Gear oil requirements for 87 4x4
09-24-2012, 07:18 AM
#41
so this is what your all recomending ?
for both transmission and transfercase ? = 5qts. (including spillage)
for both transmission and transfercase ? = 5qts. (including spillage)
Last edited by MudHippy; 09-24-2012 at 07:21 AM.
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idanity (11-08-2021)
09-28-2012, 08:51 PM
#42
idanity, buy it from that site as that is the cheapest I have seen RedLine go for. At least $1.00 to 2.40 cheaper than Summit Racing.
Still doing my homework on this GL5 acceptability for our synchromesh transmissions. GL5 optimal....NO. Acceptable.....YES. Something tells me that if you are using a GL5 oil in our trannys and are not getting absolutely smooth shifts, it means the synchronizers are not working in an optimal way....causing wear to them, not the gears inside which are steel and wear much better than brass/or whatever yellow metal Toyota uses. You can use the GL5 and still shift, but if she shifts not as smooth as it should, sooner than later you are taking apart the transmission to replace the yellow metal. Time and time again, you see some companies making a GL4 lube for trannys such as one here. It says it CAN cause wear to the synchros, so why would you want to take a chance when you can use a GL4 and have smoother shifts because the 4 allows the synchros to do the job.
Axle gears last many miles when you regularly change the oil(let's assume DD duty for this), so why shouldn't the steel gears in the tranny with regular maintenance? I'd rather protect the softer stuff.
This is from this page here:
Even though automobile and light truck transmissions are now almost universally synchronized, transmissions for heavy trucks and machinery, motorcycles, and for dedicated racing are usually not. Non-synchronized transmission designs are used for several reasons. The friction material, such as brass, in synchronizers is more prone to wear and breakage than gears, which are forged steel, and the simplicity of the mechanism improves reliability and reduces cost. In addition, the process of shifting a synchromesh transmission is slower than that of shifting a non-synchromesh transmission. For racing of production-based transmissions, sometimes half the teeth (or dogs) on the synchros are removed to speed the shifting process, at the expense of greater wear.
Heavy duty trucks often use unsynchronized transmissions, though military trucks usually have synchronized transmissions, allowing untrained personnel to operate them in emergencies. In the United States, traffic safety rules refer to non-synchronous transmissions in classes of larger commercial motor vehicles. In Europe, heavy duty trucks use synchronized gearboxes as standard.
Similarly, most modern motorcycles use unsynchronized transmissions: their low gear inertias and higher strengths mean that forcing the gears to alter speed is not damaging, and the pedal operated selector on modern motorcycles, with no neutral position between gears (except, commonly, 1st and 2nd), is not conducive to having the long shift time of a synchronized gearbox
So it stands to reason that the GL5 spec was for the more heavy duty, non-synchronized applications as well as hypoid diff gears.
Good article here on Gear lubricants. From this article:
The performance and application of Gear oils are identified by their viscosity expressed in an SAE viscosity grade, and by an API (American Petroleum Institute) GL specification number. The API - GL specification number is an indication of the intended gear type, load, and material for the application. The numbering scale progresses upward for load carrying ability with GL 3&4 products being primarily intended for low load automotive gearbox & manual transmissions, and Hypoid / GL 5 & 6* rated products being intended for higher load applications such as in differentials and rearends.
*The API Severe duty GL6 standard has been removed from warranty service specifications for new light duty passenger cars, but some oil manufacturers maintain the more severe capability oil performance specification for extreme applications.
Another good post here on comparing GL4 to GL5.
You wouldn't run GL4 in your axles, why would you want to run GL5 in your tranny when GL4 works well?
Still doing my homework on this GL5 acceptability for our synchromesh transmissions. GL5 optimal....NO. Acceptable.....YES. Something tells me that if you are using a GL5 oil in our trannys and are not getting absolutely smooth shifts, it means the synchronizers are not working in an optimal way....causing wear to them, not the gears inside which are steel and wear much better than brass/or whatever yellow metal Toyota uses. You can use the GL5 and still shift, but if she shifts not as smooth as it should, sooner than later you are taking apart the transmission to replace the yellow metal. Time and time again, you see some companies making a GL4 lube for trannys such as one here. It says it CAN cause wear to the synchros, so why would you want to take a chance when you can use a GL4 and have smoother shifts because the 4 allows the synchros to do the job.
Axle gears last many miles when you regularly change the oil(let's assume DD duty for this), so why shouldn't the steel gears in the tranny with regular maintenance? I'd rather protect the softer stuff.
This is from this page here:
Even though automobile and light truck transmissions are now almost universally synchronized, transmissions for heavy trucks and machinery, motorcycles, and for dedicated racing are usually not. Non-synchronized transmission designs are used for several reasons. The friction material, such as brass, in synchronizers is more prone to wear and breakage than gears, which are forged steel, and the simplicity of the mechanism improves reliability and reduces cost. In addition, the process of shifting a synchromesh transmission is slower than that of shifting a non-synchromesh transmission. For racing of production-based transmissions, sometimes half the teeth (or dogs) on the synchros are removed to speed the shifting process, at the expense of greater wear.
Heavy duty trucks often use unsynchronized transmissions, though military trucks usually have synchronized transmissions, allowing untrained personnel to operate them in emergencies. In the United States, traffic safety rules refer to non-synchronous transmissions in classes of larger commercial motor vehicles. In Europe, heavy duty trucks use synchronized gearboxes as standard.
Similarly, most modern motorcycles use unsynchronized transmissions: their low gear inertias and higher strengths mean that forcing the gears to alter speed is not damaging, and the pedal operated selector on modern motorcycles, with no neutral position between gears (except, commonly, 1st and 2nd), is not conducive to having the long shift time of a synchronized gearbox
So it stands to reason that the GL5 spec was for the more heavy duty, non-synchronized applications as well as hypoid diff gears.
Good article here on Gear lubricants. From this article:
The performance and application of Gear oils are identified by their viscosity expressed in an SAE viscosity grade, and by an API (American Petroleum Institute) GL specification number. The API - GL specification number is an indication of the intended gear type, load, and material for the application. The numbering scale progresses upward for load carrying ability with GL 3&4 products being primarily intended for low load automotive gearbox & manual transmissions, and Hypoid / GL 5 & 6* rated products being intended for higher load applications such as in differentials and rearends.
*The API Severe duty GL6 standard has been removed from warranty service specifications for new light duty passenger cars, but some oil manufacturers maintain the more severe capability oil performance specification for extreme applications.
Another good post here on comparing GL4 to GL5.
You wouldn't run GL4 in your axles, why would you want to run GL5 in your tranny when GL4 works well?
Last edited by daved5150; 10-05-2012 at 11:20 PM.
10-10-2012, 07:42 PM
#44
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I ran Valvoline GL5 in my R150F for about 2-3 years. It wouldn't shift well AT ALL in cold temps, plus it would snag the gears if I shifted quickly....the syncro for 2nd gear eventually started failing. I've since switched to Amsoil 75-90 GL4. The syncro problem continues, but if I'm careful when I shift, it won't catch a tooth or two with the signature "scritch".
PART of the reason could be that I ran it almost OUT of gear oil for around 1000 miles (bolts holding transmission together in the middle were loose...sabotage??). However, the syncro issue was there before that, just not as bad.
Now it shifts like BUTTAH except for that 2nd gear syncro.
PART of the reason could be that I ran it almost OUT of gear oil for around 1000 miles (bolts holding transmission together in the middle were loose...sabotage??). However, the syncro issue was there before that, just not as bad.
Now it shifts like BUTTAH except for that 2nd gear syncro.
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idanity (11-08-2021)
10-11-2012, 10:13 AM
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This GL4 vs GL5 thing is a never ending struggle for everyone.
You can break it down into two issues though:
1. Yellow metal compatibility
It is relatively rare to find anything these days that isn't yellow metal compatible. This was the whole point of GL4 and GL5 for a long time, GL4 was GL5 with less of the stuff that eats yellow metals and was generally formulated for transmissions which ALWAYS had yellow metals at the time. If you see anything GL4/5 dual rated, it will not destroy your transmission. If it's straight GL5, there's no reason to mess with it because you can easily find other choices.
2. Shift quality
GL4 is slightly different and will improve how your shifts feel. Weight differences will disappear after about 15 minutes, even in the cold Minnesota winters
If you're in Alaska or Canada, this would be a bigger deal.
I think what really confuses people is where to even buy this stuff. When I first looked I couldn't really find it at the auto parts stores, and I wanted to cheaper than the 6-7$ quarts of Royal Purple (the only thing I could find, still GL4/5 rated but with a better reputation). When I realized I basically HAD to go the Redline, Royal Purple route, I found a performance store that sells a bunch of Redline products (I just used their store locator on the website) and bought a bunch of Heavy Shockproof for transmission and TC. It's amazing.
You can break it down into two issues though:
1. Yellow metal compatibility
It is relatively rare to find anything these days that isn't yellow metal compatible. This was the whole point of GL4 and GL5 for a long time, GL4 was GL5 with less of the stuff that eats yellow metals and was generally formulated for transmissions which ALWAYS had yellow metals at the time. If you see anything GL4/5 dual rated, it will not destroy your transmission. If it's straight GL5, there's no reason to mess with it because you can easily find other choices.
2. Shift quality
GL4 is slightly different and will improve how your shifts feel. Weight differences will disappear after about 15 minutes, even in the cold Minnesota winters
If you're in Alaska or Canada, this would be a bigger deal.I think what really confuses people is where to even buy this stuff. When I first looked I couldn't really find it at the auto parts stores, and I wanted to cheaper than the 6-7$ quarts of Royal Purple (the only thing I could find, still GL4/5 rated but with a better reputation). When I realized I basically HAD to go the Redline, Royal Purple route, I found a performance store that sells a bunch of Redline products (I just used their store locator on the website) and bought a bunch of Heavy Shockproof for transmission and TC. It's amazing.
10-11-2012, 11:01 AM
#46
Thanks for that info, TN. Most everyone here runs a GL4 in the transmission. But since Toyota recommends a GL5 also, just wanted to hear the experience of the others that have run the GL5. Since the GL4 rated lubes work so well in the two 4Runners that I have driven and from what everyone else here uses with postive results, I see no reason to run the more "heavy duty" GL5 rated lubes that have a higher concentration of extreme pressure made for differentials.
Last edited by daved5150; 10-11-2012 at 11:03 AM.
10-11-2012, 11:10 AM
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Toyota recommends GL3, 4 and 5. It's definitely a "run what you can get" situation. Also, GL5 is not strictly for differentials and is generally an all-purpose oil.
The EP additives really don't make much of a difference. Back when the EP additives ate yellow metals, GL4 was specced with less of them for that exact reason. Now that most manufacturers don't use sulfur based EP additives, GL5 and GL4 are generally interchangeable in a general sense.
I keep stressing this point to one day kill the fear that people have about selecting a transmission oil. Well meaning people throw down scare stories about destroying gearboxes with GL5 when generally that won't happen anymore.
The EP additives really don't make much of a difference. Back when the EP additives ate yellow metals, GL4 was specced with less of them for that exact reason. Now that most manufacturers don't use sulfur based EP additives, GL5 and GL4 are generally interchangeable in a general sense.
I keep stressing this point to one day kill the fear that people have about selecting a transmission oil. Well meaning people throw down scare stories about destroying gearboxes with GL5 when generally that won't happen anymore.
10-11-2012, 09:58 PM
#48
The "GL4 or GL5" debate is not a struggle for me. For me, it is to learn more about the use of GL5 lube in the Toyota trannys. For the record, I am satisfied with using a GL4 rated lube and very much like the MT90. That's all I ran in my 88 for tranny and Transfer case. On Red Line's site here, it states this about Heavy Shock Proof:
Heavy ShockProof®
Film thickness greater than an SAE 75W250, yet low fluid friction like 75W90
For heavily-loaded racing differentials and transmissions, problem gearboxes
Many performance racing applications like Sprint/Midget/Dirt Late Model Differentials, Detroit Lockers and spools, NHRA Top Fuel and Funny Car rear ends
Not recommended for most synchro applications due to the product's extreme slipperiness
When I called Red Line years ago about my 1988 4Runner, they told me to use MT90 for tranny and T/C. But if it's working for you, dude...good for you.
This has been a fact finding mission for me. I have been researching on the Internet and post some facts that I find. I also post my opinion and I am no expert, I can readily admit. I have been learning as I go.
I have seen enough of posts by people (and on other forums) that claim to have a better shifting synchronized transmission with the GL4 as opposed to the GL5 to sway me further to keep using what's working for me and not try the GL5. I am not confused about buying the proper gear oil for my truck because I enjoy looking into things myself. I just read that modern synthetic GL5 does not contain sulfur in the EP package which is what is not beneficial to the "yellow" synchro's. True...who knows? I am not familiar with the dual rated GL4/GL5 lubes such as Royal Purple. I still have that Castrol Synchromesh lube in my transmission that I used because I didn't have enough MT90 for the tranny so I threw the MT90 in the TC. Shifts fantastic with it but I may change that. Feel free to post opinions.
The API rating of GL3 is an outdated spec ( inactive ). But not saying that there are not any older vehicles out there that don't spec that for use. And any FSM that I have seen for my 88 as well as my 94 4runner state GL4 or GL5 only for the MT and TC. The difference that the GL ratings make is that the Extreme Pressure additive package is greater (in concentration) in the GL5 which may make it too slippery for use in our transmissions. Yes, I am aware that a GL5 gear lube is a multi-purpose lube. Hey Jerry, which gear lube do you run in your truck?
Heavy ShockProof®
Film thickness greater than an SAE 75W250, yet low fluid friction like 75W90
For heavily-loaded racing differentials and transmissions, problem gearboxes
Many performance racing applications like Sprint/Midget/Dirt Late Model Differentials, Detroit Lockers and spools, NHRA Top Fuel and Funny Car rear ends
Not recommended for most synchro applications due to the product's extreme slipperiness
When I called Red Line years ago about my 1988 4Runner, they told me to use MT90 for tranny and T/C. But if it's working for you, dude...good for you.
This has been a fact finding mission for me. I have been researching on the Internet and post some facts that I find. I also post my opinion and I am no expert, I can readily admit. I have been learning as I go.
I have seen enough of posts by people (and on other forums) that claim to have a better shifting synchronized transmission with the GL4 as opposed to the GL5 to sway me further to keep using what's working for me and not try the GL5. I am not confused about buying the proper gear oil for my truck because I enjoy looking into things myself. I just read that modern synthetic GL5 does not contain sulfur in the EP package which is what is not beneficial to the "yellow" synchro's. True...who knows? I am not familiar with the dual rated GL4/GL5 lubes such as Royal Purple. I still have that Castrol Synchromesh lube in my transmission that I used because I didn't have enough MT90 for the tranny so I threw the MT90 in the TC. Shifts fantastic with it but I may change that. Feel free to post opinions.
The API rating of GL3 is an outdated spec ( inactive ). But not saying that there are not any older vehicles out there that don't spec that for use. And any FSM that I have seen for my 88 as well as my 94 4runner state GL4 or GL5 only for the MT and TC. The difference that the GL ratings make is that the Extreme Pressure additive package is greater (in concentration) in the GL5 which may make it too slippery for use in our transmissions. Yes, I am aware that a GL5 gear lube is a multi-purpose lube. Hey Jerry, which gear lube do you run in your truck?
10-16-2012, 12:42 PM
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Sorry, I got mixed up and meant Lightweight Shockproof. It has a reputation for good results with "difficult" transmissions, and hopefully will have good results with my difficult first gear. Right now I run straight 90W GL4 no-name oil. It's fine except for low temperature conditions when it's pretty terrible. I wish I knew what was in there before, but it was very dirty and used up so it wouldn't have been a good indicator of performance for whatever it was anyway.
The constant point I've been trying to make is MT90, noname gl4 90W, most gl4/5 oils, whatever, won't damage your transmission. They'll just result in subpar shifting performance.
Also, I don't know what FSM you're looking at. The good 4runner manual on ncttora has it listed. See here: http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/1990-1995...1/descript.pdf Sadly it's not possible to figure out what the regular toyota manual says because that page isn't included in the 93 pickup manual.
The constant point I've been trying to make is MT90, noname gl4 90W, most gl4/5 oils, whatever, won't damage your transmission. They'll just result in subpar shifting performance.
Also, I don't know what FSM you're looking at. The good 4runner manual on ncttora has it listed. See here: http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/1990-1995...1/descript.pdf Sadly it's not possible to figure out what the regular toyota manual says because that page isn't included in the 93 pickup manual.
10-16-2012, 07:40 PM
#50
Jerry, I don't mean to blow holes in your story here bud, but here is the link to the Redline Shockproof Gear oil page here. And from that page I quote,
The LightWeight can be rated as a 75W140 Gear Oil, Temperature reductions between 25°F - 75°F are common in circle track, road racing, and off-road racing, Improved durability in high-performance use is the primary benefit of the Heavy ShockProof™ and along with the improved durability is an improvement in
efficiency, but if further improvements in efficiency are desired, and durability is not a major concern, LightWeight and SuperLight ShockProof™ can be used. Red Line ShockProof™ can be used in conventional, limited-slip, or locker differentials. Red Line ShockProof™ is designed for use in competition differentials and transmissions
Also from Red Line's site:
Lightweight ShockProof®
Film thickness greater than an SAE 75W140, yet low fluid friction like 80W gear oil or 30W motor oil
Excellent low-temp flow, improved cold shifting
For racing differentials under moderate loads
Popular in racing transmissions like Hewland and other Road Racing dog-ring boxes, Bert and Brinn for Stock Cars, G-Force, and Liberty clutchless for Drag Racing
It seems like the common theme with the Lightweight Shockproof is that it is a racing/track lubricant, not a street application such as a daily driver. I'm not saying it couldn't work because I do not have any experience with it, but it would not be my first choice.
Why would you want to use a 75w140 gear oil when our trannys are spec'd at 75w90? And why aren't you running a 75w90 but are using a straight weight 90? For the record, Red Line MT90 will offer exceptional shift performance. That stuff is the bomb. I ran it in both my 4Runners with great results. I currently have Castrol Synchromesh in mine now because I didn't have enough MT90 to fill the tranny, but MT90 is in my transfer case. The Synchromesh was very smooth in my transmission for the record. I will probably change that before winter, but haven't driven my 94 in about a month because it's in garage for body work. I don't know where you get that a GL4 will give sub par shift performance from, but it is not correct. A GL5 rated gear oil will more than likely give a harder shifting experience because of the higher concentration of EP chemistry which make it slippery and might prevent optimal synchronizer operation.
Besides, your transmission might need new 1st gear synchronizers but it definitely needs attention...don't blame the fluid though.
My 1994 4Runner factory owner's manual as well as the 1988 FSM I have on my hard drive says "GL4/GL5." I will post up as soon as I figure out how.
The LightWeight can be rated as a 75W140 Gear Oil, Temperature reductions between 25°F - 75°F are common in circle track, road racing, and off-road racing, Improved durability in high-performance use is the primary benefit of the Heavy ShockProof™ and along with the improved durability is an improvement in
efficiency, but if further improvements in efficiency are desired, and durability is not a major concern, LightWeight and SuperLight ShockProof™ can be used. Red Line ShockProof™ can be used in conventional, limited-slip, or locker differentials. Red Line ShockProof™ is designed for use in competition differentials and transmissions
Also from Red Line's site:
Lightweight ShockProof®
Film thickness greater than an SAE 75W140, yet low fluid friction like 80W gear oil or 30W motor oil
Excellent low-temp flow, improved cold shifting
For racing differentials under moderate loads
Popular in racing transmissions like Hewland and other Road Racing dog-ring boxes, Bert and Brinn for Stock Cars, G-Force, and Liberty clutchless for Drag Racing
It seems like the common theme with the Lightweight Shockproof is that it is a racing/track lubricant, not a street application such as a daily driver. I'm not saying it couldn't work because I do not have any experience with it, but it would not be my first choice.
Why would you want to use a 75w140 gear oil when our trannys are spec'd at 75w90? And why aren't you running a 75w90 but are using a straight weight 90? For the record, Red Line MT90 will offer exceptional shift performance. That stuff is the bomb. I ran it in both my 4Runners with great results. I currently have Castrol Synchromesh in mine now because I didn't have enough MT90 to fill the tranny, but MT90 is in my transfer case. The Synchromesh was very smooth in my transmission for the record. I will probably change that before winter, but haven't driven my 94 in about a month because it's in garage for body work. I don't know where you get that a GL4 will give sub par shift performance from, but it is not correct. A GL5 rated gear oil will more than likely give a harder shifting experience because of the higher concentration of EP chemistry which make it slippery and might prevent optimal synchronizer operation.
Besides, your transmission might need new 1st gear synchronizers but it definitely needs attention...don't blame the fluid though.
My 1994 4Runner factory owner's manual as well as the 1988 FSM I have on my hard drive says "GL4/GL5." I will post up as soon as I figure out how.
Last edited by daved5150; 10-16-2012 at 07:43 PM.
10-16-2012, 08:19 PM
#51
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Don't worry, you're not. Redline just puts different text in different places. It's actually on the "Gear oil from manual transmissions" page, and if you go there they give you a different set of text.
Gear oil is a complex subject and as such it's natural that there are a LOT of variables at play aside from the xWy number. Straight 90 is fine, you'll just have bad shifting at low temperatures. In my experience with Minnesota winters my transmission is warm within a mile and shifts as well as it does in the summer. It's in there because that's all I could find at the time
The idea is that the high film thickness keeps the oil sticking to everything better than 90W, but the coefficient of friction is still right around that 80W number which is just fine for the transmission even if it's specced at 90. It's a common misconception that oils are specced for serious engineering reasons. It's much more heavily dependent on supply chain and other factors. The difference between 80 and 90 weight is negligible. After all, look at MT90. You'll see that they recommend it for a wide variety of other weights.
The recommendation for the shockproof stuff is purely from other Toyota owners I know who have used it in "difficult" transmissions and seen some improvement. It's not really better or worse than MT90 as you seem to think, but if I could see even a little difference for the nearly non-existent cost difference it's worth not having to replace the synchro. What do I have to lose?
I'm not really interested in what your FSM says, aside from that there are obviously different FSMs out there and the community should take note of that. I merely posted the links to the internet FSMs because those are resources we can all look at and see what they say.
There are many choices, some are worse than others. None are bad, and largely they don't make significant differences.
Gear oil is a complex subject and as such it's natural that there are a LOT of variables at play aside from the xWy number. Straight 90 is fine, you'll just have bad shifting at low temperatures. In my experience with Minnesota winters my transmission is warm within a mile and shifts as well as it does in the summer. It's in there because that's all I could find at the time
The idea is that the high film thickness keeps the oil sticking to everything better than 90W, but the coefficient of friction is still right around that 80W number which is just fine for the transmission even if it's specced at 90. It's a common misconception that oils are specced for serious engineering reasons. It's much more heavily dependent on supply chain and other factors. The difference between 80 and 90 weight is negligible. After all, look at MT90. You'll see that they recommend it for a wide variety of other weights.
The recommendation for the shockproof stuff is purely from other Toyota owners I know who have used it in "difficult" transmissions and seen some improvement. It's not really better or worse than MT90 as you seem to think, but if I could see even a little difference for the nearly non-existent cost difference it's worth not having to replace the synchro. What do I have to lose?
I'm not really interested in what your FSM says, aside from that there are obviously different FSMs out there and the community should take note of that. I merely posted the links to the internet FSMs because those are resources we can all look at and see what they say.
There are many choices, some are worse than others. None are bad, and largely they don't make significant differences.
10-23-2012, 09:07 PM
#52
"The constant point I've been trying to make is MT90, noname gl4 90W, most gl4/5 oils, whatever, won't damage your transmission. They'll just result in subpar shifting performance."
I just wanted to ask you about this statement. I have no experience with the dual rated GL4/GL5 lubes. I do have experience with MT90 which works very well and which I have seen alot of posts from others as well. A lot of guys run a synthetic GL4 lube with great results, myself included. I just wondered why you said GL4 lubes will cause sub par shifts?
I have no experience with the dual 4/5 rated lubes. Who makes them besides Royal Purple?
The Synchromesh which I read has a lube viscosity of straight 80w. It works well now. I will see once it starts getting cold here. I have about two quarts of MT90 left as well as a new gallon of StaLube 85w90 GL4 lube which MudHippy recommended. I will have to think about what I will place in the tranny (mixture?) we'll see. Maybe I will order more MT90 as soon as more money grows on the money tree.
"Yellow metal compatibility
It is relatively rare to find anything these days that isn't yellow metal compatible." If you are talking GL5....???
"most manufacturers don't use sulfur based EP additives,"
Not trying to be a wise guy, but where did you find these facts out?
"This was the whole point of GL4 and GL5 for a long time, GL4 was GL5 with less of the stuff that eats yellow metals and was generally formulated for transmissions which ALWAYS had yellow metals at the time."
Yea but all these older trucks have yellow metal in the Trannys. Do newer transmissions NOT have yellow metal in them?
"If it's straight GL5, there's no reason to mess with it because you can easily find other choices."
"It's definitely a "run what you can get" situation"
"people throw down scare stories about destroying gearboxes with GL5 when generally that won't happen anymore."
"GL5 and GL4 are generally interchangeable in a general sense."
Jerry, I am not giving you a hard time but you do contradict yourself here. The whole point of me posting to this thread was to offer my non-expert opinion and try to learn more about the GL5 lube's compatibility with our older transmissions. Yes, I know that the factory spec says GL4 or GL5. What makes me leary of the GL5 is the extreme pressure additives which may contain sulfur. If you have info that you can share or sources where you got it from, please post up. Like I said, I like to learn so let's see it.
"The recommendation for the shockproof stuff is purely from other Toyota owners I know who have used it in "difficult" transmissions and seen some improvement."
I agree with you there about getting recommendations from guys from forums like this. I do it all the time. I just don't think I could be swayed into using the GL5 when the GL4 serves the purpose well.
From Red Line's differential gear oil page here:
These products contain the extreme pressure additives necessary for ultimate protection road cars and racing vehicles, as well as friction modifiers for proper limited-slip operation
Ester base stocks and friction modifiers provide additional slipperiness to lower operating temperatures by reducing the sliding friction in hypoid gears so even if these oils were yellow metal "friendly", why would you want to run something that has additional friction modifiers made for a differential and not synchronizer operation in a manual transmission??...
From red Line's 75w90 GL5 Differential gear oil page here:
This product is not designed for use in most manual transmissions or transaxles in passenger vehicles, since the extreme slipperiness may cause synchronizer mesh issues that lead to shifting problems
And this is from Red Line's Manual tranny page here:
Since most GL-5 gear oils for differentials are too slippery for manual transmissions, Red Line offers these products that ensure proper shifting while providing ultimate wear protection
Appropriate coefficient of friction for most manual transmission synchronizers (other's synthetic gear oils are often too slippery for proper synchro engagement)
Excellent gear and synchro protection, balanced slipperiness for easier shifting in cold climates
MTL, MT-85 & MT-90 are not for use in differentials with hypoid gears[ So like I posted before, you wouldn't use a GL4 in the rear end, why would you want to use a GL5 in our transmissions???
Sorry for the long post
but I wanted to address all of this....
And maybe this too.....
I just wanted to ask you about this statement. I have no experience with the dual rated GL4/GL5 lubes. I do have experience with MT90 which works very well and which I have seen alot of posts from others as well. A lot of guys run a synthetic GL4 lube with great results, myself included. I just wondered why you said GL4 lubes will cause sub par shifts?
I have no experience with the dual 4/5 rated lubes. Who makes them besides Royal Purple?
The Synchromesh which I read has a lube viscosity of straight 80w. It works well now. I will see once it starts getting cold here. I have about two quarts of MT90 left as well as a new gallon of StaLube 85w90 GL4 lube which MudHippy recommended. I will have to think about what I will place in the tranny (mixture?) we'll see. Maybe I will order more MT90 as soon as more money grows on the money tree.
"Yellow metal compatibility
It is relatively rare to find anything these days that isn't yellow metal compatible." If you are talking GL5....???
"most manufacturers don't use sulfur based EP additives,"
Not trying to be a wise guy, but where did you find these facts out?
"This was the whole point of GL4 and GL5 for a long time, GL4 was GL5 with less of the stuff that eats yellow metals and was generally formulated for transmissions which ALWAYS had yellow metals at the time."
Yea but all these older trucks have yellow metal in the Trannys. Do newer transmissions NOT have yellow metal in them?
"If it's straight GL5, there's no reason to mess with it because you can easily find other choices."
"It's definitely a "run what you can get" situation"
"people throw down scare stories about destroying gearboxes with GL5 when generally that won't happen anymore."
"GL5 and GL4 are generally interchangeable in a general sense."
Jerry, I am not giving you a hard time but you do contradict yourself here. The whole point of me posting to this thread was to offer my non-expert opinion and try to learn more about the GL5 lube's compatibility with our older transmissions. Yes, I know that the factory spec says GL4 or GL5. What makes me leary of the GL5 is the extreme pressure additives which may contain sulfur. If you have info that you can share or sources where you got it from, please post up. Like I said, I like to learn so let's see it.
"The recommendation for the shockproof stuff is purely from other Toyota owners I know who have used it in "difficult" transmissions and seen some improvement."
I agree with you there about getting recommendations from guys from forums like this. I do it all the time. I just don't think I could be swayed into using the GL5 when the GL4 serves the purpose well.
From Red Line's differential gear oil page here:
These products contain the extreme pressure additives necessary for ultimate protection road cars and racing vehicles, as well as friction modifiers for proper limited-slip operation
Ester base stocks and friction modifiers provide additional slipperiness to lower operating temperatures by reducing the sliding friction in hypoid gears so even if these oils were yellow metal "friendly", why would you want to run something that has additional friction modifiers made for a differential and not synchronizer operation in a manual transmission??...
From red Line's 75w90 GL5 Differential gear oil page here:
This product is not designed for use in most manual transmissions or transaxles in passenger vehicles, since the extreme slipperiness may cause synchronizer mesh issues that lead to shifting problems
And this is from Red Line's Manual tranny page here:
Since most GL-5 gear oils for differentials are too slippery for manual transmissions, Red Line offers these products that ensure proper shifting while providing ultimate wear protection
Appropriate coefficient of friction for most manual transmission synchronizers (other's synthetic gear oils are often too slippery for proper synchro engagement)
Excellent gear and synchro protection, balanced slipperiness for easier shifting in cold climates
MTL, MT-85 & MT-90 are not for use in differentials with hypoid gears[ So like I posted before, you wouldn't use a GL4 in the rear end, why would you want to use a GL5 in our transmissions???
Sorry for the long post
but I wanted to address all of this....And maybe this too.....
10-23-2012, 10:59 PM
#53
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Your post expresses the difficulty with transmission oils today.
Why switch from GL4 to GL5 when you can easily get GL4? Well, no reason really. Now ask the reverse, why switch from GL5 to GL4 when you can so easily get GL5? Well, your shifting will feel slightly better.
If you head over to the bible of all that is oil, bobistheoilguy, there are a number of threads about this whole yellow metal issue. Here are some relevant ones from the tech library:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...255#Post729255
"Most 75W90 to 75W140 grades meet the GL-5 classification. This grade has a high level of Extreme-Pressure additives that could be mildly corrosive to nonferrous parts, such as brass, bronze and aluminum parts. Most of the modern GL-5 lubes contain metal deactivators that prevents attacks by the extreme-pressure additives."
And this: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...289#Post729289
"GL5 dual rated products simply means that it is supposed to be backward compatible and that the GL5 Z-S-P add pack is more than sufficient for GL4.
The problem is, the GL5 usually contains thickeners and tackifiers that might make shifting more difficult in cold weather for a purely rated GL4. In my view, only a full synthetic, properly formulated GL5 could have a dual rating."
So as I've said several times but perhaps not as clearly: I'd always close a good well known oil like MT-90 before I'd try a random GL5 oil from the autoparts store.
But it's not actually a guaranteed fact that MT-90 or any other oil will give you the best results. A high quality GL5, GL4/5 or other oil can also give good results for different qualities. I'm strictly looking to improve 1st gear performance, for example. It may be possible to get a better feel using a marine lube, or using Redline MTL or MT-85, especially if you're in extra cold environments. There is a long history backed by strong engineering theory and data to using different weights at different temps.
But most of all there are people on this forum that don't live in Minneapolis, MN and can't buy Redline products a few miles away. Or they NEED something now and don't want to wait for Amazon orders. Or they don't even live in the US. They should know that it's possible and quite safe to use something other than GL4. And the world is bigger than MT90 and not every GL4 is the same.
Why switch from GL4 to GL5 when you can easily get GL4? Well, no reason really. Now ask the reverse, why switch from GL5 to GL4 when you can so easily get GL5? Well, your shifting will feel slightly better.
If you head over to the bible of all that is oil, bobistheoilguy, there are a number of threads about this whole yellow metal issue. Here are some relevant ones from the tech library:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...255#Post729255
"Most 75W90 to 75W140 grades meet the GL-5 classification. This grade has a high level of Extreme-Pressure additives that could be mildly corrosive to nonferrous parts, such as brass, bronze and aluminum parts. Most of the modern GL-5 lubes contain metal deactivators that prevents attacks by the extreme-pressure additives."
And this: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...289#Post729289
"GL5 dual rated products simply means that it is supposed to be backward compatible and that the GL5 Z-S-P add pack is more than sufficient for GL4.
The problem is, the GL5 usually contains thickeners and tackifiers that might make shifting more difficult in cold weather for a purely rated GL4. In my view, only a full synthetic, properly formulated GL5 could have a dual rating."
So as I've said several times but perhaps not as clearly: I'd always close a good well known oil like MT-90 before I'd try a random GL5 oil from the autoparts store.
But it's not actually a guaranteed fact that MT-90 or any other oil will give you the best results. A high quality GL5, GL4/5 or other oil can also give good results for different qualities. I'm strictly looking to improve 1st gear performance, for example. It may be possible to get a better feel using a marine lube, or using Redline MTL or MT-85, especially if you're in extra cold environments. There is a long history backed by strong engineering theory and data to using different weights at different temps.
But most of all there are people on this forum that don't live in Minneapolis, MN and can't buy Redline products a few miles away. Or they NEED something now and don't want to wait for Amazon orders. Or they don't even live in the US. They should know that it's possible and quite safe to use something other than GL4. And the world is bigger than MT90 and not every GL4 is the same.
10-25-2012, 07:46 AM
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Wow! Went to search for a thread on gear oil and this one is actually current. Crazy debate, but very useful information. Ordered MT-90 for my rig as it seems my 1st and 2nd gear synchro's are just starting to act up, ever so slight and only when I try to shove it in gear to fast, but there none the less. Started out with replacing the shift and seat bushings, but that didn't fix it. Worth doing anyway as the shift placement is much better and a lot less "sloppy". I know it's not clutch issues so I hope this MT-90 does the trick.
10-27-2012, 10:57 AM
#55
My intent was to not argue but it seemed you were inconsistent with your posts. What I got out of it was that GL4 lubes and specifically MT90, could cause sub par shift quality and that GL4 and GL5 were interchangable. I thought you were against GL4 lubes. I thought that maybe you would rather run or recommend a GL5 lube for the manuals. To be honest, I was a little confused with the direction of where your posts were going.
Thanks for the links to bobistheoilguy forum. I have seen threads there on this matter but I have never seen those two.
Check this post out about what people think of MT90 and Red Line in general. I never said that MT90 was a magical lubricant for manual transmissions and that it had a guarantee for perfect shift quality. Most people here, myself included, that have used it and think it works fantastic.
Yes, I agree that different weights will work better at different temperatures. Minnesota gets alot colder than Western New York where I'm at. But we are no strangers to the colder weather. That's why I would recommend a multi-weight gear oil that's rated for the use in all weather instead of a straight grade gear oil. I only recommended MT90 because I have experience with it as well as many people here who give it thumbs up. As for Royal Purple's Max Gear 75w90 GL4/GL5 Oil, I have no experience with it but would like to find out if anyone has used this in our trannys with good results. But it's too expensive just to buy and try. I'll stick with what works for me...MT90.
The direction my posts have taken is that even though Toyota recommends GL5 for the transmission, I don't necessarily agree with that as all the info I have seen as well as my experience with a quality synthetic GL4 lube point to the fact that GL4 is optimal for manual transmission synchronizer operation in a HEALTHY transmission. What might not work in yours would possibly if not likely work in a healthy transmission like mine. When you posted that other owners have recommended use of Red Line's Shock Proof series of gear oils for "difficult" transmissions, you are essentially saying transmissions with synchro problems...so you are essentially trying to fix/get by a mechanical issue with a lubricant. I understand this as maybe you don't want to spend the time/money on a $______ (insert value) truck. I wish you luck in finding the lube which makes that first gear of yours shift better. But might be an expensive proposition.
The fact of the matter is that GL5 lubes may be "too slippery" for the synchro's to engage properly in our trannys, even if they are compatible for use with yellow metal. I asked in a previous post in this thread if any one has run a GL5 in the transmission and had good results. Over 2700 peeps have viewed this thread and only one person has posted with possibly bad luck using a GL5. This has been a learning experience for me with GL5 compatibility in our Yota trannys. Hopefully more people will read this and post up.
When I recently changed the tranny/transfer case lubes, I used MT90 in the transfer case. I may drain that and save it for my tranny. I've been reading that a GL5 in the case is fine so I may use the Mobil 1 GL5 75w90 I have. As for buying Red Line locally in the Buffalo area, I have never as I always get it from Summit Racing. Usually at my house the next day.
I also don't see the difficulty you keep talking about with choosing a lube for the tranny. The Light Weight ShockProof you mentioned is on the "Gear Oil for Manual Transmissions" page which I would assume make it a GL4 lube. Basically, use a quality multi-weight GL4 for the healthy transmission and use the GL5's for the differentials.
2shots1beer, MT90 should do the trick for you. I also did the lever seats in both my trucks with Marlin Crawler's seats. They make the tranny feel brand new.
Thanks for the links to bobistheoilguy forum. I have seen threads there on this matter but I have never seen those two.
Check this post out about what people think of MT90 and Red Line in general. I never said that MT90 was a magical lubricant for manual transmissions and that it had a guarantee for perfect shift quality. Most people here, myself included, that have used it and think it works fantastic.
Yes, I agree that different weights will work better at different temperatures. Minnesota gets alot colder than Western New York where I'm at. But we are no strangers to the colder weather. That's why I would recommend a multi-weight gear oil that's rated for the use in all weather instead of a straight grade gear oil. I only recommended MT90 because I have experience with it as well as many people here who give it thumbs up. As for Royal Purple's Max Gear 75w90 GL4/GL5 Oil, I have no experience with it but would like to find out if anyone has used this in our trannys with good results. But it's too expensive just to buy and try. I'll stick with what works for me...MT90.
The direction my posts have taken is that even though Toyota recommends GL5 for the transmission, I don't necessarily agree with that as all the info I have seen as well as my experience with a quality synthetic GL4 lube point to the fact that GL4 is optimal for manual transmission synchronizer operation in a HEALTHY transmission. What might not work in yours would possibly if not likely work in a healthy transmission like mine. When you posted that other owners have recommended use of Red Line's Shock Proof series of gear oils for "difficult" transmissions, you are essentially saying transmissions with synchro problems...so you are essentially trying to fix/get by a mechanical issue with a lubricant. I understand this as maybe you don't want to spend the time/money on a $______ (insert value) truck. I wish you luck in finding the lube which makes that first gear of yours shift better. But might be an expensive proposition.
The fact of the matter is that GL5 lubes may be "too slippery" for the synchro's to engage properly in our trannys, even if they are compatible for use with yellow metal. I asked in a previous post in this thread if any one has run a GL5 in the transmission and had good results. Over 2700 peeps have viewed this thread and only one person has posted with possibly bad luck using a GL5. This has been a learning experience for me with GL5 compatibility in our Yota trannys. Hopefully more people will read this and post up.
When I recently changed the tranny/transfer case lubes, I used MT90 in the transfer case. I may drain that and save it for my tranny. I've been reading that a GL5 in the case is fine so I may use the Mobil 1 GL5 75w90 I have. As for buying Red Line locally in the Buffalo area, I have never as I always get it from Summit Racing. Usually at my house the next day.
I also don't see the difficulty you keep talking about with choosing a lube for the tranny. The Light Weight ShockProof you mentioned is on the "Gear Oil for Manual Transmissions" page which I would assume make it a GL4 lube. Basically, use a quality multi-weight GL4 for the healthy transmission and use the GL5's for the differentials.
2shots1beer, MT90 should do the trick for you. I also did the lever seats in both my trucks with Marlin Crawler's seats. They make the tranny feel brand new.
Last edited by daved5150; 12-07-2012 at 05:31 PM.
10-28-2012, 09:02 AM
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Just an FYI update here on my end. I just added MT-90 GL4 75W/90 to my '83. I was just starting to experience slight grinding up and down shifting shifting to 2nd. I first replaced the shift and seat bushings with not much change to the grinding. After extensive reading and research here on the forum I ordered and replenished my transmission and transfer case with Red Line MT-90.
I would not have believed it and was actually leery of this making any difference. I am posting here now to state the the 2nd gear up and down shift grinding is GONE. Shifting is smoother, tranny is quieter. Absolutly amazing!
I would not have believed it and was actually leery of this making any difference. I am posting here now to state the the 2nd gear up and down shift grinding is GONE. Shifting is smoother, tranny is quieter. Absolutly amazing!
Last edited by 2shots1beer; 10-28-2012 at 05:57 PM.
10-28-2012, 02:30 PM
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I don't see any reason to use GL-4 rated oil for the transfer case. GL-4 is essentially only for syncro engagement. The transfer case isn't shifted while the geartrain is in motion. That said, the difference in corrosion resistance and detergents hardly seems like it's worth changing it out. Not like you'll really ever change the transmission oil again anyway.
