Spark Knock (preignition) with 93 octane and 0 degrees timing
04-20-2009, 05:38 AM
#43
Registered User
It is amazing that it was running. It looks like you had a part-diesel 3vze - I find it hard to imagine there was a spark happening in those plugs anymore. That's probably your pinging, right there.
I agree it does look like oil fouling, to epic proportions.
Has your veezy been using oil? Has there been blue smoke out the tailpipe? How's the compression? With deposits like that on the plugs, I don't hold out much hope for the O2 sensor, and probably the cat, either.
How many miles on those plugs?
If your compression numbers turn up fine, the oil's probably from bad (really bad) valve stem seals.
If the compression is low in those cyls, try pouring a small amount of engine oil into the cyls and see if the compression numbers improve significantly - that would point to rings as opposed to valves.
I'll be curious to hear what you find.
I agree it does look like oil fouling, to epic proportions.
Has your veezy been using oil? Has there been blue smoke out the tailpipe? How's the compression? With deposits like that on the plugs, I don't hold out much hope for the O2 sensor, and probably the cat, either.
How many miles on those plugs?
If your compression numbers turn up fine, the oil's probably from bad (really bad) valve stem seals.
If the compression is low in those cyls, try pouring a small amount of engine oil into the cyls and see if the compression numbers improve significantly - that would point to rings as opposed to valves.
I'll be curious to hear what you find.
04-20-2009, 06:29 AM
#44
Registered User
I'll give the prestone stuff a shot.
It would be curious to know, though - that my spark knock problem might be related to another problem I am having with burning p/s fluid. Someone I work with mentioned something about an engine that consumes oil will spark knock. I'm going to block off the two vacuum lines that run from the p/s idle up valve to the intake plenum, clean the spark plugs and see what becomes of it.
It would be curious to know, though - that my spark knock problem might be related to another problem I am having with burning p/s fluid. Someone I work with mentioned something about an engine that consumes oil will spark knock. I'm going to block off the two vacuum lines that run from the p/s idle up valve to the intake plenum, clean the spark plugs and see what becomes of it.
What happens when you disconnect those lines & plug the fittings now that you have new plugs?
I might consider doing another seafoam and/or water treatment, too. There could be deposits on the valves & piston head that will still cause hot spots/pre-ignition.
BTW, I thought only the 4 cyl had the p/s idle up valve - no???
Last edited by sb5walker; 04-20-2009 at 06:40 AM.
04-20-2009, 01:57 PM
#46
Registered User
Thread Starter
I was wondering what everyone's reactions to those pictures would be 
sb5walker: It doesn't really use oil that much, it oil smokes initially on startup and thats it. It doesn't even do it every day or every time i start it. Those plugs had about 10,000 miles on them. I didn't go into work today, so I didn't do a compression test. The 3.0 does have a p/s idle up valve just like the 4cyl. I did do some highway driving today and it did not ping nearly as bad as before cleaning the plugs - of course I only have the timing at 3 degrees btdc. I'll get new (cooler) plugs, and do another water treatment and advance the timing this weekend and see what that does. I wish I had a borescope to actually look down in the engine and see what it looked like
Kiroshu: yes, at first glance I did think there was coolant on the plugs, but it didn't have that sweet smell that ethelyne glycol has. Who knows - they're probably so fouled that I couldn't smell the coolant!
Next update will be compression test #'s and ummm, I might pull the 02 sensor & cat out and look/replace it. although I'm scared to because the bolts are so freakin rusted...
sb5walker: It doesn't really use oil that much, it oil smokes initially on startup and thats it. It doesn't even do it every day or every time i start it. Those plugs had about 10,000 miles on them. I didn't go into work today, so I didn't do a compression test. The 3.0 does have a p/s idle up valve just like the 4cyl. I did do some highway driving today and it did not ping nearly as bad as before cleaning the plugs - of course I only have the timing at 3 degrees btdc. I'll get new (cooler) plugs, and do another water treatment and advance the timing this weekend and see what that does. I wish I had a borescope to actually look down in the engine and see what it looked like
Kiroshu: yes, at first glance I did think there was coolant on the plugs, but it didn't have that sweet smell that ethelyne glycol has. Who knows - they're probably so fouled that I couldn't smell the coolant!
Next update will be compression test #'s and ummm, I might pull the 02 sensor & cat out and look/replace it. although I'm scared to because the bolts are so freakin rusted...
04-22-2009, 10:03 AM
#47
Registered User
Thread Starter
Compression test. I did this after driving around for a little while (about 3 miles to the auto parts store to get the tester) got back home, let the engine sit for about 5 min, and I did the drivers side (2,4,6) first. Took me about 30 minutes to do the whole engine.
Compression #'s are:
1. 183
2. 172
3. 183
4. 170
5. 175
6. 168
They don't seem too bad to me, but 1,3 and 5 are definatly over the 171psi that the FSM recommends, but they are within the 14psi range...
Oh - don't know if this has anything to do with anything - but the plugs were somewhat yellowish - kinda like they had been dusted in pollen.
Compression #'s are:
1. 183
2. 172
3. 183
4. 170
5. 175
6. 168
They don't seem too bad to me, but 1,3 and 5 are definatly over the 171psi that the FSM recommends, but they are within the 14psi range...
Oh - don't know if this has anything to do with anything - but the plugs were somewhat yellowish - kinda like they had been dusted in pollen.
Last edited by dieselloco427; 04-22-2009 at 10:06 AM. Reason: add info
04-22-2009, 10:28 AM
#48
Registered User
Interesting the low cyl is good old #6, stuffed back there where that infernal crossover pipe blows right side exhaust into the left side manifold - going the wrong way... That's the most common spot for head gasket failure.
And the next lowest are 4 and 2, respectively.
Question is, why is 6 low? Valves? Rings? Or is the head gasket leaking a little bit?
The other curious thing: the compression readings over the spec of a brand new motor. If those are accurate readings, the likely cause is the presence of significant deposits on the pistons or head/valves like those on your plugs, taking up space and increasing the compression ratio. If true, you ought to run your compression test after your seafoam/water treatment to see how that #6 is.
As to the pollen, did you pour injector cleaner into the tank? Are the P/S vacuum lines still attached?
And the next lowest are 4 and 2, respectively.
Question is, why is 6 low? Valves? Rings? Or is the head gasket leaking a little bit?
The other curious thing: the compression readings over the spec of a brand new motor. If those are accurate readings, the likely cause is the presence of significant deposits on the pistons or head/valves like those on your plugs, taking up space and increasing the compression ratio. If true, you ought to run your compression test after your seafoam/water treatment to see how that #6 is.
As to the pollen, did you pour injector cleaner into the tank? Are the P/S vacuum lines still attached?
04-22-2009, 10:49 AM
#49
Registered User
Thread Starter
lol! yeah good ol #6 - Thats the first thing I thought when I looked at all the readings "There goes the HG!!"
I'm going to run a water treatment here shortly and see what that does. And I guess I could pour a little oil into #6 to see if that raises the compression any.
Haven't done any injector cleaner - although I have been using the shell V-Power stuff with nitrogen... and P/S vacuum lines are still disconnected.
I'm going to run a water treatment here shortly and see what that does. And I guess I could pour a little oil into #6 to see if that raises the compression any.
Haven't done any injector cleaner - although I have been using the shell V-Power stuff with nitrogen... and P/S vacuum lines are still disconnected.
04-22-2009, 11:27 AM
#50
Contributing Member
lol! yeah good ol #6 - Thats the first thing I thought when I looked at all the readings "There goes the HG!!"
I'm going to run a water treatment here shortly and see what that does. And I guess I could pour a little oil into #6 to see if that raises the compression any.
Haven't done any injector cleaner - although I have been using the shell V-Power stuff with nitrogen... and P/S vacuum lines are still disconnected.
I'm going to run a water treatment here shortly and see what that does. And I guess I could pour a little oil into #6 to see if that raises the compression any.
Haven't done any injector cleaner - although I have been using the shell V-Power stuff with nitrogen... and P/S vacuum lines are still disconnected.
04-22-2009, 12:02 PM
#51
One simple yet kinda dumb and odd thing is there even an air filter in it!?!? You should def try seafoam if you haven't already.... that may help crud build-up.... those compression readings are not really engine threating.... so its kinda odd... i was sure there would be an issue with compression... did you do it your self? or take it somewhere....? cyls 1 and 3 seem a lil high though def carb deposits prob.... either way compression seems fine.... it really seems like a head gasket....but then it doesen't.... freakin weird....
04-22-2009, 12:25 PM
#52
Registered User
Very true - point taken. I should have said low(er); since I was thinking of the 15 psi difference between the low & high cyls, which is out of spec.
But 168 taken by itself would be an excellent reading for an older 3VZE - probably many of us are in the 150s.
It'll be interesting to see the readings after the attempt to clear out the carbon...
But 168 taken by itself would be an excellent reading for an older 3VZE - probably many of us are in the 150s.
It'll be interesting to see the readings after the attempt to clear out the carbon...
04-22-2009, 12:28 PM
#53
Registered User
Thread Starter
lol!! yep - there's an air filter in it
I just did some seafoam and checked the compression readings again:
I did the odds, put everything back together, run the engine to warm it back up and then did the evens
Before seafoam(from prev. post)
1. 185
2. 172
3. 183
4. 170
5. 175
6. 168
After Seafoam Treatment
1. 185
2. 168
3. 182
4. 162
5. 173
6. 170
So - I guess the seafoam did a little bit. It did smoke quite a bit, for about 2 minutes nice thick gray smoke
yeah kiroshu - these #'s have gotten me super confused too. I saw that low #6 reading and I immediatly thought HG... Now #4 is lower than #6 and #6 went up 2 pounds...
#1 is odd though, although I did find a spot on the plug wire where it is arcing so I don't know if that would make it super buit up with carbon. Doesn't seem to run rough though...
AHHHHHHHHHH X_x
It seems as if I'm at another dead end with this.
I just did some seafoam and checked the compression readings again:
I did the odds, put everything back together, run the engine to warm it back up and then did the evens
Before seafoam(from prev. post)
1. 185
2. 172
3. 183
4. 170
5. 175
6. 168
After Seafoam Treatment
1. 185
2. 168
3. 182
4. 162
5. 173
6. 170
So - I guess the seafoam did a little bit. It did smoke quite a bit, for about 2 minutes nice thick gray smoke
yeah kiroshu - these #'s have gotten me super confused too. I saw that low #6 reading and I immediatly thought HG... Now #4 is lower than #6 and #6 went up 2 pounds...
#1 is odd though, although I did find a spot on the plug wire where it is arcing so I don't know if that would make it super buit up with carbon. Doesn't seem to run rough though...
AHHHHHHHHHH X_x
It seems as if I'm at another dead end with this.
Last edited by dieselloco427; 04-22-2009 at 04:05 PM.
04-22-2009, 08:54 PM
#54
Registered User
It is a little scary that there's a 23 psi difference between your #1 and #4, but I wouldn't worry too much - yet. It's normal to get some variation in your compression readings, and the seafoam treatment might have loosened some gunk that could be partly fouling a valve seat or something like that. The readings might settle out after a few days of driving.
I would actually be most concerned with the high readings. I mean, a brand new motor is only supposed to have 171 psi. If your readings are accurate, there is likely a lot of carbon buildup in some of your cylinders. If it were me, I would try to blow that stuff out with water.
Here's one of the better techniques I've seen described for doing this:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116.../#post50824736
Noltz suggests using a whole gallon of water - normally I would say that sounds a little extreme, except in your motor's case maybe a little extreme is called for. Just BE CAREFUL! not to allow the motor to suck too much water too fast: you can hydro-lock your cylinder, and then bye-bye connecting rod. (you can do the same thing with seafoam, btw - seafoam users be warned) Noltz recommends taking 20 minutes to feed the gallon, and that sounds about right. Be sure to allow the motor to reach operating temp before you begin.
You might consider adding some isopropyl alcohol to the water: that will act as a wetting agent and help the water transfer heat better, plus it will add some cleaning action. Add maybe 10-20 percent alcohol. If you're using 70% drug store rubbing alcohol, use 3 or 4 parts water to one part alcohol. If you have 90% isopropyl, you can pour in a 16 oz bottle and fill the rest of your gallon with water. Using distilled water would be best.
Change the oil after water injection, since some of it can squeeze past the rings and you don't want to run a motor with water in the oil.
After the water treatment, assuming the motor is running well, I would just drive the truck for a week or so to let things settle out, and then re-test for compression and see where things stand.
That week might be a good time to use an injector cleaner. The one I like best is Red Line's SI-1 Complete Fuel System Cleaner - it's about the only product that still contains a sizable amount of polyether amine (PEA) - the super effective injector cleaner developed by Chevron that Chevron's own Techron doesn't even seem to contain anymore. You might get two bottles and use in two consecutive fill-ups.
Good luck!
I would actually be most concerned with the high readings. I mean, a brand new motor is only supposed to have 171 psi. If your readings are accurate, there is likely a lot of carbon buildup in some of your cylinders. If it were me, I would try to blow that stuff out with water.
Here's one of the better techniques I've seen described for doing this:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116.../#post50824736
Noltz suggests using a whole gallon of water - normally I would say that sounds a little extreme, except in your motor's case maybe a little extreme is called for. Just BE CAREFUL! not to allow the motor to suck too much water too fast: you can hydro-lock your cylinder, and then bye-bye connecting rod. (you can do the same thing with seafoam, btw - seafoam users be warned) Noltz recommends taking 20 minutes to feed the gallon, and that sounds about right. Be sure to allow the motor to reach operating temp before you begin.
You might consider adding some isopropyl alcohol to the water: that will act as a wetting agent and help the water transfer heat better, plus it will add some cleaning action. Add maybe 10-20 percent alcohol. If you're using 70% drug store rubbing alcohol, use 3 or 4 parts water to one part alcohol. If you have 90% isopropyl, you can pour in a 16 oz bottle and fill the rest of your gallon with water. Using distilled water would be best.
Change the oil after water injection, since some of it can squeeze past the rings and you don't want to run a motor with water in the oil.
After the water treatment, assuming the motor is running well, I would just drive the truck for a week or so to let things settle out, and then re-test for compression and see where things stand.
That week might be a good time to use an injector cleaner. The one I like best is Red Line's SI-1 Complete Fuel System Cleaner - it's about the only product that still contains a sizable amount of polyether amine (PEA) - the super effective injector cleaner developed by Chevron that Chevron's own Techron doesn't even seem to contain anymore. You might get two bottles and use in two consecutive fill-ups.
Good luck!
Last edited by sb5walker; 04-10-2011 at 12:46 PM.
04-23-2009, 05:26 PM
#56
Registered User
Thread Starter
OK!! I'm going to give the water a try again. All I did is take the brake booster hose off and spray water in it using a 8oz windex spray bottle... This time I'll use Noltz's method - with a little isypropyl alcohol.
That 185 psi reading does have me worried... I wouldn't be suprised if thats the cylinder I'm getting the ping from!
Kiroshu - could spark knock/high compression readings be caused by misadjusted valves? I suppose it could - if the exhaust valve is not opening enough or the intake is opening too much...
YotaTech ROCKS!!
That 185 psi reading does have me worried... I wouldn't be suprised if thats the cylinder I'm getting the ping from!
Kiroshu - could spark knock/high compression readings be caused by misadjusted valves? I suppose it could - if the exhaust valve is not opening enough or the intake is opening too much...
YotaTech ROCKS!!
04-23-2009, 06:00 PM
#57
Registered User
After the motor warms up and just before the water, I would pull the vac hose off the egr valve and plug the hose to keep the egr from injecting exhaust while you're injecting the water. There will be plenty of non-burning stuff in the cylinders already - no need to add more. (Just remember to reconnect it after.)
You also might consider briefly shutting off the water flow to allow the cylinders to get hot again, part way through the gallon. The shock of the cold water hitting the hot carbon is part of what removes it.
You also might consider briefly shutting off the water flow to allow the cylinders to get hot again, part way through the gallon. The shock of the cold water hitting the hot carbon is part of what removes it.
04-23-2009, 07:40 PM
#58
Valves adjst may help some what but i thought about it and i don't think it will cure the pinging.... the engine obviously only pings bad under load....so.... i know out of adjst valves or burnt valves can cause drivablitiy issues....spark knock is one thing.... have you checked ur cams? take your cyl head covers off and see if the cam lobes look scared or chipped....take pics this may be another issue....
04-25-2009, 05:44 PM
#60
Registered User
Thread Starter
TNRabbit - I'm assuming thats why you ended up rebuilding...Ran a mixed gallon of isypropyl alcohol and water through it today. Runs somewhat better - smoother acceleration, but still spark knocks. I've got 89 in the tank right now and 2 degrees of timing in it...
it did get up to 90 degrees here in norfolk today, so I had the A/C running which didn't help much.
I'm probably going to pull the plenum tomorrow and check the cams - and might as well check the knock sensor while I'm down there. or wait - is that under the intake manifold :/ ?
Might as well just rebuild this thing. Although technically it only has about 153,000 miles on a rebuild. Hmmmm....
