Need some main/rod bearing input, if you please...
02-10-2008, 02:34 AM
#1
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Need some main/rod bearing input, if you please...
Got this thread going right now:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...-input-133789/
No need to read it at all, just know that I'm rebuilding and am researching what I possibly might need.....particularly main and rod bearings, pistons or (maybe) just wrist pins, etc.
To the point....
In researching bearings, I find great price discrepancies. But, I'm not sure how the pricing is structured from source to source. For instance, Toyota dealer calls a "set" for rod bearings one upper and one lower bearing for each piston and priced about $14 a set. However, O'Reilly calls a set ALL FOUR upper and lower rod bearings ....for just a little more than $14. (Federal-Mogul.....all aluminum, btw.) I questioned the fellows at both the Toy and O'Reilly counters on the discrepancy and both assured me what they call a set is what is meant. But, I can't see how in the world there'd be such a difference in pricing. Maybe there's a mistake at O'Reilly...like the guy didn't really know and/or his computer wouldn't/couldn't clarify? Other sources on the internet range from the about the same price as Toyota to the same price as O'Reilly. Engnbldr has a "full set".....main AND rod bearings (all five mains and all four rods) plus thrust washers for $54. On source on ebay had bearings (King brand...same as engnbldr) for $190....all mains and all rods. Can you see where I'm going with this?
Anyway, since I'm a tad confused, I was wondering if anyone would mind sharing what brand and prices they found for a "full set" of main and rod bearings?
On the pistons...
In the event the wrist pins were bent from valve collision (which probably means the rods were also bent), can you buy just wrist pins and/or rods?....and what did you pay? OR, did you/should I buy entire pistons? What did you pay?
TIA.....
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...-input-133789/
No need to read it at all, just know that I'm rebuilding and am researching what I possibly might need.....particularly main and rod bearings, pistons or (maybe) just wrist pins, etc.
To the point....
In researching bearings, I find great price discrepancies. But, I'm not sure how the pricing is structured from source to source. For instance, Toyota dealer calls a "set" for rod bearings one upper and one lower bearing for each piston and priced about $14 a set. However, O'Reilly calls a set ALL FOUR upper and lower rod bearings ....for just a little more than $14. (Federal-Mogul.....all aluminum, btw.) I questioned the fellows at both the Toy and O'Reilly counters on the discrepancy and both assured me what they call a set is what is meant. But, I can't see how in the world there'd be such a difference in pricing. Maybe there's a mistake at O'Reilly...like the guy didn't really know and/or his computer wouldn't/couldn't clarify? Other sources on the internet range from the about the same price as Toyota to the same price as O'Reilly. Engnbldr has a "full set".....main AND rod bearings (all five mains and all four rods) plus thrust washers for $54. On source on ebay had bearings (King brand...same as engnbldr) for $190....all mains and all rods. Can you see where I'm going with this?
Anyway, since I'm a tad confused, I was wondering if anyone would mind sharing what brand and prices they found for a "full set" of main and rod bearings?
On the pistons...
In the event the wrist pins were bent from valve collision (which probably means the rods were also bent), can you buy just wrist pins and/or rods?....and what did you pay? OR, did you/should I buy entire pistons? What did you pay?
TIA.....
02-10-2008, 03:13 AM
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morning matthew, i see were you are coming from, and where you are trying to go. did you ask your mechanic friend about this?
they have a way of telling if your rod is bent, so maybe you won't new rods.
yes, i thank you can buy just the wrist pin, but how is the new piston going to fit, meaning, since you didn't bore the cylinders will you be able to make up the gap with the rings? my bet, $14 a bearing.
this nickel and dime stuff is what makes the bottom line grow.
i would go with egnbldr, but i have never bought a thing from him.
they have a way of telling if your rod is bent, so maybe you won't new rods.
yes, i thank you can buy just the wrist pin, but how is the new piston going to fit, meaning, since you didn't bore the cylinders will you be able to make up the gap with the rings? my bet, $14 a bearing.
this nickel and dime stuff is what makes the bottom line grow.
i would go with egnbldr, but i have never bought a thing from him.
02-10-2008, 05:42 AM
#4
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Toyota sells bearings as a set of two halves. This is because they are select fit. there is a code and it relates to the actual clearance between the crank and rod or the crank and block. this way you can get bearings that will bring your oil clearance to the middle of spec. check the FSM for more details.
Really I don't think this is necessary if you have a good machine shop. they can machine the parts to get the right clearance with the bearings you get.
I don't think I would use aluminum bearings. the copper bearings conduct the heat away better and will likely last longer if you are using your stuff hard.
If you hit the vlaves hard enough to bend the rods, you will definitely want to replace the pistons and pins. However I've seen a bunch of 20r and 22R engines that bent valves and did not hurt any thing else. Keep in mind, you are not working on a mitsubishi. then I'd be worried about the bottom end.
Really I don't think this is necessary if you have a good machine shop. they can machine the parts to get the right clearance with the bearings you get.
I don't think I would use aluminum bearings. the copper bearings conduct the heat away better and will likely last longer if you are using your stuff hard.
If you hit the vlaves hard enough to bend the rods, you will definitely want to replace the pistons and pins. However I've seen a bunch of 20r and 22R engines that bent valves and did not hurt any thing else. Keep in mind, you are not working on a mitsubishi. then I'd be worried about the bottom end.
02-10-2008, 07:11 AM
#5
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Thread Starter
morning matthew, i see were you are coming from, and where you are trying to go. did you ask your mechanic friend about this?
they have a way of telling if your rod is bent, so maybe you won't new rods.
yes, i thank you can buy just the wrist pin, but how is the new piston going to fit, meaning, since you didn't bore the cylinders will you be able to make up the gap with the rings? my bet, $14 a bearing.
this nickel and dime stuff is what makes the bottom line grow.
i would go with egnbldr, but i have never bought a thing from him.
they have a way of telling if your rod is bent, so maybe you won't new rods.
yes, i thank you can buy just the wrist pin, but how is the new piston going to fit, meaning, since you didn't bore the cylinders will you be able to make up the gap with the rings? my bet, $14 a bearing.
this nickel and dime stuff is what makes the bottom line grow.
i would go with egnbldr, but i have never bought a thing from him.
I didn't ask him about the pricing differences, though. He's not at his shop on the weekend. That may all be moot by Tues, though.
As far as rods being bent, I'll just have to wait until I start up dismantling and inspecting again. If I find the wrist pins are damaged, I may have to just assume they are. Don may not have the equipment to check the rods and I know the shop where my truck is doesn't. And, I'm not driving all the way to Ft. Smith to have them check 'em. Atleast, I don't want to. Schmit...I don't know. We'll see. I just hope they aren't. I guess what has me questioning is that the piston cap pivots kinda stiff on the pin. I don't know if it should move more freely or not. Again, we'll see. I'm just doing what I can in the meantime sourcing parts in the event I find inspection failures....make it all move along as quickly as possible.
As far as new pistons fitting, I don't know. Hadn't thought that far in advance....
Guess I'll cross that bridge when/if I come to it.Whatever parts I find I need, I do believe I will just go with engnbldr. Can't hardly beat their prices for the quality and service....even if I can get OEM parts at cost. I'd trust engnbldr second only to OEM on stuff like this.
02-10-2008, 07:20 AM
#6
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Thank you.
Okay....I see what you mean. That's makes sense. But, since it doesn't look like I need the crank turned, standard size will be all I need. Nothing undersized, that is. Don't they only go in 10k/th increments, though?
That's what I thought about aluminum bearings, too. SUPPOSEDLY them being aluminum is to save wear on the crankshaft.....
Yeah, Don Clark and the head technician at the dealer did not seem concerned at all that rods/pins would be bent. They were quite confident I wouldn't actually find any problems. Come to think of it, neither did the shop where I had the head rebuilt. Everyone says they're just tough motors.....unlike Mitsubullschnits and Hondas!
Thanks all.
Toyota sells bearings as a set of two halves. This is because they are select fit. there is a code and it relates to the actual clearance between the crank and rod or the crank and block. this way you can get bearings that will bring your oil clearance to the middle of spec. check the FSM for more details.
Really I don't think this is necessary if you have a good machine shop. they can machine the parts to get the right clearance with the bearings you get.
I don't think I would use aluminum bearings. the copper bearings conduct the heat away better and will likely last longer if you are using your stuff hard.
If you hit the vlaves hard enough to bend the rods, you will definitely want to replace the pistons and pins. However I've seen a bunch of 20r and 22R engines that bent valves and did not hurt any thing else. Keep in mind, you are not working on a mitsubishi. then I'd be worried about the bottom end.
Really I don't think this is necessary if you have a good machine shop. they can machine the parts to get the right clearance with the bearings you get.
I don't think I would use aluminum bearings. the copper bearings conduct the heat away better and will likely last longer if you are using your stuff hard.
If you hit the vlaves hard enough to bend the rods, you will definitely want to replace the pistons and pins. However I've seen a bunch of 20r and 22R engines that bent valves and did not hurt any thing else. Keep in mind, you are not working on a mitsubishi. then I'd be worried about the bottom end.
That's what I thought about aluminum bearings, too. SUPPOSEDLY them being aluminum is to save wear on the crankshaft.....
Yeah, Don Clark and the head technician at the dealer did not seem concerned at all that rods/pins would be bent. They were quite confident I wouldn't actually find any problems. Come to think of it, neither did the shop where I had the head rebuilt. Everyone says they're just tough motors.....unlike Mitsubullschnits and Hondas!
Thanks all.
Last edited by thook; 02-10-2008 at 07:24 AM.
02-10-2008, 08:56 AM
#7
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Normally bearings are sized in 0.010" intervals, but for toyota bearings standard sizes come in 0.0002" intervals around the standard size so you can get closer to perfect. If you are just freshening up an old engine that has very little wear. you could go with the tightest bearing and would probably be good.
Or you could get some quality aftermarket parts in the standard size and may end up .0006 more clearance, Not really enough to worry about as long as your clearance is in range.
Or you could get some quality aftermarket parts in the standard size and may end up .0006 more clearance, Not really enough to worry about as long as your clearance is in range.
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02-10-2008, 09:55 AM
#8
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Thread Starter
Normally bearings are sized in 0.010" intervals, but for toyota bearings standard sizes come in 0.0002" intervals around the standard size so you can get closer to perfect. If you are just freshening up an old engine that has very little wear. you could go with the tightest bearing and would probably be good.
Or you could get some quality aftermarket parts in the standard size and may end up .0006 more clearance, Not really enough to worry about as long as your clearance is in range.
Or you could get some quality aftermarket parts in the standard size and may end up .0006 more clearance, Not really enough to worry about as long as your clearance is in range.
You see, Don Clark told me that I can go with "undersized" bearings....and that he would and some people do..... while the machine shop that did the head said that going undersized would require some light machining of the crank if the tolerances were....as you said...somewhere in the middle. Don said no machining would be required and that the undersizing would get the tolerances back to original factory. He had to have been referring to what you're saying and the machine shop must only have certain aftermarket sizes. Hmmm....I wouldn't mind getting the tolerances as tight as possible. I'll just have to wait and see what I'm dealing with. I'd think I'd need a micrometer to get that specific, though. Don't you?
Again, thank you for clarifying that for me. No one else had so far.
Last edited by thook; 02-10-2008 at 11:52 AM.
02-10-2008, 12:16 PM
#9
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Measure everything.....
The rod journals usually end up with an elliptical wear. If there was .010" wear then you would definitely need to have it machined.
Get or borrow a micrometer and check to see where it is at. You'll want to check the rods to. as they can be out of round.
All in all if your engine has not endured particularly hard use (or abuse), it probably is OK to just freshen it up.
But you should definitely measure everthing just to be sure.
Get or borrow a micrometer and check to see where it is at. You'll want to check the rods to. as they can be out of round.
All in all if your engine has not endured particularly hard use (or abuse), it probably is OK to just freshen it up.
But you should definitely measure everthing just to be sure.
02-10-2008, 01:07 PM
#10
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This all depends on if I can get my hands on a micrometer. Otherwise, I may have to wing it and rely on visual clues.
Edit: Nevermind. My brain just started working again.....<<kachunk-kachunk>>....I understand what you're saying.
Last edited by thook; 02-10-2008 at 02:21 PM.
02-10-2008, 02:14 PM
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Like targetnut said, if you have enough wear to justify undersize bearings then your journals are probably elliptical and you need to grind your crank. So basically your crank will need to be machined for undersized bearings.
As far as standard bearings, I just assembled an engine with a factory crank that has never been ground. I used new standard size bearings from engnbldr and when I checked the clearance with plastigauge they were too tight. (less then .001"). This was on rods with a 'B' stamped on them which means that they were in the middle of the range for factory grinds. If you don't grind the crank you might want to get bearings from the dealer to match up perfectly or something other than the ones engnbldr sales. Just a thought.
As far as standard bearings, I just assembled an engine with a factory crank that has never been ground. I used new standard size bearings from engnbldr and when I checked the clearance with plastigauge they were too tight. (less then .001"). This was on rods with a 'B' stamped on them which means that they were in the middle of the range for factory grinds. If you don't grind the crank you might want to get bearings from the dealer to match up perfectly or something other than the ones engnbldr sales. Just a thought.
02-10-2008, 02:23 PM
#12
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Like targetnut said, if you have enough wear to justify undersize bearings then your journals are probably elliptical and you need to grind your crank. So basically your crank will need to be machined for undersized bearings.
As far as standard bearings, I just assembled an engine with a factory crank that has never been ground. I used new standard size bearings from engnbldr and when I checked the clearance with plastigauge they were too tight. (less then .001"). This was on rods with a 'B' stamped on them which means that they were in the middle of the range for factory grinds. If you don't grind the crank you might want to get bearings from the dealer to match up perfectly or something other than the ones engnbldr sales. Just a thought.
As far as standard bearings, I just assembled an engine with a factory crank that has never been ground. I used new standard size bearings from engnbldr and when I checked the clearance with plastigauge they were too tight. (less then .001"). This was on rods with a 'B' stamped on them which means that they were in the middle of the range for factory grinds. If you don't grind the crank you might want to get bearings from the dealer to match up perfectly or something other than the ones engnbldr sales. Just a thought.
02-10-2008, 02:40 PM
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as you know. there is lots of pressure on the bottom end. and i don't think i have seen a single picture of this build. c'mon Thook, are you really doing a rebuild, or are you just being a post whore.
02-10-2008, 03:04 PM
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thook
when you are visually inspecting the rods at both ends for excessive wear your best bet would be to have the crank shaft turned under size, buy over sized bearings and replace the rods all together. I would not bother having the connecting rods reground because if they look elliptical then they are more than likely bent too. typically the connecting rods will show evidence of fatigue before the piston pins do.
when you are visually inspecting the rods at both ends for excessive wear your best bet would be to have the crank shaft turned under size, buy over sized bearings and replace the rods all together. I would not bother having the connecting rods reground because if they look elliptical then they are more than likely bent too. typically the connecting rods will show evidence of fatigue before the piston pins do.
02-10-2008, 03:41 PM
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hey matthew ok im sorry i didnt read it at all sorry but when i rebuilt mine i just replaced anything and everything and i spent only 1200 what i did is went to advanced auto parts and got there full rebuild kit comes with any and all gaskets rod and main bearings rings and freeze plugs but it didnt come with a rear main seal but its only 12 bucks there anyways as for the crank and rods and cam i went to enbuilder heres his number 1-503-257-7947 there very good and only mess with the 22r motors the rods where only 100 bucks for all four the crank was only i think 120 cant remember though and my cam was only 98 bucks the rebuild kit from advanced was only 285 i think so if you need anything else man you got my number give me a call and i can help you out with anything on the rebuild as i've done it already lol
02-10-2008, 05:06 PM
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Yes, tortis....I'm really doing a rebuild. I do have some pics taken, but I've no idea how to get them off the camera and to the computer. Plus, my computer doesn't have the software to do that, so it all has to be loaded to my wife's so she can email them to me so I can load them to photobucket and post them here. I ask her all the time to help. She usually gets involved with other things. So, pics are low on the priority list. But, post whoring is high, amigo! It's my thread....why not? (We need a post whore emoticon!
)Nate...
Thanks for the input. I really do take all that I gather from sources into consideration when weighing my options against what's necessary. I picked up the plastiguage material this evening. Tues. I will clean everything up and inspect it all closely.
Allan....
Only $1200? Lol....that's ALOT of money to me. You'd have to know what I do for a living, I suppose. I'm already a bit stressed over how I'm going to pay off the credit card for what I've spent so far.
Anyway, thanks for the offer on advice. Very kind of you. Between you all here, Don Clark, my buds at D&S body shop, and the techs at Toyota I have EVERY ONE of my bases covered. I'll let you know if I need anything....
Last edited by thook; 02-11-2008 at 08:34 AM.
02-11-2008, 06:35 AM
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The plastiguage is a good way to go i have heard but i have never used it my self. I have always done all my measuring with ball and tee gauges with a micrometre. But that is a much quicker and more efficient way of doing the same thing. Let us know what you find. 
02-11-2008, 11:23 AM
#19
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Anyway, since I'm a tad confused, I was wondering if anyone would mind sharing what brand and prices they found for a "full set" of main and rod bearings?
On the pistons...
In the event the wrist pins were bent from valve collision (which probably means the rods were also bent), can you buy just wrist pins and/or rods?....and what did you pay? OR, did you/should I buy entire pistons? What did you pay?
I can't tell what constitutes a "set". I can tell you that dealer mark up on prices can exceed 100% so it wouldn't surprise me if one "set" was a good for a single cylinder at the dealer. Chances are that Toyota doesn't make the bearings, so go aftermarket.
I buy from engnbldr. I sleep because I know I'm getting a good price and I don't have to worry about buying some junk from China that isn't make out of the right materials and might not be spec'd correctly.
Know how big a wrist pin is? Know how big a valve is? Think it's likely that a wrist pin would get bent via collision with a valve? Good.. Me either.
You're engaged in a full rebuild. Have your rods checked (not replaced) by a machine shop. The rods are stout little things.. And I've never had to replace a set. Advice is to replace your pistons if you have more than 100k miles on them. Just buy engnbldr's rebuild kit ($300) and be done with it, sleep at night - no worries...
You can nickle and dime this, but in the long run you're adding more risk for minimal cost savings. What you don't want to happen is to do all this work, spend the money and then be re-doing it again to the tune of another $800 or more...
02-11-2008, 12:58 PM
#20
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Okay....made my decision. I'm going to get new bearings. After researching and talking with Don Clark about how crankcase bearings are made and what they're made with, it will be a very good idea to "freshen" them....as Targetnut says.
The materials they're made of are soft enough so that fine particulates that make it past the oil and air filter and the rings are trapped/embedded in the surface to reduce impact on the journals' surface. Mine are probably full!..lol. Considering all the crap from the last two timing chain failures, anyway. Not to mention the excessive blow-by I'd been getting.
So, I don't know what size I need, yet, but due to timing and cost I'm probably going to get a bearing set from O'Reilly....Federal-Mogul. I mentioned that part about them being made from all aluminum. Don said that simply wouldn't be, and that the guy at the parts counter just didn't completely know what he was talking about. Most bearings are made with a multi-metal material. Fine...I take Don's word for it over the O'Reilly guy any day.
Check it out:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...6/ai_n13559975
I decided to some more research on Fed-Mog after talking with Don because of his confidence and experience with their products.
Here's what they're newest line of bearings (the ones at O'Reilly) are made of...a bimetal:
http://www.federal-mogul.com/en/Afte...ngineBearings/
I'm doing even more research after I get some chores done today. It's interesting....I didn't know Aisin/Seiki had any relationships with Fed-Mog or even Borg-Warner, for that matter. And, from what I've gathered so far, Toyota doesn't even make there own bearings....just put their name on them. Wonder who makes them? Hmmmmm.....
Oh, and guess who was putting Fed-Mog bearings in some of their motors in 1999? Yep.....
The materials they're made of are soft enough so that fine particulates that make it past the oil and air filter and the rings are trapped/embedded in the surface to reduce impact on the journals' surface. Mine are probably full!..lol. Considering all the crap from the last two timing chain failures, anyway. Not to mention the excessive blow-by I'd been getting.
So, I don't know what size I need, yet, but due to timing and cost I'm probably going to get a bearing set from O'Reilly....Federal-Mogul. I mentioned that part about them being made from all aluminum. Don said that simply wouldn't be, and that the guy at the parts counter just didn't completely know what he was talking about. Most bearings are made with a multi-metal material. Fine...I take Don's word for it over the O'Reilly guy any day.
Check it out:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...6/ai_n13559975
I decided to some more research on Fed-Mog after talking with Don because of his confidence and experience with their products.
Here's what they're newest line of bearings (the ones at O'Reilly) are made of...a bimetal:
http://www.federal-mogul.com/en/Afte...ngineBearings/
I'm doing even more research after I get some chores done today. It's interesting....I didn't know Aisin/Seiki had any relationships with Fed-Mog or even Borg-Warner, for that matter. And, from what I've gathered so far, Toyota doesn't even make there own bearings....just put their name on them. Wonder who makes them? Hmmmmm.....
Oh, and guess who was putting Fed-Mog bearings in some of their motors in 1999? Yep.....
