Timing chain length?

my-4x4 · 02-07-2009, 12:45 AM

I'm currently changing my timing chain due to worn guide. I bought my kit from NAPA and I counted the links and the original had 49 links and the new one had 48 links....wtf is going on here?

The new one is on the left side

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my-4x4 · 02-07-2009, 12:51 AM

I need to get some sleep its 2 A.M. here, and I've been working on this timing chain for around 12 hours today (while watching my son, makes it difficult to work

)

So I will check on this thread in the morning, I would appreciate any help I can get.

BTW I have a 1987 22R 4wd 2.4L 2366cc SOHC

874runnersr5 · 02-07-2009, 02:07 AM

hmm, i wouldnt try to run it with that.. seems risky.
I told you to order from ted at engnbldr!!
he makes amazing after market parts for cheap

abecedarian · 02-07-2009, 06:42 AM

looking closely at the pic, the new chain is two links shorter than the old.
Early 22r's had a 98 link chain and later ~85 up have a 96 link chain.
Maybe you don't have the original engine?

desconhecido · 02-07-2009, 09:37 AM

Look here:http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/ar119838.htm
for a discussion of the differences between the 84 and earlier engines and the 85 and later. The earlier engines had greater deck height, which I assume is the distance between the crank center line and the top of the block. Also, it appears that there are differences in the mounting hole spacing for the chain guides between the blocks. The set that you bought from NAPA is for the later blocks and the chain that was installed is for the earlier. Comparing the guides, new to old, may give you a clue as to whether you have an 84 or earlier block or whether someone installed the wrong chain. Also, the timing covers are different and the oil pumps are different.

I haven't been looking for earlier length timing sets as I don't have one of those engines. But, while traveling along the innertubes super highway I recall seeing just one vendor advertising the earlier style timing set: John's foreign engines http://22re.com/

So, figure out what you've got and get the correct set. Worse comes to worst, you might measure the timing cover on your engine and go to NAPA and measure a timing cover for the 87 engine. THe earlier timing cover should be about 1/4 shorter.

Edit: I just checked engnbldr.com and they have the parts for the earlier engines as well. All reports are that they're very helpful and I'd bet an email to them would get you the dimensions of the timing covers for the two different engines. Good luck with it,

abecedarian · 02-07-2009, 10:30 AM

@ desconhecido: you're saying pretty much what I said but using more words.

Sometime during '84 and formally declared as "'85" (it was a running change, and as far as I can determine, some 85's will have the 84 configuration), Toyota decided to shorten the deck height (the "distance between the centerline of the cranshaft and where the block meets the head") and make the centerline of the cam closer to the deck as well, thus necessitating the shorter timing chain... probably to make possible some modifications to the combustion chamber.

Being that engine in question is in an 86 chassis, it's possible an earlier engine was swapped in by a previous owner for whatever reason, blown HG, etc....

For the most part, even the pre-85 engines (22r from a truck, not necessarily including the Celica, though some of them can be swapped in as well) can be substituted for the later engines (the differences are mostly internal, which the cam chain would be considered "internal").

Regardless of what the year of the truck is, count the chain links and tell your vendor how many. Like I said, the chain you took off the truck is 2 links longer than the one they supplied for you. That supports my opinion that your engine is actually off of an earlier engine.

We don't need to get too technical here, in spite of the fact we have gone technical...
... but if the chain they gave you is not the same as the chain you asked for, get the chain for the earlier engine and compare that to what you have.

desconhecido · 02-07-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abecedarian

@ desconhecido: you're saying pretty much what I said but using more words.

Yeah, I know. I was just going into more detail because we don't know whether it's a "tall" engine or whether someone put a 96 link chain in a "short" engine. Depending on how it was installed, I'll bet that a later model engine with a 96 link chain would run -- probably quite well though the cam might advance a little at higher rpm. Might be a tad noisy, too.

My wag is that if he's got an early block that he won't be able to get the 94 link chain on it as it's about 1/2 shorter than the 96. But, I've never tried such a thing. So, I think the first step for him to sort out this issue is to make an accurate determination of what engine he has.

I apologize if I gave the impression that I was trying to correct anything you wrote -- I wasn't.

abecedarian · 02-07-2009, 11:22 AM

That's perfectly fine. No offense taken.

I appreciate anyone that corrects a mistake I make or can better clarify what I was trying to say.

my-4x4 · 02-09-2009, 09:15 PM

Hey thanks alot, I've been working alot lately the military has me by the balls, and when they say "jump" I'm supposed to say "how high"

I just want to comment on both of you guys, you are a wealth of knowledge in a world of, for the lack of better words, lazy/inexperienced people. Thanks alot

Derek

abecedarian · 02-09-2009, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by my-4x4

Hey thanks alot, I've been working alot lately the military has me by the balls, and when they say "jump" I'm supposed to say "how high"

I just want to comment on both of you guys, you are a wealth of knowledge in a world of, for the lack of better words, lazy/inexperienced people. Thanks alot

Derek

I thought that in the military, you would already be in the air and didn't even have to ask how much higher they need you to go.... since that should've been in your papers.

Honestly, can't say much about the rest of the people around here, but I appreciate what you are doing for our country. Whether you personally agree with it or not, you're doing it. At worse, you're following orders and at best you're doing what's right.
Love ya.

stagger_lee · 02-09-2009, 09:53 PM

To the best of my knowledge 9/84 is when deck height changed. I have been searching for a link to decode engine stamp with no luck so far. I am running into similar problems with rebuilding a block and figuring out what year it really was manufactured.

As far I have read the "laser block", is 9/84 and newer, is the "short" engine, which also doesn't have enough room for a double chain conversion. Maybe that will help you identify manufacturer date. If I am wrong, I stand corrected.

my-4x4 · 02-09-2009, 10:00 PM

abecedarian I really do appreciate your comment.

Also if anybody knows where exactly to find the actual year of a motor can you let me know....thus far I know its 81-84 but yet to find the stamp with serial etc. The only markings I could find was the 11411-350 20 (20 is smaller than rest of numbers) I found that number on the drivers side right below the exhaust manifold

stagger_lee · 02-09-2009, 10:05 PM

Your in the right place. Block is stamped just to the front of that number between the dipstick on a raised pad.

my-4x4 · 02-09-2009, 10:08 PM

oh ok....I found that, and I'll have a hell of a time getting to it, but thanks, what would be best option for cleaning it up? Parts cleaner?

Also do you know any site where you can enter in your serial number to find out info?

stagger_lee · 02-09-2009, 10:12 PM

I have been searching for a site with no luck. I have a block that I bought from a junkyard that is real clean, I suspect it to be an 81-84, but My luck I order everything and it turns out to be a newer one. There is no laser pop out though. I will keep looking, if you find something PM me pleeassee! I will do the same. I called Toyota and they laughed at me.

Wire brush to clean up, with brake parts cleaner?

abecedarian · 02-09-2009, 10:25 PM

hate to make naught of what's been posted and if it seems repititious...
... but you removed a chain from an engine with the purpose of replacing it.....
Regardless of whatever- you need a chain that matches what you removed. Count the links... is what I'd suggest. Knowing 98 or 96 links tells you (for the most part) which engine you have: <85 or >85 (85 has the possibility of being either).

my-4x4 · 02-09-2009, 10:26 PM

Alrighty I'll PM you if I find anything out. I have an 81-84 apparently so I can send you pics if you need anything specific to compare to. I'm getting off here for a few hours, but I'll check again, and if you need i'll pm you the pics. Thanks

**DeathCougar** · 02-09-2009, 10:31 PM

The pics you sent me verify that you indeed have an 81-84 Engine.

What happened here is the previous owner before him swapped in an early engine, so getting parts for an 87 engine won't work.

Another mystery solved. Cougar....AWAY!!!!

stagger_lee · 02-09-2009, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abecedarian

hate to make naught of what's been posted and if it seems repititious...
... but you removed a chain from an engine with the purpose of replacing it.....
Regardless of whatever- you need a chain that matches what you removed. Count the links... is what I'd suggest. Knowing 98 or 96 links tells you (for the most part) which engine you have: <85 or >85 (85 has the possibility of being either).

You know me, just changing the subject, thread jacking and fishing for that stamp code website. Just trying to make things a bit more difficult. Note to self, "Replace old timing chain with new one with same number of links." Got it.

Luv ya Abe.

abecedarian · 02-09-2009, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stagger_lee

You know me, just changing the subject, thread jacking and fishing for that stamp code website. Just trying to make things a bit more difficult. Note to self, "Replace old timing chain with new one with same number of links." Got it.

Luv ya Abe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathCougar

The pics you sent me verify that you indeed have an 81-84 Engine.

What happened here is the previous owner before him swapped in an early engine, so getting parts for an 87 engine won't work.

Another mystery solved. Cougar....AWAY!!!!

You're both welcome!

my-4x4 · 02-10-2009, 01:41 AM

well...thanks everybody for the help/info

**DeathCougar** · 02-10-2009, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abecedarian

You're both welcome!

Welcome for what? I figured this out a few days ago via PM

engnbldr · 02-12-2009, 10:24 AM

*Morning!
Wow, I actually got this site open on my dialup system! Of course it took three cups of coffee but that's ok.

There sure is a lot of confusion on the year changes but I see lots of you have it right.

I gave up on the serial numbers, now I just use my tape measure, or look closely at the side of the block for that bow tie shaped pad on the 1985 and later.

The early block is 11.280" tall, the late one is 11.090" tall. 1981 to 1984 is early, 1985 and up is late but watch out for the 20R, those pop up regularly.

It seems that these engines have been swapped around, changed over, had things bolted on that don't belong, on and on and on. But the tape measure doesn't lie.

Between the early and late the only things that interchange for sure are the rod bearing inserts, the head gasket, and the freeze plugs.

Yes, early is 98 link, put one of those chains on a late engine and start it and she will let you know...Late is 96 link. Even more fun is the 1981 to 1982 is a dual full roller, all the rest are single. But don't count on that, hundreds of the very early engines have been converted to the dual roller, and lots of late engines have been converted to the aftermarket dual $$etup...

Yep. Tape measure, works every time....*EB

02-07-2009, 12:51 AM	#2 (permalink)
my-4x4 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 101	I need to get some sleep its 2 A.M. here, and I've been working on this timing chain for around 12 hours today (while watching my son, makes it difficult to work ) So I will check on this thread in the morning, I would appreciate any help I can get. BTW I have a 1987 22R 4wd 2.4L 2366cc SOHC __________________ -'87 4x4 22r fairly stock. -Thrush glasspack -Hurculined cab floor -SR5 Gauge swap -'84 4x4 22r STOCK -32x11.5 BFG M/T -Magnaflow exhaust USAF Confinement Officer Last edited by my-4x4; 02-07-2009 at 12:52 AM.

02-07-2009, 02:07 AM	#3 (permalink)
874runnersr5 Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Calgary, AB Canaduh Posts: 2,784	hmm, i wouldnt try to run it with that.. seems risky. I told you to order from ted at engnbldr!! he makes amazing after market parts for cheap __________________ 87' 4runner Sr5 : 22re : 5spd : 32x11.5 BGF Km2 : Cragar 15x8 soft 8s : TG Rock Defense Front Bumper : Sirius radio : Optima Red Top : Pioneer system : Engnbldr tchain kit : Downey 3" leafs : Diff breather : Tube doors : Bikini Top Calgary Toyota Association I <3 my Toyota

02-07-2009, 09:37 AM	#5 (permalink)
desconhecido Registered User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 203	Look here:http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/ar119838.htm for a discussion of the differences between the 84 and earlier engines and the 85 and later. The earlier engines had greater deck height, which I assume is the distance between the crank center line and the top of the block. Also, it appears that there are differences in the mounting hole spacing for the chain guides between the blocks. The set that you bought from NAPA is for the later blocks and the chain that was installed is for the earlier. Comparing the guides, new to old, may give you a clue as to whether you have an 84 or earlier block or whether someone installed the wrong chain. Also, the timing covers are different and the oil pumps are different. I haven't been looking for earlier length timing sets as I don't have one of those engines. But, while traveling along the innertubes super highway I recall seeing just one vendor advertising the earlier style timing set: John's foreign engines http://22re.com/ So, figure out what you've got and get the correct set. Worse comes to worst, you might measure the timing cover on your engine and go to NAPA and measure a timing cover for the 87 engine. THe earlier timing cover should be about 1/4 shorter. Edit: I just checked engnbldr.com and they have the parts for the earlier engines as well. All reports are that they're very helpful and I'd bet an email to them would get you the dimensions of the timing covers for the two different engines. Good luck with it, Last edited by desconhecido; 02-07-2009 at 09:41 AM.

02-09-2009, 09:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
my-4x4 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 101	Hey thanks alot, I've been working alot lately the military has me by the balls, and when they say "jump" I'm supposed to say "how high" I just want to comment on both of you guys, you are a wealth of knowledge in a world of, for the lack of better words, lazy/inexperienced people. Thanks alot Derek __________________ -'87 4x4 22r fairly stock. -Thrush glasspack -Hurculined cab floor -SR5 Gauge swap -'84 4x4 22r STOCK -32x11.5 BFG M/T -Magnaflow exhaust USAF Confinement Officer Last edited by my-4x4; 02-09-2009 at 09:16 PM.

02-09-2009, 10:00 PM	#12 (permalink)
my-4x4 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 101	abecedarian I really do appreciate your comment. Also if anybody knows where exactly to find the actual year of a motor can you let me know....thus far I know its 81-84 but yet to find the stamp with serial etc. The only markings I could find was the 11411-350 20 (20 is smaller than rest of numbers) I found that number on the drivers side right below the exhaust manifold __________________ -'87 4x4 22r fairly stock. -Thrush glasspack -Hurculined cab floor -SR5 Gauge swap -'84 4x4 22r STOCK -32x11.5 BFG M/T -Magnaflow exhaust USAF Confinement Officer

02-09-2009, 10:08 PM	#14 (permalink)
my-4x4 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 101	oh ok....I found that, and I'll have a hell of a time getting to it, but thanks, what would be best option for cleaning it up? Parts cleaner? Also do you know any site where you can enter in your serial number to find out info? __________________ -'87 4x4 22r fairly stock. -Thrush glasspack -Hurculined cab floor -SR5 Gauge swap -'84 4x4 22r STOCK -32x11.5 BFG M/T -Magnaflow exhaust USAF Confinement Officer

02-09-2009, 10:26 PM	#17 (permalink)
my-4x4 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 101	Alrighty I'll PM you if I find anything out. I have an 81-84 apparently so I can send you pics if you need anything specific to compare to. I'm getting off here for a few hours, but I'll check again, and if you need i'll pm you the pics. Thanks __________________ -'87 4x4 22r fairly stock. -Thrush glasspack -Hurculined cab floor -SR5 Gauge swap -'84 4x4 22r STOCK -32x11.5 BFG M/T -Magnaflow exhaust USAF Confinement Officer

02-10-2009, 01:41 AM	#21 (permalink)
my-4x4 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 101	well...thanks everybody for the help/info __________________ -'87 4x4 22r fairly stock. -Thrush glasspack -Hurculined cab floor -SR5 Gauge swap -'84 4x4 22r STOCK -32x11.5 BFG M/T -Magnaflow exhaust USAF Confinement Officer

02-12-2009, 10:24 AM	#23 (permalink)
engnbldr Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: oregon Posts: 72	Morning! Wow, I actually got this site open on my dialup system! Of course it took three cups of coffee but that's ok. There sure is a lot of confusion on the year changes but I see lots of you have it right. I gave up on the serial numbers, now I just use my tape measure, or look closely at the side of the block for that bow tie shaped pad on the 1985 and later. The early block is 11.280" tall, the late one is 11.090" tall. 1981 to 1984 is early, 1985 and up is late but watch out for the 20R, those pop up regularly. It seems that these engines have been swapped around, changed over, had things bolted on that don't belong, on and on and on. But the tape measure doesn't lie. Between the early and late the only things that interchange for sure are the rod bearing inserts, the head gasket, and the freeze plugs. Yes, early is 98 link, put one of those chains on a late engine and start it and she will let you know...Late is 96 link. Even more fun is the 1981 to 1982 is a dual full roller, all the rest are single. But don't count on that, hundreds of the very early engines have been converted to the dual roller, and lots of late engines have been converted to the aftermarket dual $$etup... Yep. Tape measure, works every time....EB

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