i wanna hear some motor oil arguments
12-04-2007, 06:39 PM
#62
That truth is most of us excluding at least me don't even leave our oil in our engines long enough for it to matter what we use. If you change at 3k miles, get the cheapest crap you can find. If you are using diesel oils or synthetics, leave it in for at least 6K miles unless you are REALLY hard on your engine.
Frank
Frank
)so I probably qualify for the severe service category too.I just changed it over from the 10W-40 synthetic to some Mobile Delvac 1300 15W-40(CHEAP, Gyot Dam!...how come nobody told me about this stuff sooner?). I have no phobias about doin' such. I've mixed more variety of brands/types/weights of oil in my engines, transmissions, t-cases, differentials over the years than I could possibly keep track of. Never had any problem that I could definetively say was due to mixing/switching oils in anything(arguments to the contrary?...anyone?)
I can already taste the $avings!
Last edited by MudHippy; 12-04-2007 at 06:55 PM.
12-04-2007, 08:33 PM
#63
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Mudhippy...
I think the only problem that I know of with mixing oils/lubs is the additive packages different companies use. Some of the additives just don't mix well and cause problems with proper lubrication.....foaming, as an example. It seems as I recall, though, those problems were mostly in the distant past and it's not the case so much anymore. Although I've done the mixing thing some myself in dire situations, I try to really avoid it.....not knowing for sure who has what in it and all.
I also remember reading about change intervals....how the 3k mile thing was largely a thing in the past until the advent of greater lube technology. When I ran across the link I posted, it reminded me. The U.S. gasoline has a higher sulfur content and contaminates the motor oil much faster than say foreign countries where the fuel is refined better. But, unless the driving conditions are what's actually considered severe use and the motor is aged with considerably worn tolerances, the oil can still be stretched for further use past the 3k mile mark. AND, from what I understand changing the filter doesn't improve anything in the way of removing the acids nor change the break down of oil molecules from the acids. So, changing the filter will only protect from relatively larger particles in the oil. Apparently, some synthetics seem to be more tolerant to these conditions. Not dino, though.
I think the only problem that I know of with mixing oils/lubs is the additive packages different companies use. Some of the additives just don't mix well and cause problems with proper lubrication.....foaming, as an example. It seems as I recall, though, those problems were mostly in the distant past and it's not the case so much anymore. Although I've done the mixing thing some myself in dire situations, I try to really avoid it.....not knowing for sure who has what in it and all.
I also remember reading about change intervals....how the 3k mile thing was largely a thing in the past until the advent of greater lube technology. When I ran across the link I posted, it reminded me. The U.S. gasoline has a higher sulfur content and contaminates the motor oil much faster than say foreign countries where the fuel is refined better. But, unless the driving conditions are what's actually considered severe use and the motor is aged with considerably worn tolerances, the oil can still be stretched for further use past the 3k mile mark. AND, from what I understand changing the filter doesn't improve anything in the way of removing the acids nor change the break down of oil molecules from the acids. So, changing the filter will only protect from relatively larger particles in the oil. Apparently, some synthetics seem to be more tolerant to these conditions. Not dino, though.
12-05-2007, 06:07 AM
#64
Registered User
changing the filter does help if the filter gets all plugged up theres a valve that just totally bypasses it totally removing any filtration from your oil system. you change the filter to keep that from happening.
acids aren't a major issue in gas engines, more so in diesels. diesel oil (CI) is also rated with a "total base number" or TBN. Basic is the opposite of acidic, so the idea is that it neutralizes the acid from all the sulfur in diesel fuel.
acids aren't a major issue in gas engines, more so in diesels. diesel oil (CI) is also rated with a "total base number" or TBN. Basic is the opposite of acidic, so the idea is that it neutralizes the acid from all the sulfur in diesel fuel.
Last edited by MMA_Alex; 12-05-2007 at 06:09 AM.
12-05-2007, 07:31 AM
#66
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changing the filter does help if the filter gets all plugged up theres a valve that just totally bypasses it totally removing any filtration from your oil system. you change the filter to keep that from happening.
acids aren't a major issue in gas engines, more so in diesels. diesel oil (CI) is also rated with a "total base number" or TBN. Basic is the opposite of acidic, so the idea is that it neutralizes the acid from all the sulfur in diesel fuel.
acids aren't a major issue in gas engines, more so in diesels. diesel oil (CI) is also rated with a "total base number" or TBN. Basic is the opposite of acidic, so the idea is that it neutralizes the acid from all the sulfur in diesel fuel.
Ever heard of people putting burned motor oil on a dog with mange? It works (although it is unhealthy) not only because of the oil itself, but because of the sulfur in it. Sulfur will kill mange.
12-05-2007, 08:19 AM
#67
Registered User
thats correct the filter is only going to pick up particles of a certain size in microns, depending on the quality of the filter. The oil turns black because its got all the junk suspended in it. When it gets sludgy, or when the oil becomes supersaturated with soot, and other tiny particles thats when it needs to be changed normally. I think part of the reason oils are used for extended drain intervals is because of the higher cost of everything over there. If you look at the price of motor oil in Europe I believe it is much higher, similar to the prices you see in that Australian article I commented on earlier in this thread. The sulfur in gasoline in the US isn't a major issue. Even now with the introduction of ultra low sulfur diesel you see the oils recommended in those engines have a much lower TBN
oh, and delvac is used in pretty much every piece of industrial equipment out there, and is good stuff, and extremely cheap, especially when you buy it buy the drum.
oh, and delvac is used in pretty much every piece of industrial equipment out there, and is good stuff, and extremely cheap, especially when you buy it buy the drum.
Last edited by MMA_Alex; 12-05-2007 at 08:21 AM.
12-05-2007, 08:56 AM
#68
Registered User
Okay, sulfur not major, but still a mitigating factor. Read some about the gasoline in other countries. You'll see part of the reason for their fuel costs is more refinement.
So, those using Delvac...I'll search...but, what's so special about it? At this point I wouldn't mind cutting my costs on oil with the other expenses I have right now.
So, those using Delvac...I'll search...but, what's so special about it? At this point I wouldn't mind cutting my costs on oil with the other expenses I have right now.
12-05-2007, 12:48 PM
#69
Characteristics comparable to a synthetic oil, such as extended drain intervals because of shear-stable viscosity index improvers and high detergency, high soot load handling(dispersant funtion), and enhanced pH buffering. Also extra-low cold pour point, Delvac 1300 pours at -30*F. Not bad for 15W-40 "dino" oil. The ability to flow at lower temps than regular conventional oil of the same weight means it can protect better at start-up similar to synthetic oils. From what I understand the EP additives in modern diesel oils are copious and top notch as well. I like that theory so much I add even more ZDDP via the STP oil treatment. Call me crazy...but it's too cheap to pass up!($2/bottle). I've been using it for many years, no harm no foul. Whether it does any good or not, I don't care.
Good stuff, cheap. I'm hooked....well we'll see, I change my mind ALOT. Ya never know...something better might come round. 'Till then, me=
(happy camper)
Last edited by MudHippy; 12-05-2007 at 03:46 PM.
12-05-2007, 01:19 PM
#71
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motoroil arguements?
<mobil 1> - Castrol, you better watch your back.im sick of your trash!
<castrol>- Mobil 1, bring it fool...... IM not afraid of you
<mobil 1> Its go time man....
Thats about all the fighting ive seen so far...LOL
<mobil 1> - Castrol, you better watch your back.im sick of your trash!
<castrol>- Mobil 1, bring it fool...... IM not afraid of you
<mobil 1> Its go time man....
Thats about all the fighting ive seen so far...LOL
12-05-2007, 01:29 PM
#72
Misprint, that was supposed to be ZDDP. Oops!(I'll edit my previous post...viola!..done)
zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP) is an AW(anti-wear) and antioxidant additive.
yeah...that's right..I think. Not a chemist...really.
Here's something more on it.
zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP) is an AW(anti-wear) and antioxidant additive.
yeah...that's right..I think. Not a chemist...really.
Here's something more on it.
Organic zinc compounds are used as extreme pressure, anti-wear additives, and are therefore found in larger amounts in oils specifically blended for high-revving, turbocharged or racing applications. The zinc in your oil comes into play only when there is actual metal-to-metal
contact within your engine, which should never occur under normal operating conditions. However, if you race your vehicle, or occasionally play
tag with the redline on the tach, the zinc is your last line of defense. Under extreme conditions, the zinc compounds react with the metal to
prevent scuffing, particularly between cylinder bores and piston rings.
contact within your engine, which should never occur under normal operating conditions. However, if you race your vehicle, or occasionally play
tag with the redline on the tach, the zinc is your last line of defense. Under extreme conditions, the zinc compounds react with the metal to
prevent scuffing, particularly between cylinder bores and piston rings.
Last edited by MudHippy; 12-05-2007 at 03:47 PM.
12-05-2007, 02:00 PM
#73
Registered User
THis a good read. Pretty long....funny....but interesting just the same.
http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html
http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html
12-05-2007, 02:13 PM
#74
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I use castrol for normal non synthetic oil. And Amsoil or Mobil 1 for synthetic. My friend works for the second or third largest toyota dealer in the NATION and they use Castrol GTX. Also if you look on the cap of a lot of new cars and trucks they say to use MOBIL 1 Synthetic not just any synthetic. Car manufactures and dealers wouldnt jeopardize their buisness with a bad product. Pretty much every toyota owner ive met is using castrol.
Last edited by deserttoy84; 12-05-2007 at 02:19 PM.
12-05-2007, 02:22 PM
#75
Registered User
I ran across lots of stuff I'll to have fav' the links and post'em....for those seriously interested. Lots of independent reviews and studies out there.
So far I've read some on the Delvac dino. Sounds real good, but the weight is heavy for cold. So, I saw there's a Delvac Syth to be had easily as well as Rotella synth. Both in this link http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html and both lighter weight on cold starts. Right now, with 20w-50 in the 22re it just isn't happy. It's not going to be in much longer, so I'm going to rinse the Auto-RX out with something else....inexpensive, of course...and lighter. The Delvac and/or Rotella are looking good.
Read this from here:http://www.performanceoiltechnology....lbreakdown.htm
Part of the job of refining petroleum oil is to remove as many naturally occurring chemicals that can reduce the oxidation resistance of an oil. Oxidation resistance can then be improved by the addition of additives engineered into the oil, such as anti-oxidants. Anti-oxidants include several different chemicals with the most common one being ZDDP (Zinc Diethyl Dithiophosphate). Anti-oxidants also become depleted with use and when that happens the oil starts to oxidize rapidly.
Last edited by thook; 12-05-2007 at 02:25 PM.
12-05-2007, 02:23 PM
#76
Registered User
I use castrol for normal non synthetic oil. And Amsoil or Mobil 1 for synthetic. My friend works for the second or third largest toyota dealer in the NATION and they use Castrol GTX. Also if you look on the cap of a lot of new cars and trucks they say to use MOBIL 1 Synthetic not just any synthetic. Car manufactures and dealers wouldnt jeopardize their buisness with a bad product. Pretty much every toyota owner ive met is using castrol.
Frank
12-05-2007, 02:29 PM
#77
Registered User
It's all about money and not the consumer's interests.....other than spending money. Some people just like to do that. Makes'em feel better.
12-05-2007, 03:07 PM
#78
More ZDDP tech.
This from Eng-tips.com Automotive Lubricant Engineering Forum ZDDP thread
I might start pouring in some more supplementary with my top-off oil at my 3000 mile mid-point filter change after reading this. Hmmmm....
Cheap insurance? Or over-kill?
This from Eng-tips.com Automotive Lubricant Engineering Forum ZDDP thread
Knap (Industrial) 16 Oct 06 9:42
My understanding is that for ZDDP there is a Primary and Secondary used for Car Oil acting at different pressure/temp. If there are 4+ different types of ZDDP, and AW and oxidation properties vary between types, is there a variation in mix for different uses ie normal road, diesel, race.
My understanding is that for ZDDP there is a Primary and Secondary used for Car Oil acting at different pressure/temp. If there are 4+ different types of ZDDP, and AW and oxidation properties vary between types, is there a variation in mix for different uses ie normal road, diesel, race.
romke (Automotive) 28 Dec 06 10:32
there are many types of zinc/sulphur compounds that both act as antiwear and antioxidant. the actual working mechanism is not yet fully understood, and a lot of those compounds are effective in different temperature ranges. therefore usually a mix is applied. as for secondary and primaray types: those terms are usually employed when describing their influence on the oxidation proces of an engine oil. the oxidation proces consists of two distinct phases: the primary step is the forming of free radicals, the secondary step is the free radical starting a chain reaction to generate more free radicals. therefore you can stop the proces in two ways: stop the formation of free radicals by substituting the "lost" H-atom with something else (primary antioxidant) and you can prevent the generating of new free radicals in the chain reaction by putting an end to that reaction - and that is what the secondary antioxidant does. usually zinc/sulphur compounds do both. one thing to bear in mind is that those compounds are used up during the process, which means that once they have been active as an antioxidant they no longer can act as an antiwear agent. in practice you can experience that when a lot of antioxidant is called for you will end up with a lot of valve train wear - a clear sign that the zinc/sulphur compounds where used up as antioxidant and therefore insufficient antiwear capability was left.
the amount needed for different types of engine and operating conditions will of course vary. in racing oxidation is not the biggest problem, because usually the oil is changed quite frequently. what you do need is the antiwear protection because usually high revs are involved. in a typical truck engine the antioxidant capability is usually much more important because of the extended drain intervals, whereas the revs are usually modest.
if you choose the right type of oil for the type of engine employed, you should be ok - if in doubt use an oil according to the latest API or ACEA spec.
there are many types of zinc/sulphur compounds that both act as antiwear and antioxidant. the actual working mechanism is not yet fully understood, and a lot of those compounds are effective in different temperature ranges. therefore usually a mix is applied. as for secondary and primaray types: those terms are usually employed when describing their influence on the oxidation proces of an engine oil. the oxidation proces consists of two distinct phases: the primary step is the forming of free radicals, the secondary step is the free radical starting a chain reaction to generate more free radicals. therefore you can stop the proces in two ways: stop the formation of free radicals by substituting the "lost" H-atom with something else (primary antioxidant) and you can prevent the generating of new free radicals in the chain reaction by putting an end to that reaction - and that is what the secondary antioxidant does. usually zinc/sulphur compounds do both. one thing to bear in mind is that those compounds are used up during the process, which means that once they have been active as an antioxidant they no longer can act as an antiwear agent. in practice you can experience that when a lot of antioxidant is called for you will end up with a lot of valve train wear - a clear sign that the zinc/sulphur compounds where used up as antioxidant and therefore insufficient antiwear capability was left.
the amount needed for different types of engine and operating conditions will of course vary. in racing oxidation is not the biggest problem, because usually the oil is changed quite frequently. what you do need is the antiwear protection because usually high revs are involved. in a typical truck engine the antioxidant capability is usually much more important because of the extended drain intervals, whereas the revs are usually modest.
if you choose the right type of oil for the type of engine employed, you should be ok - if in doubt use an oil according to the latest API or ACEA spec.
drwebb (Automotive) 2 Jan 07 10:07
I thought secondary/primary referred to the chemical structure of the alcohols the ZDDP was prepared from and not the mechaistic function of the AO?
My experience is that road racing applications don't respond strongly to AW because most of the time is spent in the hydrodynamic regime, whereas off-road applications with more slow & go do.
I thought secondary/primary referred to the chemical structure of the alcohols the ZDDP was prepared from and not the mechaistic function of the AO?
My experience is that road racing applications don't respond strongly to AW because most of the time is spent in the hydrodynamic regime, whereas off-road applications with more slow & go do.
Cheap insurance? Or over-kill?
Last edited by MudHippy; 12-05-2007 at 03:51 PM.
04-16-2009, 08:51 AM
#80
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I run rotella T and a quart of lucas oil in my 3.0 and in my girlfriends dodge neon. Never had a problem and it only cost like $10 for a little over 4 quarts of rotella then like $8 for lucas oil. So like $18 then maybe $4 for a fram oil filter. I change it every 4k miles. I race motocross and I run rotella T in my dirtbikes because on a mx forum I read that some race teams were running it with good results. I have ran it in my 4 strokes and 2 strokes for about a year and never had a problem there either.
