed, and bashed. I've mentioned it here three seperate occasions. I've also mentioned it a couple times on ODW, EscortRacing and a few other places.

Good Times, have you read the whole thread? On the two lenghty responses I have posted, I have said that it works. I have also given great detail as to my results (see first page of thread). I have listed my average economy as wells as what was being used at the time in conjunction with the Atomizer to acheive those results. I, personally, cannot guarantee that the product will work for you. The reason I cannot guarantee this is because I DO NOT SELL THEM! A company called Wyoming Instruments sells them. They can guaranty that it will work for you. And if it does not work for you, they will give you a refund for the unit within 60 days of the initial purchase.
The fact is, I have spread the word.

Chris-
Good idea about the baseline. I did the same thing. I setup an Excel spreadsheet to keep in all my vehicles to keep track of date, odometer reading, trip meter reading, gallons used, octane used, price per gallon, total cost, where the fuel was purchased and what kind of driving was done. I also make side notes as to what was installed before or during that tank of fuel. I can e-mail you my spreadsheet if you'd like.
I ran a few baselines myself for about 2 months. I calculated level highway (from Denver to Colorado Springs), uphill highway (from Denver to Vail), city only (from home to downtown Denver and back), and combination city/highway. I don't have those figures here, but I'll bring my notes to work tomorrow and post the "before Atomizer" listings.

Once again, if you have any questions, feel free to ask me.

Good Times

okay a side note on the msn thing...

there was a flaw on the rebate where CA residents didn't have the binding contract to use their service... which meant that we could use the rebate and then cancel the service and keep the rebate... it was a flaw that was apparently missed by the lawyers for about 3 months... MS only realized it after they noticed alot of the CA residents cancelling out on their service... now their contract has been revised and you can't do it anymore... so for those who got the freebie 400 bucks from Mr gates, sweet!

haveblue:

as for your detailed results... I will stay reserved as to how valid those results are. Indeed they do show significant gains, until we can get a more populated result, I will have to hold my judgements aside and wait and see how this works out. btw, by using this product (assuming that you still are) did you notice any significant power loss/gain? Hopefully chris will be able to test his vehicle and produce similar results. I feel the that the more results we can provide, the easier it will be TO convince the other members that there are products out there that will help the mpg.

ravencr

Hey Haveblue,

I would love to get a copy of that spreadsheet. Here's my email address: chrisrademacher@fastmail.fm

Thanks for everything, and hopefully I'll get the same results, too!

Chris