Drove over a ledge - Sudden, Extremely Loud, Engine Tapping (& timing parts question)

jungle_runner · 06-23-2009, 06:10 PM

i've had minor tapping for about a year ... i drove over a 4 foot grass divider in a parking lot, not realizing that there was a 3 foot, concrete drop-off on the other side!

the rear frame got hung up on the concrete lip and i had to lock in the front wheels because the rear ones were hanging off the ground

you should have seen the way people were staring at me ... "yes, i'm a little crazy, i already know this, but yes, this is a little embarrassing" was going through my head ... anyway ...

i got the truck free and continued running errands around town, third time i turned the engine back on, extremely loud tapping, speed of tapping associated with engine RPM, not vehicle speed

pulled the valve cover today and i see worn notches in the middle of the rockers ( i always thought the screws were the highest point and would be hitting the cover ) ... anyhow ... their are no notches in front rockers, they start showing on middle rockers and get deeper towards the rear of truck

Do you think the cover got jarred downward and compressed more? The whole rail was jarred? Or the rockers themselves?

I figure the engine is one unit that moves together on the mounts so i'm surprised that the jolt may have triggered the noise. Could it be something else I'm overlooking?

Also, while I'm in there, going to redo timing parts. Do people use the terms "timing dampers"/"timing guides" interchangeably? Had some confusion when calling around for parts. Know a place in So. Cal that I can pick up metal guides in-store?

Thanks a bunch, rock on!

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jungle_runner · 06-23-2009, 06:12 PM

i should add that when driving after the loud tapping started, i had to give engine a little gas at stops to keep it running or it would stall

yoterr · 06-23-2009, 06:26 PM

might have busted those worn out timing guides and the chain jumped a tooth? tapping noise would be the chain slapping the timing cover and the idleing rough would be the engine out of time? just a thought

jungle_runner · 06-23-2009, 06:45 PM

yoterr, thank you for the reply

yes, looked at the guides/dampers, still not sure if they are sometimes called dampers as well ... they look broken when looking down on them with timing cover still on

In-store Metal Timing Guides in Southern California!?!?! Anyone!?!?! Know a place?!?!

guy on the phone at autozone said, metal guides are louder.
ha!! it's all about utility, not luxury ... i have the top off most of the time anyway

iamsuperbleeder · 06-23-2009, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jungle_runner

yoterr, thank you for the reply

yes, looked at the guides/dampers, still not sure if they are sometimes called dampers as well ... they look broken when looking down on them with timing cover still on

In-store Metal Timing Guides in Southern California!?!?! Anyone!?!?! Know a place?!?!

guy on the phone at autozone said, metal guides are louder.
ha!! it's all about utility, not luxury ... i have the top off most of the time anyway

The guy at AutoZone is a tard, because they probable can't get steel guides to begin with

I HIGHLY doubt you'll be able to get steel guides anywhere over the counter, unless engnblr or LCE is in the neighborhood

You can get the kits online easily. I'm installed the engnblr kit with my 22re rebuild, that has a steel DRIVER'S side guide only, as they are most common to break, and that's the side that the chain can ware into the water pump housing. Also, the guide is steel, but is rubber coated, so it's not doing to make any more noise than an OEM plastic one, untill the rubber wares off anyway

As far as the names, most will just call the 2 side plastic rails that the chain runs against the guides, and the spring loaded thing at the bottom that presses on the chain to keep it tought the tensioner

Before I tore down my engine, I had an obvious brakage with my driver's side guid:

the new kit from engnbldr consisted of both sprockets (cam and crank), the chain, the tensioner, both guides (as well as new bolts for the guides), timing cover gaskets, and a new front main seal:

Now LCE offers a kit as well, that looks like both the guides are metal; bare metal at that; no rubber coatings on these guides... it's also a little more pricy, but that's cause it bares the LCE name

Also, I think the dropping off the ledge and this happening is probably coensidence

but just maybe the jar was all it needed to make the guide fall apart the rest of the way. Once my guide and tensioner failed, I developed a HORRIBLE as well, so it's very possible this is your problem

jungle_runner · 06-23-2009, 07:26 PM

iamsuperbleeder, you're the best! thanks for taking the time to write this up AND post some awesome photos! you

that photo of the broken guide vs the new ones on the engine really made it clear to me that they are in fact broken ... i am going to order the LCE or engnbldr kit and support the guys who support us ... thank you again

iamsuperbleeder · 06-23-2009, 07:31 PM

no problem buddy; we do what we can

jungle_runner · 07-03-2009, 03:20 PM

i just finished rebuilding the front end and started up the engine ... still the loud tapping sound ... i took the valve cover off (knowing that oil would spray every where) and started the engine again because i wanted to be sure it wasn't a rocker hitting the cover ... still the same noise

it sounds like the noise is coming from the rocker assembly near the rear of the engine

do you think i need to rebuild the cam shaft/rocker assembly? could it be a valve? any ideas on how to deduce where the problem is coming from? i can't keep the engine running for more than a few seconds because of the oil spray

thanks

abecedarian · 07-03-2009, 03:26 PM

any chance that getting hung up caused the exhaust to get damaged, maybe a broken manifold stud at the rear of the head?

it is a loud tapping like sound, and not a harder 'knock', right?

jungle_runner · 07-03-2009, 03:32 PM

hmmm ... i thought about that ... that it could be exhaust ... but the noise seems more like metallic tapping ... but i will go check that right now ... thanks abecedarian

abecedarian · 07-03-2009, 03:36 PM

an exhaust leak around the exhaust port can sound like someone tapping on a thin piece of sheet metal with the tip of a long screwdriver or pencil tip

jungle_runner · 07-03-2009, 04:23 PM

ok, i checked the exhaust from the block to the cat and every looks ok

i just took some video of the engine running and will post once i finish processing it

also, the engine dies even though the idle is strong and smooth, it's like there is some resistance somewhere

once again, still does it with the valve cover off

i'm thinking that it may be down near the flywheel now

thanks for the replies everyone, i would love to get this fixed tonight so that i can finally go home, and be back for the holiday weekend

jungle_runner · 07-03-2009, 04:54 PM

Video of loud tapping noise with engine running (does the same thing with valve cover removed):

YouTube Video

jungle_runner · 07-03-2009, 05:26 PM

ok, now i'm kind of thinking that it is an exhaust leak because i see exhaust coming out near the manifold

would the lack of back pressure cause the engine to die when at low idle?

thanks

dutchboy · 07-03-2009, 05:54 PM

This sounds like one of my farm tractors...with an exhaust leak.
Hmmm...

jungle_runner · 07-03-2009, 06:10 PM

yep, definitely an exhaust leak ... i tighten up the bolts near the rear of the exhaust manifold and the noise has dramatically reduced ... wow! now i know (and you know (for the other noobs)) what an exhaust leak can sound like, thanks every one

i still would like to know if an exhaust leak (not having enough back pressure) would cause the engine to die? ... i just want to be sure that this is what is probably causing that to happen ... my intuition says yes, but i'd like a second opinion

thanks

abecedarian · 07-03-2009, 08:02 PM

overall, no, an exhaust leak won't cause the engine to die.
but since you've had valve cover issues, I'd venture enough to guess that you've got a leak around the valve cover causing a rather large vacuum leak (no, don't go reading the 'oil cap removed' thread...

). since the PCV system requires a sealed crank case to operate properly, if the valve cover isn't sealed properly it will present itself as a major vacuum leak and can cause engine driveability issues such as stalling at idle and lean mixtures.

jungle_runner · 07-04-2009, 04:18 AM

it's 4am, i've been working on my truck since 11am this morning and have been putting in 6 or more hours every day for the last week ... i really need to get this done ... here's the update:

ran to autozone and picked up a new manifold gasket, flange rings, and the red silicone sealant ... even though one bolt into the head seems to be stripped, the exhaust leak is now audibly gone, no tapping noise ... i figure that the jolt to the frame on the concrete broke loose the gasket's seal on the manifold ... upon inspection, it was a very old, cracked gasket

i probably mentioned before that the timing guides were broken as well (don't know how long that had been broken or if it happened at the same time as the exhaust leak), so new guides, chain, gears, tensioner, and gaskets have all been installed

the engine started stalling at idle as soon as the exhaust leak started making it's noise, but now, with the exhaust leak fixed, the engine is still stalling at idle and sputtering at higher rpms

timing off? lost compression? some sensor that also simultaneously went bad during the jolt?

timing? the light links of the timing chain are matched up with the dimple on cam gear and crank gear, tried distributor one tooth advanced and retarded, but the original location runs best

lost compression? it looks like all my vacuum lines are in place. i did remove the a/c compressor and it's radiator while i was taking apart the front end, and i don't plan to put them back in

a sensor malfunctioning? o2? afm? tps? egr? could any of these cause the engine to stall at idle?

thanks in advance for any ideas ... my eyelids are heavy ... got to z zzz zz zz z zzz

jungle_runner · 07-04-2009, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abecedarian

I'd venture enough to guess that you've got a leak around the valve cover causing a rather large vacuum leak

thanks for the idea, would you still guess this knowing that the stalling started simultaneously with the exhaust leak? could the valve cover have shifted and began to loose compression?

jungle_runner · 07-04-2009, 09:51 AM

i'm going to try spraying carb cleaner around the engine to see if there are any open areas on the intake side ... maybe the intake gasket is cracked like the exhaust was

jungle_runner · 07-04-2009, 10:17 AM

also, there is white smoke coming from the engine on the exhaust side ... i thought it may just be the white lithium lube i used in the oil pump burning off, but it is staying pretty consistent, especially when the engine is rev'd ... the white smoke is coming out of the tail pipe too

also, if i press the gas pedal and hold it at a constant position ... the engine revs but then tappers off until it dies ... it's like i have to keep pumping it to keep the engine going ... once it warms up, i can hold it at a constant rpm

off to get some carb cleaner

**aviator** · 07-04-2009, 11:32 AM

Video sounded like you had a little toyota diesel in there lol...
maybe you could post another quick video showing the leak smoke you're talking about?

jungle_runner · 07-04-2009, 12:02 PM

pulled the codes, just getting 51 ... now let me see what that is ... google search says TPS ...

i noticed on 4crawler's page a post that mentions that can cause poor idle, engine stall, and inability to set timing ... maybe the jolt through that out of wack too

algranger · 07-04-2009, 12:15 PM

Urban wheeling FOR THE WIN!!!! Lockers help

jungle_runner · 07-04-2009, 01:35 PM

started testing the TPS using the guidelines provided here: http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/TPS/index.shtml

but i am getting an open circuit (1) on the first test with the throttle all the way closed ... the ohm meter gives a reading for a split second (varying between 70 to 150 ohms) and then just shows 1 ... here is the settings i am using on the ohm meter (it's set at 200):

when i change to a different setting such as 2k or 20k i get decimal read outs such as .534, i believe that 200 is the right reading range since i am looking for a ohm reading of 200-800 for the first test

so is my TPS completely bad? i'm getting diagnostic code 51
do i need a new one or can this one be serviced?

thanks

06-23-2009, 06:12 PM	#2 (permalink)
jungle_runner Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 172	i should add that when driving after the loud tapping started, i had to give engine a little gas at stops to keep it running or it would stall __________________ The Jungle Runner 88 4runner, 22re, 2" 4crawler body lift, custom aluminum interior panels and lock box, Downey Air Intake, Procomp 31x10.5 M/T Tires, My 1st Yota 4x4, purchased March 07 My business: ProgressiveApps.com

06-23-2009, 06:26 PM	#3 (permalink)
yoterr Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Inverness,FL Posts: 1,058	might have busted those worn out timing guides and the chain jumped a tooth? tapping noise would be the chain slapping the timing cover and the idleing rough would be the engine out of time? just a thought __________________ new to me 86' toy on 35" procomp mud terrains, with a 4" lift and 3" body and palm fron camo for now... 04' Dodge 2500 4x4 QC hemi leveled, home made CAI and flowmaster exhaust

06-23-2009, 06:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
jungle_runner Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 172	yoterr, thank you for the reply yes, looked at the guides/dampers, still not sure if they are sometimes called dampers as well ... they look broken when looking down on them with timing cover still on In-store Metal Timing Guides in Southern California!?!?! Anyone!?!?! Know a place?!?! guy on the phone at autozone said, metal guides are louder. ha!! it's all about utility, not luxury ... i have the top off most of the time anyway __________________ The Jungle Runner 88 4runner, 22re, 2" 4crawler body lift, custom aluminum interior panels and lock box, Downey Air Intake, Procomp 31x10.5 M/T Tires, My 1st Yota 4x4, purchased March 07 My business: ProgressiveApps.com Last edited by jungle_runner; 06-23-2009 at 06:47 PM.

06-23-2009, 07:26 PM	#6 (permalink)
jungle_runner Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 172	iamsuperbleeder, you're the best! thanks for taking the time to write this up AND post some awesome photos! you that photo of the broken guide vs the new ones on the engine really made it clear to me that they are in fact broken ... i am going to order the LCE or engnbldr kit and support the guys who support us ... thank you again __________________ The Jungle Runner 88 4runner, 22re, 2" 4crawler body lift, custom aluminum interior panels and lock box, Downey Air Intake, Procomp 31x10.5 M/T Tires, My 1st Yota 4x4, purchased March 07 My business: ProgressiveApps.com

06-23-2009, 07:31 PM	#7 (permalink)
iamsuperbleeder Contributing Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Casselberry, Fl Posts: 5,252	no problem buddy; we do what we can __________________ 91 PU, 4wd, manual, 22re, .30-over, engnbldr RV head and 261 cam, MC 1200lbs clutch, misc LCE, engnbldr, and MC parts and HW, Pacesetter header and exhaust kit, Rancho UCA's , 4Crawler 1" diff and sway bar drop and 1.5" BJ spacers, WabFab 3.5" shackles, 31x10.5 pavement-pounding ATs on ProComp Extreme Alloys, misc SR5 interior goodies swapped in, 1000watt stereo system MySpace

07-03-2009, 03:20 PM	#8 (permalink)
jungle_runner Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 172	i just finished rebuilding the front end and started up the engine ... still the loud tapping sound ... i took the valve cover off (knowing that oil would spray every where) and started the engine again because i wanted to be sure it wasn't a rocker hitting the cover ... still the same noise it sounds like the noise is coming from the rocker assembly near the rear of the engine do you think i need to rebuild the cam shaft/rocker assembly? could it be a valve? any ideas on how to deduce where the problem is coming from? i can't keep the engine running for more than a few seconds because of the oil spray thanks __________________ The Jungle Runner 88 4runner, 22re, 2" 4crawler body lift, custom aluminum interior panels and lock box, Downey Air Intake, Procomp 31x10.5 M/T Tires, My 1st Yota 4x4, purchased March 07 My business: ProgressiveApps.com

07-03-2009, 03:32 PM	#10 (permalink)
jungle_runner Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 172	hmmm ... i thought about that ... that it could be exhaust ... but the noise seems more like metallic tapping ... but i will go check that right now ... thanks abecedarian __________________ The Jungle Runner 88 4runner, 22re, 2" 4crawler body lift, custom aluminum interior panels and lock box, Downey Air Intake, Procomp 31x10.5 M/T Tires, My 1st Yota 4x4, purchased March 07 My business: ProgressiveApps.com

07-03-2009, 04:23 PM	#12 (permalink)
jungle_runner Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 172	ok, i checked the exhaust from the block to the cat and every looks ok i just took some video of the engine running and will post once i finish processing it also, the engine dies even though the idle is strong and smooth, it's like there is some resistance somewhere once again, still does it with the valve cover off i'm thinking that it may be down near the flywheel now thanks for the replies everyone, i would love to get this fixed tonight so that i can finally go home, and be back for the holiday weekend __________________ The Jungle Runner 88 4runner, 22re, 2" 4crawler body lift, custom aluminum interior panels and lock box, Downey Air Intake, Procomp 31x10.5 M/T Tires, My 1st Yota 4x4, purchased March 07 My business: ProgressiveApps.com

07-03-2009, 05:26 PM	#14 (permalink)
jungle_runner Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 172	ok, now i'm kind of thinking that it is an exhaust leak because i see exhaust coming out near the manifold would the lack of back pressure cause the engine to die when at low idle? thanks __________________ The Jungle Runner 88 4runner, 22re, 2" 4crawler body lift, custom aluminum interior panels and lock box, Downey Air Intake, Procomp 31x10.5 M/T Tires, My 1st Yota 4x4, purchased March 07 My business: ProgressiveApps.com

07-03-2009, 05:54 PM	#15 (permalink)
dutchboy Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Land Of The Lollipop Kids (Lancaster,Pa). Posts: 271	This sounds like one of my farm tractors...with an exhaust leak. Hmmm... __________________ 1990 4runner SR5 3.0 (3vz-e) All options. Bone stock. Automatic w/overdrive and cruise control. 232,000 miles. Oil pump replaced @ 186,000,head gaskets at 188,000. 15-17mpg. My girls.Lisse' & Jessi http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/m...SC00714200.jpg I AM LOOKING FOR THESE PART:Front passenger,inner fender.http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/m...00outlined.jpg MW 1990 Toyota 4Runner 4DR Road Test http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYTHIa6RNRA

07-03-2009, 06:10 PM	#16 (permalink)
jungle_runner Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 172	yep, definitely an exhaust leak ... i tighten up the bolts near the rear of the exhaust manifold and the noise has dramatically reduced ... wow! now i know (and you know (for the other noobs)) what an exhaust leak can sound like, thanks every one i still would like to know if an exhaust leak (not having enough back pressure) would cause the engine to die? ... i just want to be sure that this is what is probably causing that to happen ... my intuition says yes, but i'd like a second opinion thanks __________________ The Jungle Runner 88 4runner, 22re, 2" 4crawler body lift, custom aluminum interior panels and lock box, Downey Air Intake, Procomp 31x10.5 M/T Tires, My 1st Yota 4x4, purchased March 07 My business: ProgressiveApps.com

07-04-2009, 04:18 AM	#18 (permalink)
jungle_runner Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 172	it's 4am, i've been working on my truck since 11am this morning and have been putting in 6 or more hours every day for the last week ... i really need to get this done ... here's the update: ran to autozone and picked up a new manifold gasket, flange rings, and the red silicone sealant ... even though one bolt into the head seems to be stripped, the exhaust leak is now audibly gone, no tapping noise ... i figure that the jolt to the frame on the concrete broke loose the gasket's seal on the manifold ... upon inspection, it was a very old, cracked gasket i probably mentioned before that the timing guides were broken as well (don't know how long that had been broken or if it happened at the same time as the exhaust leak), so new guides, chain, gears, tensioner, and gaskets have all been installed the engine started stalling at idle as soon as the exhaust leak started making it's noise, but now, with the exhaust leak fixed, the engine is still stalling at idle and sputtering at higher rpms timing off? lost compression? some sensor that also simultaneously went bad during the jolt? timing? the light links of the timing chain are matched up with the dimple on cam gear and crank gear, tried distributor one tooth advanced and retarded, but the original location runs best lost compression? it looks like all my vacuum lines are in place. i did remove the a/c compressor and it's radiator while i was taking apart the front end, and i don't plan to put them back in a sensor malfunctioning? o2? afm? tps? egr? could any of these cause the engine to stall at idle? thanks in advance for any ideas ... my eyelids are heavy ... got to z zzz zz zz z zzz __________________ The Jungle Runner 88 4runner, 22re, 2" 4crawler body lift, custom aluminum interior panels and lock box, Downey Air Intake, Procomp 31x10.5 M/T Tires, My 1st Yota 4x4, purchased March 07 My business: ProgressiveApps.com

07-04-2009, 09:51 AM	#20 (permalink)
jungle_runner Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 172	i'm going to try spraying carb cleaner around the engine to see if there are any open areas on the intake side ... maybe the intake gasket is cracked like the exhaust was __________________ The Jungle Runner 88 4runner, 22re, 2" 4crawler body lift, custom aluminum interior panels and lock box, Downey Air Intake, Procomp 31x10.5 M/T Tires, My 1st Yota 4x4, purchased March 07 My business: ProgressiveApps.com

07-04-2009, 10:17 AM	#21 (permalink)
jungle_runner Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 172	also, there is white smoke coming from the engine on the exhaust side ... i thought it may just be the white lithium lube i used in the oil pump burning off, but it is staying pretty consistent, especially when the engine is rev'd ... the white smoke is coming out of the tail pipe too also, if i press the gas pedal and hold it at a constant position ... the engine revs but then tappers off until it dies ... it's like i have to keep pumping it to keep the engine going ... once it warms up, i can hold it at a constant rpm off to get some carb cleaner __________________ The Jungle Runner 88 4runner, 22re, 2" 4crawler body lift, custom aluminum interior panels and lock box, Downey Air Intake, Procomp 31x10.5 M/T Tires, My 1st Yota 4x4, purchased March 07 My business: ProgressiveApps.com

07-04-2009, 11:32 AM	#22 (permalink)
aviator Super Moderator Staff Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: COTKU,Ontario,Canada Posts: 7,472	Video sounded like you had a little toyota diesel in there lol... maybe you could post another quick video showing the leak smoke you're talking about? __________________ Silver 1994 Hilux Xtra cab 4x4 3.0 K&N cone filter, ported MAF, advanced timing, oversize exhaust, free flow cat, "rumble" muffler custom covered SR5 seats, map lights, factory AC tv4184 style black interior conversion started mods to come... header, custom centre console, stereo upgrade tinted windows Founding member 1972TLC fan club - Get well soon Mary Toyota Hilux... Get in or Get out of the way.

07-04-2009, 12:02 PM	#23 (permalink)
jungle_runner Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 172	pulled the codes, just getting 51 ... now let me see what that is ... google search says TPS ... i noticed on 4crawler's page a post that mentions that can cause poor idle, engine stall, and inability to set timing ... maybe the jolt through that out of wack too __________________ The Jungle Runner 88 4runner, 22re, 2" 4crawler body lift, custom aluminum interior panels and lock box, Downey Air Intake, Procomp 31x10.5 M/T Tires, My 1st Yota 4x4, purchased March 07 My business: ProgressiveApps.com Last edited by jungle_runner; 07-04-2009 at 12:05 PM.

07-04-2009, 12:15 PM	#24 (permalink)
algranger Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Here in the PNW Posts: 3,264	Urban wheeling FOR THE WIN!!!! Lockers help __________________ . . . I said lie, for me lying under a process tree . . . .

07-04-2009, 01:35 PM	#25 (permalink)
jungle_runner Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 172	started testing the TPS using the guidelines provided here: http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/TPS/index.shtml but i am getting an open circuit (1) on the first test with the throttle all the way closed ... the ohm meter gives a reading for a split second (varying between 70 to 150 ohms) and then just shows 1 ... here is the settings i am using on the ohm meter (it's set at 200): when i change to a different setting such as 2k or 20k i get decimal read outs such as .534, i believe that 200 is the right reading range since i am looking for a ohm reading of 200-800 for the first test so is my TPS completely bad? i'm getting diagnostic code 51 do i need a new one or can this one be serviced? thanks __________________ The Jungle Runner 88 4runner, 22re, 2" 4crawler body lift, custom aluminum interior panels and lock box, Downey Air Intake, Procomp 31x10.5 M/T Tires, My 1st Yota 4x4, purchased March 07 My business: ProgressiveApps.com

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