Blown Headgasket- It CAN happen to you - Page 2

TNRabbit · 06-29-2009, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuRunner93

Yeah, you're right TNRabbit. I got my lines crossed in my manual and saw the 142psi minimum as the standard. With the compression in the good cylinders basically normal, what's my most logical conclusion? This is now the 3rd HG to blow on this engine...the original, the recall, and now this one. What could cause chronic HG problems?

1. Head or block not decked properly.
2. Improper torquing procedure.
3. Sucky aftermarket HG.

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jackwolf · 06-29-2009, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuRunner93

So I joined the blown head gasket club last week and I need some expert advice. I built the engine (3vze) about 2 years and 15,000 miles ago. The heads had to have a bunch of metal shaved off to get them back true and smooth, so the compression in each cylinder is now up around 170 psi. I'm thinking that this is what caused the gasket to blow. So, I need to find out if anyone makes a reinforced head gasket for the 3vze engine that can handle the higher compression. Any suggestions? Thanks.

The problem is the different expansion rates of the the two metals in the block and the head, not so much the 170psi.

A FEL-PRO head set should do it for you.

Look at:

HS 9728 PT-1

It should have everything you need.

Also, your heads are warped and that is why they had to shave them flat. Never forget that warped heads are going back in, they have just been shaved flat so they can crush the head gasket, real nice.

Warped heads are nothing new. Especially, on Harley Davidson Evolution engines. They ALL either have warped heads or an oil leak. The shop manual even has a tolerance range for warped heads in these engines.

But that is another song and dance for another place and time.

Dirt Driver · 06-29-2009, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackwolf

The problem is the different expansion rates of the the two metals in the block and the head,

This seems to be a topic often brought up and seldom the case from what I have seen. The 3VZ-E is one of those engines that has inherent problems keeping head gaskets. The 22R-E also has an iron block topped with aluminum and BHGs do happen, but are comparatively rare. It's the same case with the 1JZ-GTE and 2JZ-GTE, but the 7M-GTE is not so tolerant without milling the head/deck and a good gasket.

Jay351 · 06-29-2009, 02:00 PM

Not really... The 22re blows headgaskets just as fast as the 3vze. Heck when you do the timing chain you are supposed to remove the head anyways. Last night I was reading a t-chain thread and 4 people in a row posted that their 22re hg blew that day..

Toyota always had headgaskets problems... Never really got it right.

jackwolf · 06-29-2009, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay351

Not really... The 22re blows headgaskets just as fast as the 3vze. Heck when you do the timing chain you are supposed to remove the head anyways. Last night I was reading a t-chain thread and 4 people in a row posted that their 22re hg blew that day..

Toyota always had headgaskets problems... Never really got it right.

It just seems like more of a chore when the 3VZE does it since, I believe, that there are some hot shots out there that can change a head gasket in a 22re faster than a person, not mechanically inclined, can rotate the tires.

My money is on the hotshot and the 22re.
but on the other when the 3VZE is involved. Bring a shoe horn.

I am going to stick with the expansion rate theory and I do so because it all revolves around, for the most part, the quality of the head gaskets. Toyota got the first batch, on the 3VZE, wrong. That is a for sure and not a for maybe.

You might be able to get away with cast iron heads on a cast iron block and NO head gasket AND you could do the same with the aluminum heads on a cast iron block but you would never get away with it.

Toyota did get it wrong. Not only was it a poor design the head gasket materials were substandard but only because of the mis matched metals involved. Cast iron heads would have made the sub standard factory gasket, for the most part, a non issue on the 3VZE. Or had the 3VZE been a an aluminum block and aluminum heads combo, that same sub standard head gasket would have sitting pretty.

Yes there are long lists of examples of mis matched metals on engines that are reliable but not because the are better designed, they may or may not be. In mismatched metal mating, the quality of the gasket is going to make you or break you at the end of the day when everything else has been weighed and measured.

annoyingrob · 06-29-2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay351

Toyota always had headgaskets problems... Never really got it right.

The 1JZ-GTE and 2JZ-GTE run multi-layer-steel (MLS) head gaskets from the factory. I think they did something right with those. How many JZ motors do you hear about with blown head gaskets?

DupermanDave · 06-29-2009, 03:52 PM

Be grateful it's headgaskets that blow and not anything mechanical like a valve or a sensor. Gaskets are cheap, but the sensors and labor isnt.

What about those copper sheet headgaskets from LC engineering. Are those worth the $120?

jackwolf · 06-29-2009, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annoyingrob

The 1JZ-GTE and 2JZ-GTE run multi-layer-steel (MLS) head gaskets from the factory. I think they did something right with those.

X2

The MLS gaskets are superduper and I'm pretty sure that you can get them installed on a 3VZE but you need some mill work done. Which is why people just go with FELPRO or even the second batch head gaskets from Toyota or what ever flavor floats their boat and does not require mill work.

Dirt Driver · 06-29-2009, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay351

Not really... The 22re blows headgaskets just as fast as the 3vze.

That's must be why there are about 100 threads about blown 3VZ-E head gaskets for every single one involving a 22R-E and that the 22R-E was never issued a recall like the 3VZ-E.....

DupermanDave · 06-29-2009, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirt Driver

That's must be why there are about 100 threads about blown 3VZ-E head gaskets for every single one involving a 22R-E and that the 22R-E was never issued a recall like the 3VZ-E.....

X2

so what about those copper gaskets? Are they worth it?

91Toyota · 06-29-2009, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirt Driver

That's must be why there are about 100 threads about blown 3VZ-E head gaskets for every single one involving a 22R-E and that the 22R-E was never issued a recall like the 3VZ-E.....

x3

Dirt Driver · 06-30-2009, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DupermanDave

X2

so what about those copper gaskets? Are they worth it?

The most common complaint I hear, regardless of engine, is that they tend to seep coolant until everything warms up.

annoyingrob · 07-03-2009, 08:04 AM

yeah copper gaskets are a pain to seal properly. Steel gaskets are good, but you need the head and block machined as flat as possible to prevent them from leaking too. The benefit of copper is that they're usually reusable. You can get a copper adhesive spray for copper head gaskets, but I have my doubts about it.

Standard composite head gaskets are fine for 99% of the people out there. Unless you plan on running boost, a standard composite head gasket, and a good set of head studs are pretty damn good. If you're planning on running some super-high compression or lots of forced induction, look into metal.

stormin94 · 07-03-2009, 01:23 PM

Ok so the heads are off, and I found the culprit. The rear right (drivers side) cylinder blew the headgasket. Included in the headgasket replacement will be: new exhaust manifold gaskets, new intake manifold gaskets, new head bolts. Also, some accessory-related items: new powersteering return line(it leaks) new A/C line(s) -whichever one leaks when we pull vacuum on the system.

On an interesting note, my timing belt tensioner pully seized shortly after removal. Very good timing to have that fail now, rather than down the road somewhere.

TNRabbit · 07-03-2009, 02:06 PM

Replace the upper idler while you're in there. Odds are it will be squealing in about 10k miles if you don't...

I HIGHLY recommend you use MLS gaskets & get both the heads & block resurfaced. I had to replace a HG 8k miles after rebuilding my entire engine due to not having them resurfaced...

DupermanDave · 07-03-2009, 02:54 PM

Why don't they make flexible and non-breakable gaskets? like an RTV gasket? Could you even use copper RTV for a headgasket?

Im just curious because after so many technological advancements (we've made it to the moon, for pete's sake!) we still can't overcome headgasket mechanics.

annoyingrob · 07-03-2009, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DupermanDave

Why don't they make flexible and non-breakable gaskets? like an RTV gasket? Could you even use copper RTV for a headgasket?

Im just curious because after so many technological advancements (we've made it to the moon, for pete's sake!) we still can't overcome headgasket mechanics.

The head gasket is under incredible amounts of heat and perssure. RTV just wouldn't hold up. It can't even hold up to the exhaust heat after it's left the motor.

The problem isn't so much the gasket itself though, it's how the gasket it held in place. A head gasket is only about 1-1.5mm thick. They have a lot of strength on the edge, but as soon as you let it flap around up and down, it's going to fail. As long as it's held tightly between the head and block, it won't fail.

You say we can't overcome ead gasket mechanics. We HAVE overcome them. Yes, Toyota made a few mistakes with a few models of motors, but most of their other models are fine. The reason why you keep seeing so many motors like the 3VZ, or 7M blowing head gaskets time and time again is usually because even if they are replaced, they are replaced using 'flawed' factory specifications.

A stock Toyota head gasket will hold for a long long time, but ONLY if the surfaces are flat and smooth, and ONLY if they are properly clamped down. If you're replacing the gasket with another composite material, the head needs to be machined. The head and gasket are actually designed to warp upon compression, and fill in any small imperfections. The block is usually flat enough to not worry about. If you are installing a metal head gasket, BOTH surfaces NEED to be machined. Not for flatness, but for SMOOTHNESS. A metal head gasket isn't as forgiving in filling in cracks and dips in the surface.

A metal head gasket isn't for everyone. There's a lot of extra work required to pull out the block, and dismantle it to get it machined, but whatever you install, I urge you, SPEND THE EXTRA MONEY ON HEAD STUDS. Head bolts can provide some vastly inaccurate torque readings. Spend the extra 200 bucks, and buy a set of ARP head studs. You're talking about a motor that's KNOWN to have head bolt issues. Eliminate the weak component. It's not like they're terribly expensive.

stormin94 · 07-03-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annoyingrob

Spend the extra 200 bucks, and buy a set of ARP head studs. You're talking about a motor that's KNOWN to have head bolt issues. Eliminate the weak component. It's not like they're terribly expensive.

$200 is pretty expensive. My head gaskets, and most of the other components cost around $500. (Although my cost was only around $250)

TNRabbit · 07-04-2009, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormin94

$200 is pretty expensive. My head gaskets, and most of the other components cost around $500. (Although my cost was only around $250)

If you have to do it again, it will be expensive~

06-29-2009, 02:00 PM	#29 (permalink)
Jay351 Contributing Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: maple ridge, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 8,630	Not really... The 22re blows headgaskets just as fast as the 3vze. Heck when you do the timing chain you are supposed to remove the head anyways. Last night I was reading a t-chain thread and 4 people in a row posted that their 22re hg blew that day.. Toyota always had headgaskets problems... Never really got it right. __________________ 91 Pickup - xcab - 5sp - 3.0 - SR5 - 4x4 - 250k \|2.25" catback w/ magnaflow cat + glasspack \| Weasy2k cams \| Aisin manual hubs \| Diff breather mod\| Marlin HD clutch \|3" BL \| es3000's \|2" AAL \|1.5" bj spacers \| ISR \| Alpine headunit \| 4" Infinity fronts/5" rears \| 4.88's \|Rear lockright \| 33x12.50" BFG M/T on 15x8" steelies \|Hella 500's \|4" reverse lights\| Grant GT \|idler arm brace\|hella E-codes\| Marlin armor \|SS IFS brace \| %100 Amsoil synthetic http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2572486

06-29-2009, 03:52 PM	#32 (permalink)
DupermanDave Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Northern Colorado :-( Posts: 1,280	Be grateful it's headgaskets that blow and not anything mechanical like a valve or a sensor. Gaskets are cheap, but the sensors and labor isnt. What about those copper sheet headgaskets from LC engineering. Are those worth the $120? __________________ 1989 Toyota pickup 22re - K&N filter with custom air intake

07-03-2009, 08:04 AM	#38 (permalink)
annoyingrob Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Calgary, AB Posts: 649	yeah copper gaskets are a pain to seal properly. Steel gaskets are good, but you need the head and block machined as flat as possible to prevent them from leaking too. The benefit of copper is that they're usually reusable. You can get a copper adhesive spray for copper head gaskets, but I have my doubts about it. Standard composite head gaskets are fine for 99% of the people out there. Unless you plan on running boost, a standard composite head gasket, and a good set of head studs are pretty damn good. If you're planning on running some super-high compression or lots of forced induction, look into metal. __________________ 86 SR5 Turbo pickup Fiberglass bed, Fiberglass Fenders. 91 1.5JZ GT40 Supra. 77 Celica Liftback. (WTB: 20R Carb!)

07-03-2009, 01:23 PM	#39 (permalink)
stormin94 Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Lake County, CA/Sacramento Posts: 3,535	Update: Ok so the heads are off, and I found the culprit. The rear right (drivers side) cylinder blew the headgasket. Included in the headgasket replacement will be: new exhaust manifold gaskets, new intake manifold gaskets, new head bolts. Also, some accessory-related items: new powersteering return line(it leaks) new A/C line(s) -whichever one leaks when we pull vacuum on the system. On an interesting note, my timing belt tensioner pully seized shortly after removal. Very good timing to have that fail now, rather than down the road somewhere. __________________ 1994 Toyota 4Runner SR5 4X4 213,000 miles and counting 3.0 V6, 5 speed 10/15 MPG city/hwy(with 33's) Current Mods Headers, 2.5" Flowmaster custom exhaust, K&N FIPK KC Daylighter 100 Watt lights Ranchos x4, 2" Lift Downey coils 33-12.50 M/T's, 1" t-bar lift, 1" body lift Tow pkg w/ lighthookups Silverstar Headlights, Pioneer Deck w/XM Brushguard 250Watt JLAudio 8" W3 Sub Future Mods 12V Aux outlet-400/800peak inverter roof basket/lights Air locker 4.88 gears H.O. Alternator

07-03-2009, 02:54 PM	#41 (permalink)
DupermanDave Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Northern Colorado :-( Posts: 1,280	Why don't they make flexible and non-breakable gaskets? like an RTV gasket? Could you even use copper RTV for a headgasket? Im just curious because after so many technological advancements (we've made it to the moon, for pete's sake!) we still can't overcome headgasket mechanics. __________________ 1989 Toyota pickup 22re - K&N filter with custom air intake

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