Rebuilt motor: White smoke and water in oil :(
10-30-2009, 07:16 AM
#61
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Hehe.. 
Snugged up the clamps last night... of course the ONLY HOSES I didn't replace start leaking... Yay.
Anyone have a good solution to rerouting the heater hoses (at firewall) so that they don't present such an obstacle in removing the valve cover? Real pain in the ass.
Snugged up the clamps last night... of course the ONLY HOSES I didn't replace start leaking... Yay.
Anyone have a good solution to rerouting the heater hoses (at firewall) so that they don't present such an obstacle in removing the valve cover? Real pain in the ass.
10-30-2009, 11:42 AM
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So heres what I did, I did a compression on my engine. I had 172,175,180,175. in AZ just yesterday (so maybe your comp readings are ok as long as U had the throttle open???) (the throttle needs to be open to let the eng. breath as you do the test), I hope mc knows that, readings will be 5 /10 points lower with it closed.
What do you think about my fuel mix? Is 11's (AFR) too rich for > 3500rpm or > 75% throttle? I am seeing this (sudden drop from mid 14's to 11's) under either condition... seems to explain my sooted up exhaust and what I consider ty performance (I don't feel a lot more power over 3500, thought this thing had a 6k fuel cut...)
Think I'm going to drive it as it and stay out of rich territory (e.g., it's a daily driver for the winter... get me from A to B.. slowly) and work on a MegaSquirt DIYPNP setup meanwhile (can be easily plugged in and out facilitating progress on a daily driver).
EDIT: Stayed in it till 5000rpm in 2nd gear on the way home today, AFR's just kept going down down down.. saw as low as 8 then decided to get out of the loud pedal due to being dangerously rich... Ugh.
Last edited by mcm375; 10-30-2009 at 04:55 PM.
10-30-2009, 05:45 PM
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Great picture, that little spot of green is an easy tell.
I am shocked, shocked, that others are coming up with compressions as high as 180. You always hold the throttle open for this test, you do want air in the cylinder after all.
Your mixture is going really way to rich, but you already knew that. The question is why? The contact wiper on the pot? It looks a little more complicated than a simple voltage divider.
No visible spatter on that weld. Tig?
Any time I build a motor, it gets 20 minutes or so of easy running at no load followed by easy driving for 1500 miles or so. But then, I use moly rings unless I can't get them, and the cylinders are finished quite smooth.
I am shocked, shocked, that others are coming up with compressions as high as 180. You always hold the throttle open for this test, you do want air in the cylinder after all.
Your mixture is going really way to rich, but you already knew that. The question is why? The contact wiper on the pot? It looks a little more complicated than a simple voltage divider.
No visible spatter on that weld. Tig?
Any time I build a motor, it gets 20 minutes or so of easy running at no load followed by easy driving for 1500 miles or so. But then, I use moly rings unless I can't get them, and the cylinders are finished quite smooth.
10-30-2009, 06:25 PM
#64
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Great picture, that little spot of green is an easy tell.
I am shocked, shocked, that others are coming up with compressions as high as 180. You always hold the throttle open for this test, you do want air in the cylinder after all.
Your mixture is going really way to rich, but you already knew that. The question is why? The contact wiper on the pot? It looks a little more complicated than a simple voltage divider.
No visible spatter on that weld. Tig?
Any time I build a motor, it gets 20 minutes or so of easy running at no load followed by easy driving for 1500 miles or so. But then, I use moly rings unless I can't get them, and the cylinders are finished quite smooth.
I am shocked, shocked, that others are coming up with compressions as high as 180. You always hold the throttle open for this test, you do want air in the cylinder after all.
Your mixture is going really way to rich, but you already knew that. The question is why? The contact wiper on the pot? It looks a little more complicated than a simple voltage divider.
No visible spatter on that weld. Tig?
Any time I build a motor, it gets 20 minutes or so of easy running at no load followed by easy driving for 1500 miles or so. But then, I use moly rings unless I can't get them, and the cylinders are finished quite smooth.
Yes that is a GTAW weld. Not real pretty but I had to build up a ton on the sides due to the crappy crimped bend in the tube (plus being on the inside of the bend) so I'll use that as an excuse hehe.
I really should make up some 2" exhaust piping all the way back from the collector.
10-30-2009, 06:41 PM
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It looks like we have some more things in common!
I Tig (GTAW) weld an aluminum robot chassis for high
school robotics competitions every year.
I am not one to move away from the factory fuel system,
but that is most likely just the oppression of the California
smog inspection, and not lack of interest on my part.
Eugene
I Tig (GTAW) weld an aluminum robot chassis for high
school robotics competitions every year.
I am not one to move away from the factory fuel system,
but that is most likely just the oppression of the California
smog inspection, and not lack of interest on my part.
Eugene
Believe the rich condition is due to AFM which tests funky. Am going to drive it easy and work on a MegaSquirt DIYPNP setup concurrently. Hoping it should just be a MAF+IAT install into the intake plumbing in addition to what sensory is already on the motor (Existing ECU plugs being physically compatible with one of the DIYPNP kits it is a quick swap back and forth).
Yes that is a GTAW weld. Not real pretty but I had to build up a ton on the sides due to the crappy crimped bend in the tube (plus being on the inside of the bend) so I'll use that as an excuse hehe.
I really should make up some 2" exhaust piping all the way back from the collector.
Yes that is a GTAW weld. Not real pretty but I had to build up a ton on the sides due to the crappy crimped bend in the tube (plus being on the inside of the bend) so I'll use that as an excuse hehe.
I really should make up some 2" exhaust piping all the way back from the collector.
10-30-2009, 07:22 PM
#66
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It looks like we have some more things in common!
I Tig (GTAW) weld an aluminum robot chassis for high
school robotics competitions every year.
I am not one to move away from the factory fuel system,
but that is most likely just the oppression of the California
smog inspection, and not lack of interest on my part.
Eugene
I Tig (GTAW) weld an aluminum robot chassis for high
school robotics competitions every year.
I am not one to move away from the factory fuel system,
but that is most likely just the oppression of the California
smog inspection, and not lack of interest on my part.
Eugene
10-31-2009, 07:07 AM
#67
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Was hoping for more of a hose-rerouting option? Hmm well I'm pulling the dash today to work on my gauge setup I want to fabricate so I will see if new holes could be punched through the firewall in diff places for those heater hoses...
11-04-2009, 10:51 AM
#68
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Hmm v interesting... I am indeed at 4000 ft when I saw the ~180's.
I will do another compression test this weekend and see if anything has changed... I could do this fairly easily at sea level here in Sacramento near work vs home at 4000ft to back up your #'s.
FYI have ordered a megasquirt DIYPNP kit and will work on it a bit this weekend. One item I need to do is plumb in an IAT sensor, which I want to put into the plenum to get a temp closer to the combustion chambers so that will require a quick drill + tap of a new hole in the plenum which will require I remove the upper plenum so I will get a good look at the runners for the oil condition again.
Have 1000 miles on the thing so far, going to switch over to Mobil 1 soon. 3rd oil change has remained golden & at level so that is a good sign.
I will do another compression test this weekend and see if anything has changed... I could do this fairly easily at sea level here in Sacramento near work vs home at 4000ft to back up your #'s.
FYI have ordered a megasquirt DIYPNP kit and will work on it a bit this weekend. One item I need to do is plumb in an IAT sensor, which I want to put into the plenum to get a temp closer to the combustion chambers so that will require a quick drill + tap of a new hole in the plenum which will require I remove the upper plenum so I will get a good look at the runners for the oil condition again.
Have 1000 miles on the thing so far, going to switch over to Mobil 1 soon. 3rd oil change has remained golden & at level so that is a good sign.
11-04-2009, 09:24 PM
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compression results depend on altitude
Yes, the compression test will result in decreased compression gauge readings as you go up in altitude. In the limit of high altitude, no air, there is nothing to compress and no gauge reading will result at all.
If you go through the relevant physics, you will get a gauge pressure reduction on the order of what Homeless observes, comparing sea level performance to performance at 4000 feet. I could give a tour through the relevant physics, but I don't think that you guys would appreciate it all that much and an idealized analysis overpredicts what you actually see in a motor for a number of reasons. The situation is not quite as simple as a linear correction for air density, but it isn't far from that.
If MC's compression figures were taken at 4000 feet, as he reports, his
figures should be more like those obtained by Homeless at a similar altitude.
Eugene
If you go through the relevant physics, you will get a gauge pressure reduction on the order of what Homeless observes, comparing sea level performance to performance at 4000 feet. I could give a tour through the relevant physics, but I don't think that you guys would appreciate it all that much and an idealized analysis overpredicts what you actually see in a motor for a number of reasons. The situation is not quite as simple as a linear correction for air density, but it isn't far from that.
If MC's compression figures were taken at 4000 feet, as he reports, his
figures should be more like those obtained by Homeless at a similar altitude.
Eugene
Last edited by eugenedbrooksiii; 11-04-2009 at 09:31 PM.
11-05-2009, 10:27 AM
#70
YotaTech Milestone-Two Millionth Post
Cam timing events can be changed. Without overlap (Overlap is the point in crank rotation when both the intake and exhaust valves are open simultaneously. This happens at the end of the exhaust stroke when the exhaust valve is closing and the intake is opening. During the period of overlap, the intake and exhaust ports can communicate with each other. Ideally, you want the scavenge effect from the exhaust port to pull the air/fuel mixture from the intake port into the combustion chamber to achieve more efficient cylinder filling. A poorly designed cam and port combination, however, can cause reversion, where exhaust gases push their way past the intake valve and into the intake tract.) the flow required during the intake and exhaust events would restrict the CFM and you'd end up with restricted performance.
Think of the track & field event with a baton - the sprint relays. The baton gets passed to the next runner up ahead waiting. As the passsing runner get's closer, the accepting runner has started to run and gaining speed. The baton is passed at a closely timed "event". But if the runner who accepting the baton starts too soon, the runner passing the baton cannot make a swift pass (too much overlap) Or, is the accepting runner starts too late (too little overlap), time is lost between "passes".
That's what overlap is.
gNARLS.
Think of the track & field event with a baton - the sprint relays. The baton gets passed to the next runner up ahead waiting. As the passsing runner get's closer, the accepting runner has started to run and gaining speed. The baton is passed at a closely timed "event". But if the runner who accepting the baton starts too soon, the runner passing the baton cannot make a swift pass (too much overlap) Or, is the accepting runner starts too late (too little overlap), time is lost between "passes".
That's what overlap is.
gNARLS.
You smart!
Bustin ya.
That's actually an excellent explanation and analogy.....GOOD ONE Gnarls!!
11-05-2009, 10:47 AM
#71
YotaTech Milestone-Two Millionth Post
Cam Change and typical effect...
-- More Lobe Separation = Wider powerband, more peak power, smoother idle
-- Less Lobe Separation = Increased mid-range torque, faster acceleration, narrower powerband
-- More Duration: Powerband moved higher in rpm range
-- Less Duration: More low-end torque
-- More Overlap = Improved signal to carburetor, lower fuel efficiency, potential for reversion
-- Less Overlap = Improved low-rpm responsiveness, better fuel efficiency, engine may run hotter
So the nice thing about "camming", you can more or less pick and choose where you want your torque, HP, and at what RPM range.
gNARLS.
-- More Lobe Separation = Wider powerband, more peak power, smoother idle
-- Less Lobe Separation = Increased mid-range torque, faster acceleration, narrower powerband
-- More Duration: Powerband moved higher in rpm range
-- Less Duration: More low-end torque
-- More Overlap = Improved signal to carburetor, lower fuel efficiency, potential for reversion
-- Less Overlap = Improved low-rpm responsiveness, better fuel efficiency, engine may run hotter
So the nice thing about "camming", you can more or less pick and choose where you want your torque, HP, and at what RPM range.
gNARLS.
SHIRT.
so this is the deal with the different cams.....
11-09-2009, 08:17 PM
#72
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Recent compression test @ 4000ft:
5x = 5 'puffs', max = max reading after several more cycles.
1: 5x = 150
1: max = 170
2: 5x = 160
2: max = 172
3: 5x = 155
3: max = 168
4: 5x = 165
4: max = 180
Bit worried about #4 aye! Probably carbon build up.
This weekend will be pulling the manifold to tap a hole for an IAT sensor (see my other megasquirt thread!) and will get a chance to see if I still have oil in the intake tract. I did appear to lose quite a bit of the synthetic I just switched to, going to be monitoring that. There are no oil leaks, there is quite a bit of oil splattering on the valve cover around my PCV breather filter so some is coming out there. The oil is also darkening in colour quite quickly... still makes me wonder if my rings are bungggggggggggggggg.
Oh well in any event, I think I will pull things apart next summer and go forged internals for forced induction goodness. I've decided NA is pathetic on this motor hahahaha.
5x = 5 'puffs', max = max reading after several more cycles.
1: 5x = 150
1: max = 170
2: 5x = 160
2: max = 172
3: 5x = 155
3: max = 168
4: 5x = 165
4: max = 180
Bit worried about #4 aye! Probably carbon build up.
This weekend will be pulling the manifold to tap a hole for an IAT sensor (see my other megasquirt thread!) and will get a chance to see if I still have oil in the intake tract. I did appear to lose quite a bit of the synthetic I just switched to, going to be monitoring that. There are no oil leaks, there is quite a bit of oil splattering on the valve cover around my PCV breather filter so some is coming out there. The oil is also darkening in colour quite quickly... still makes me wonder if my rings are bungggggggggggggggg.
Oh well in any event, I think I will pull things apart next summer and go forged internals for forced induction goodness. I've decided NA is pathetic on this motor hahahaha.
11-12-2009, 11:25 AM
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Ugh... I have noticed some pretty significant oil consumption after switching to synthetic... Plus the colour of the oil went dark very quickly, within a few hundred miles.
Going to pull the intake plenum this weekend to among other things put an IAT sensor into it; will check for oil in lower intake runners when I do. If I find oil there will pull off rockers and see if there is a valve stem oil seal issue...
If all of that checks out then it must be the rings again... probably that ing machine shop again did the wrong hone or ed up the bores AGAIN... I reiterate they did not measure up to my heart's content when I checked them.
Oh well, good excuse for a big fat turbo forged rebuild next year.
Going to pull the intake plenum this weekend to among other things put an IAT sensor into it; will check for oil in lower intake runners when I do. If I find oil there will pull off rockers and see if there is a valve stem oil seal issue...
If all of that checks out then it must be the rings again... probably that ing machine shop again did the wrong hone or ed up the bores AGAIN... I reiterate they did not measure up to my heart's content when I checked them.
Oh well, good excuse for a big fat turbo forged rebuild next year.
11-16-2009, 08:31 PM
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It could be that the rings have seated a bit since he first ran the truck and got all that oil in his intake. Higher compression in one cylinder could be carbon fouling, or it could be rings that are better seated than the others. I wouldn't sweat 10psi in one cylinder all that much. This issue is best resolved with a combustion chamber volume measurement the next time the head is off the motor.
As long as the motor is running well enough, I wouldn't tear it down until a convenient time for doing that arrived. In fact, if it was running well enough I would not tear it down unless I was doing performance oriented improvements.
Given the experience with the miss-aligned studs and now the ring seating problems, I wouldn't be going back to that particular machine shop for any further work. If you want to be sure that cylinder honing is done right buy the needed equipment and learn to do it yourself. A good source for engine building equipment and supplies is www.goodson.com. Cylinder honing is best done yourself with the correct equipment and setup, taking the time to get it just right. A shop will happily charge you full price for a "bore only" job letting you do the honing and piston fitting yourself, and some might give you a price break for it.
Eugene
As long as the motor is running well enough, I wouldn't tear it down until a convenient time for doing that arrived. In fact, if it was running well enough I would not tear it down unless I was doing performance oriented improvements.
Given the experience with the miss-aligned studs and now the ring seating problems, I wouldn't be going back to that particular machine shop for any further work. If you want to be sure that cylinder honing is done right buy the needed equipment and learn to do it yourself. A good source for engine building equipment and supplies is www.goodson.com. Cylinder honing is best done yourself with the correct equipment and setup, taking the time to get it just right. A shop will happily charge you full price for a "bore only" job letting you do the honing and piston fitting yourself, and some might give you a price break for it.
Eugene
11-16-2009, 08:47 PM
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Yes I don't think I will be visiting that particular shop again... I have gone back to dino 5w30 and put in some Lucas break in additive (zinc zinc and more zinc) since all new 5w30 in California has no zinc to speak of.
Am running it hard, it does sound and run strong as I expected. Bloody hell if I don't keep having coolant leaks around the back of the block though; these damn firewall hoses
Just seems to be a PITA to get a good seal on those little tubes. I probably should have replaced those hoses too.
Perhaps next year I will go 0.030 over and get that done by a properly reputable shop, then try for a home brew honing for a new rings set setup for forced induction.
P.S. the plan right now is to design/develop a "1 hour" bolt on / off Turbo mod kit such that reversion to "sufficiently OEM" for Smog purposes can be done every 2 years w/o too much hassel.
The other option was to investigate this temporary-propane-conversion-for-CARB-exemption idea I have read a little about lately... Anyone know?
Am running it hard, it does sound and run strong as I expected. Bloody hell if I don't keep having coolant leaks around the back of the block though; these damn firewall hoses
Just seems to be a PITA to get a good seal on those little tubes. I probably should have replaced those hoses too.Perhaps next year I will go 0.030 over and get that done by a properly reputable shop, then try for a home brew honing for a new rings set setup for forced induction.
P.S. the plan right now is to design/develop a "1 hour" bolt on / off Turbo mod kit such that reversion to "sufficiently OEM" for Smog purposes can be done every 2 years w/o too much hassel.
The other option was to investigate this temporary-propane-conversion-for-CARB-exemption idea I have read a little about lately... Anyone know?
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