22RE Tech Question - Timing Chain
06-23-2005, 10:04 PM
#1
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22RE Tech Question - Timing Chain
Yotatech:
In the future, I plan to replace my timing chain, guides, gear, tensioners, and timing cover. I've heard it is necessary to remove the head, but in the interest of simplicity (Well, as simple as replacing a timing chain can be...)I would like to attempt to replace the chain/assorted parts with head on.
I have heard from a fellow who had an '88 22RE 4Runner who did a head-on timing chain replacement. He did many other modifications also, like a TRD cam, headers, and eventually he did a 20R head swap, so I trust his experience. Does anyone else know if I actually could replace the chain and such without removing the head? Any extra info would be greatly appreciated.
Donny
In the future, I plan to replace my timing chain, guides, gear, tensioners, and timing cover. I've heard it is necessary to remove the head, but in the interest of simplicity (Well, as simple as replacing a timing chain can be...)I would like to attempt to replace the chain/assorted parts with head on.
I have heard from a fellow who had an '88 22RE 4Runner who did a head-on timing chain replacement. He did many other modifications also, like a TRD cam, headers, and eventually he did a 20R head swap, so I trust his experience. Does anyone else know if I actually could replace the chain and such without removing the head? Any extra info would be greatly appreciated.
Donny
06-23-2005, 11:23 PM
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Thanks Jim. I see you on here all the time, and you always have a good post. Belated congratulations on the birth of your daughter. I bet being a father is wonderful.
But you say yes, it's possible? Because removing the head would be an enormous hassle that I don't need (Or would it?). Do you possibly have a source of pictures/detailed instructions on how to do it exactly, or are you gonna just wing it?
Donny
But you say yes, it's possible? Because removing the head would be an enormous hassle that I don't need (Or would it?). Do you possibly have a source of pictures/detailed instructions on how to do it exactly, or are you gonna just wing it?
Donny
06-24-2005, 04:35 AM
#4
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We did it on our 85 22RE. We removed the front cover and also lowered the front of the oil pan slightly
If you are doing the cam, you might as well pull the head. Since you have to remove the head bolts, you have maybe a 33% chance of a head gasket leak when done.
If you are doing the cam, you might as well pull the head. Since you have to remove the head bolts, you have maybe a 33% chance of a head gasket leak when done.
06-24-2005, 12:41 PM
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yes, you can do it without removing the head without any problem (i did and know many others who have). like said above, though, if you are replacing the cam, you might as well pull the head and replace the headgasket.
anyway, here is a link to a great write up on doing it without pulling the head:
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...ingChain.shtml
also, i highly, highly, highly recommend using engnbldr's kit with the steel backed driver's side guide (better quality kit than another common steel-backed guide kit from another vendor who shall remain nameless for about half the price)...
www.engnbldr.com
anyway, here is a link to a great write up on doing it without pulling the head:
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...ingChain.shtml
also, i highly, highly, highly recommend using engnbldr's kit with the steel backed driver's side guide (better quality kit than another common steel-backed guide kit from another vendor who shall remain nameless for about half the price)...
www.engnbldr.com
06-24-2005, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota
yes, you can do it without removing the head without any problem (i did and know many others who have). like said above, though, if you are replacing the cam, you might as well pull the head and replace the headgasket.
anyway, here is a link to a great write up on doing it without pulling the head:
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...ingChain.shtml
also, i highly, highly, highly recommend using engnbldr's kit with the steel backed driver's side guide (better quality kit than another common steel-backed guide kit from another vendor who shall remain nameless for about half the price)...
www.engnbldr.com
anyway, here is a link to a great write up on doing it without pulling the head:
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...ingChain.shtml
also, i highly, highly, highly recommend using engnbldr's kit with the steel backed driver's side guide (better quality kit than another common steel-backed guide kit from another vendor who shall remain nameless for about half the price)...
www.engnbldr.com
engnbldr has good stuff, but only offers 1 side of the kit..... im paranoid, and want both metal backed guides when i do mine...... what i will end up doing is get engnbldrs standard kit, and then buy the guides only from doa or lce
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06-25-2005, 01:30 AM
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Yes that seems like the best, most secure way to do it to me, also. I am paranoid as well, and I want to run the pistons out of this motor, hopefully till 350000 or higher, and if I can find both left and right metal guides I will be a whole lot more faithful in my trucks ability to last me for as long as I want it too, respectively.
06-25-2005, 05:50 AM
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there's no need to have metal on the passenger's side...all the tension/tendency-to-flap-around on the chain is on the driver's side (because that's the side the crankshaft sprocket pulls on). i have never heard of a passenger's side guide getting munched...though that certainly doesn't mean it's never happened.
someone on another forum who got a kit from LCE posted a question once about how to position the guides...everyone was like "what the heck are you talking about?" apparently, the guides had slots where you mount it to the front of the block...meaning you have to sort of guess at the right position and, even if you get it installed in the correct position, the potential exists for the guide to move. i don't know if this is generally true for LCE or was just an isolated case, though.
EBs guides have mounting holes, are the exact same shape and have the holes in teh exact same position as the stock guides. they can only be mounted in one position...the correct position.
anyway, i would definitely ask about this...do the guides have mounting slots (bad) or mounting holes (good)?
never known anyone to have any problem's with EB's kit (or any of EB's other products)...and it is WAYYYY cheaper (you get the entire kit--everything you need to do the job except RTV/oil/coolant for $60...both guides--steel backed on driver's side--gaskets, o-ring, sprockets, tensioner, etc.). and you get great customer service.
just my 2 cents.
someone on another forum who got a kit from LCE posted a question once about how to position the guides...everyone was like "what the heck are you talking about?" apparently, the guides had slots where you mount it to the front of the block...meaning you have to sort of guess at the right position and, even if you get it installed in the correct position, the potential exists for the guide to move. i don't know if this is generally true for LCE or was just an isolated case, though.
EBs guides have mounting holes, are the exact same shape and have the holes in teh exact same position as the stock guides. they can only be mounted in one position...the correct position.
anyway, i would definitely ask about this...do the guides have mounting slots (bad) or mounting holes (good)?
never known anyone to have any problem's with EB's kit (or any of EB's other products)...and it is WAYYYY cheaper (you get the entire kit--everything you need to do the job except RTV/oil/coolant for $60...both guides--steel backed on driver's side--gaskets, o-ring, sprockets, tensioner, etc.). and you get great customer service.
just my 2 cents.
Last edited by LittleRedToyota; 06-25-2005 at 05:55 AM.
06-25-2005, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota
there's no need to have metal on the passenger's side...all the tension/tendency-to-flap-around on the chain is on the driver's side (because that's the side the crankshaft sprocket pulls on). i have never heard of a passenger's side guide getting munched...though that certainly doesn't mean it's never happened.
no doubt EB has great service...
if you read my thread on upgraded timing chain guides SEVERAL people have had the pass side fail.... in THEORY the drivers side one fails first, but there have been cases of just the pass side one failing.... thus thats why i am paranoid about it.... DOA also offers them....
as far as defect for the lce one, the holes are elongated, jsut liek the stock ones to allow some movement....... even the toyota fsm pics i have dictate that, and so does the spare engine i have sitting in the garage......
06-25-2005, 10:33 AM
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I went with LCEs dual chain set up with the metal guides.I figured while I was there Id do a performance head and cam at the same time and save some teardown time.The stock set up was just starting to rattle and I didnt want ay further damage.I was amazed that at 157k miles I could see the hone marks in the cylinders as if the motor was new!!
Ive been very happy with it all and the added performance is nice also.
Ive been very happy with it all and the added performance is nice also.
06-25-2005, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jimabena74
if you read my thread on upgraded timing chain guides SEVERAL people have had the pass side fail....
even the toyota fsm pics i have dictate that, and so does the spare engine i have sitting in the garage......
i still have my oem pass side guide...the bottom hole is *very slightly* elongated, but the top is not...and, the bottom hole is elongated along the axis with the top hole, so it would not allow the elongation to allow any variation in mounting position (it would allow for a slight variation in the position of the bottom hole in teh block)..
i don't still have the pieces of my driver's side OEM guide, but i am almost positive both of those holes were not elongated...and i am sure that there was no possible variation in position when i mounted EBs guide.
must be a difference in years or something...
at any rate, sounds like the one you got from LCE matched your OEM ones, so sounds good.
06-25-2005, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota
i did read it...interesting...still not convinced you need steel on the pass. side (would be interested to know how many of them failed after the driver's side and then the owner ignored the tell-tale rattle), but, what the hey, it can't hurt...
strange...my fsm shows round holes...
i still have my oem pass side guide...the bottom hole is *very slightly* elongated, but the top is not...and, the bottom hole is elongated along the axis with the top hole, so it would not allow the elongation to allow any variation in mounting position (it would allow for a slight variation in the position of the bottom hole in teh block)..
i don't still have the pieces of my driver's side OEM guide, but i am almost positive both of those holes were not elongated...and i am sure that there was no possible variation in position when i mounted EBs guide.
must be a difference in years or something...
at any rate, sounds like the one you got from LCE matched your OEM ones, so sounds good.
strange...my fsm shows round holes...
i still have my oem pass side guide...the bottom hole is *very slightly* elongated, but the top is not...and, the bottom hole is elongated along the axis with the top hole, so it would not allow the elongation to allow any variation in mounting position (it would allow for a slight variation in the position of the bottom hole in teh block)..
i don't still have the pieces of my driver's side OEM guide, but i am almost positive both of those holes were not elongated...and i am sure that there was no possible variation in position when i mounted EBs guide.
must be a difference in years or something...
at any rate, sounds like the one you got from LCE matched your OEM ones, so sounds good.
oh, i havent gotten any yet from anyone, but i did think i researched it pretty thoroughly.... i even contacted all of them and asked questions... i beleive i posted what they sent back to me... if i didn't i have the emails saved.....
06-27-2005, 07:21 AM
#14
[QUOTE=LittleRedToyota]i did read it...interesting...still not convinced you need steel on the pass. side (would be interested to know how many of them failed after the driver's side and then the owner ignored the tell-tale rattle), but, what the hey, it can't hurt...
__________________________________________________ ___________
>>>*Morning!
*Well, here is the story......
Several years ago I bought some 20R steel backed guides and cut them down to convert them to the later 22RE design. It worked fine but was time consuming and I didn't like the chips and smoke in my face from the chop saw. Remaking them by hand was a PIA, frankly. I was using the tooling in my race car shop which is more designed for roll bar tubing than cutting up guides. Plus they were selling pretty good, so I was working evenings to keep up, and it was cutting into my TV time.
One day the wife yelled at me because chips and dust was all over the #43 stock car, and it was her job to keep it clean and shiny. *Needless to say...That ended that....So I bought a few sets from other suppliers but that got expensive quickly.
I just contracted to have the guides ready-made. Partly because I was lazy and partly because it was cheaper than the way I was doing it...*LOTS cheaper!
I found out later there was about 30 other guys with the same ideas at about the same time, a couple of other brands even beat us to market by a few weeks which just frosted my hide.
Engineering was done, and the result was just the driver's side guardrail. The reason was simple, it has just one function. It protects the timing cover from damage, and there is a coolant jacket right there.
If the cover gets cut, coolant enters the oil and the entire engine is lost.
In normal conditions, even the nylon style guides won't break. They break because either something goes wrong in the tensioner assembly, or the whole assembly just gets tired and worn. This increases contact and THEN the driver's side guide breaks. The result can be catastrophic.
When I see the passenger side guide fail first, I normally find the tensioner face and passenger side guide seriously eroded. This tells me that the tensioner arm was not operating properly, the result will be very rapid wear.
When we see a rare case of very early failure of a new part, nearly always the signs of an inoperative tensioner are there. The causes are from overtorque of the tensioner holdown bolts (12 ft lbs is the spec we use) or the wrong top oil pump holddown bolts protruding and jamming the arm. Dirt, debris, excess silicone are another reason, the tensioner body is debris sensitive, so keep the install as clean as possible.
The other theory is that the passenger side should be steel-backed, also. My personal feelings are that this does no harm, but has no effect on durability. In the event of a problem, the assembly will need to be replaced anyway. It isn't the guides that are the concern, for what little my opinion is worth. So I say, if it's in the budget, go for it! *Doesn't hurt a thing, and actually, since the idea is popular, I have been trying (with little success) to get engineering to produce the passenger side.
But so far they tell me there doesn't seem to be a market or need since the engine is now 10-20 years old...*LOL**...(I wonder how many MILLION of these engines are still running..?)
Oh, well...*What do I know?......*EB
__________________________________________________ ___________
>>>*Morning!
*Well, here is the story......
Several years ago I bought some 20R steel backed guides and cut them down to convert them to the later 22RE design. It worked fine but was time consuming and I didn't like the chips and smoke in my face from the chop saw. Remaking them by hand was a PIA, frankly. I was using the tooling in my race car shop which is more designed for roll bar tubing than cutting up guides. Plus they were selling pretty good, so I was working evenings to keep up, and it was cutting into my TV time.
One day the wife yelled at me because chips and dust was all over the #43 stock car, and it was her job to keep it clean and shiny. *Needless to say...That ended that....So I bought a few sets from other suppliers but that got expensive quickly.
I just contracted to have the guides ready-made. Partly because I was lazy and partly because it was cheaper than the way I was doing it...*LOTS cheaper!
I found out later there was about 30 other guys with the same ideas at about the same time, a couple of other brands even beat us to market by a few weeks which just frosted my hide.
Engineering was done, and the result was just the driver's side guardrail. The reason was simple, it has just one function. It protects the timing cover from damage, and there is a coolant jacket right there.
If the cover gets cut, coolant enters the oil and the entire engine is lost.
In normal conditions, even the nylon style guides won't break. They break because either something goes wrong in the tensioner assembly, or the whole assembly just gets tired and worn. This increases contact and THEN the driver's side guide breaks. The result can be catastrophic.
When I see the passenger side guide fail first, I normally find the tensioner face and passenger side guide seriously eroded. This tells me that the tensioner arm was not operating properly, the result will be very rapid wear.
When we see a rare case of very early failure of a new part, nearly always the signs of an inoperative tensioner are there. The causes are from overtorque of the tensioner holdown bolts (12 ft lbs is the spec we use) or the wrong top oil pump holddown bolts protruding and jamming the arm. Dirt, debris, excess silicone are another reason, the tensioner body is debris sensitive, so keep the install as clean as possible.
The other theory is that the passenger side should be steel-backed, also. My personal feelings are that this does no harm, but has no effect on durability. In the event of a problem, the assembly will need to be replaced anyway. It isn't the guides that are the concern, for what little my opinion is worth. So I say, if it's in the budget, go for it! *Doesn't hurt a thing, and actually, since the idea is popular, I have been trying (with little success) to get engineering to produce the passenger side.
But so far they tell me there doesn't seem to be a market or need since the engine is now 10-20 years old...*LOL**...(I wonder how many MILLION of these engines are still running..?)
Oh, well...*What do I know?......*EB
06-27-2005, 09:54 AM
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cool...i learned something new...i always check the driver's side guide when i have the valve cover off, but never really pay much attention to the passenger's side...now i know better.
still curious about the slots versus holes thing...
still curious about the slots versus holes thing...
06-27-2005, 09:26 PM
#17
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Wow guys... Thanks. Engnbldr, thats good posting. Yea im gonna look and find out if the guides have slots or holes... Slots would make the install that much more painful.
I'll post with my findings.
Donny
I'll post with my findings.
Donny
06-27-2005, 10:30 PM
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http://209.250.27.45/m1webgear/Produ...artRevisionID=
LCE guides only: http://209.250.27.45/m1webgear/Produ...artRevisionID=
http://www.doaracingengines.com/page13/page13.html
pic of jsut doa guides, that price is on anotehr site though and is inaccurate: http://www.off-road.com/toyota/reviews/doaguides/
LCE guides only: http://209.250.27.45/m1webgear/Produ...artRevisionID=
http://www.doaracingengines.com/page13/page13.html
pic of jsut doa guides, that price is on anotehr site though and is inaccurate: http://www.off-road.com/toyota/reviews/doaguides/
