FredTJ

Huh ???





Fred

bob200587

CO2.........I'm polluting with every breath.

Barnstormer

Do some reading about e85. Especially for your Chevelle. With the right tuning, it will run great on e85, power wise. E85 is between 100-105 octane, so its great that way. Even your runner can be tuned (not as easily) to run fine on E85. Read around about it, there is tons of info. I'm experimenting with running E85 (in different blends with normal unleaded) in my 88 22re. We'll see how it goes.
Good luck

RC000E

Having tuned several high hp cars on E85, I have to say there's some serious misconceptions going on here.

Addressing the "old Chevelle" not running on unleaded fuel, the facts are lead was primarily an ingredient in older fuels due to it's ability to raise the octane number. In addition lead, when burned, created lead salts which were deposited on the chamber surfaces, valve seats, and cylinder walls. The lead salts lubricated the "soft" valve seats of the time and were said to reduce wear.

The fact is, that when many countries switched to unleaded, the knock issue was much more profound, than the valve recession or erosion issue. In many ways, the removal of lead improves the ability of the engine oil to maintain viscosity, it improves emissions, and it keeps valves and plugs cleaner. It was found that only vehicle that saw frequent use, and high load and speeds truly experienced notable wear.

So, your core issue is knock resistance. This rolls into the E85 issue. There's some facts about E85. E85 has a high octane rating, which is certainly a good thing for high compression. The problem is, that E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) contains roughly a third less potential heat energy than standard unleaded gasoline. This means that to create the same amount of internal heat energy, you need to burn roughly 30% more by volume.

O2 sensors can function to determine proper burn ratio's for either gasoline, or E85....it makes no difference. Gasoline's stochiometric burn ratio is 14.7:1, and E85's is about 9.77:1. O2's don't care what's going on though because they are lamba sensors and measure oxygen content...period.

O2 sensors can make air/fuel adjustments properly then, but the issue is they can only do so when the ecu considers the O2's input, which is closed loop mode. This mode is only at partial throttle and load situations. Going wide open throttle will just lead to a lean condition and a huge drop in power...with engine damage quite possible.

As I stated though, the high octane benefits of E85 have already led to many high power street cars. I've tuned several turbo'd Honda's that made in excess of 450whp on what is essentially "pump gas". The only issue is you need a fuel system capable of making 650whp or so on gasoline to make 450whp on E85. In addition gas mileage does indeed suffer.

The corrosion issue some claim, in my experience, just doesn't exist. Ethanol has been in gasoline, in small quantities, for years. Vehicles have been capable of withstanding it, so running it doesn't have any impact unless your talking a vehicle from the 80's.

If you want to run E85 on a 4runner, or a Chevelle it's simple. You need a standalone management system, the fuel system upgrades necessary to meet demand, and professional tuning by someone that understands the nature of E85.

dcg9381

A few comments:
1) I've run 100LL - it's cheap. Some small airports have a pay-at-the-pump setup for planes when the airport isn't in "operation" - out where I live, it costs about the same as premium. "LL" is Low Lead - but it's quite leaded. I destroyed a wideband 02 sensor in about 8 gallons. It'll do something similiar to narrowbands and may impact catalitic converters.

2) E85: There are a few "stock" EFI toyota guys trying this stuff. They swear up and down that it works, but having run it with no other changes, I can say that it runs like @#$@#. Adjusting my tuning to it (via standalone) it runs great - and the turbo loves it.
If I was going to try it - with a stock vehicle, I'd put 20-25% larger injectors on there and then fill it up. My guess is that you can live with it in this fuel range. Mileage will drop, power will be down slightly.

Dublin

Ok The ECU and sensors bit makes sense for the 4Runner, what about the injectors (fact or myth). Will they function as always or will they fail, I've heard both. This BTW is the main concern of this topic. As for the car I may try it once, but I firmly believe E85 will not perform near what TEL (leaded) gas will. Maybe NASCAR is just ignorant using leaded gas, I don't think so. As far as retuning and adjusting to perform better I'm no stranger to that, with a 1970 big block, solid lifters, 750 CFM dual feed carb and dual point distributor you are in constant need of re-tuning. It's part of the fun of owning it. With a matchbook, screw driver and an ear trained to hear what you know is right, my Chevelle will still do better than most HP ricers at 1/10th the cost. I've had it for 32 years and I know what works, when NASCAR opts for E85 I'll change, But it isn't going to happen in my lifetime.

RC000E

No offense, but this is a statement of ignorance. You clearly judge that which you don't understand, and if your going to base your direction on the direction of Nascar, well....that's your choice.

I agree, that there's alot to be learned from Nascar, in that they've pushed the limits of the pushrod/carb combo. The world has learned much by way of crankcase vacuum benefits, and headflow technology, but it's in no way the premier arena. By your thinking, we should all follow Nascars lead, so carb'd pushrod V8's and leaded fuel is where it's at?

Here's an E85 tuned Mustang, since low displacement/extremely high hp motors isn't worth your time or respect.

SEAIRESCUE

I set up a simple experiment with E85 in an 87 Turbo 22 RET. As pointed out, the energy per gallon of E85 is much less than gasoline. To its benefit, it has 105 octane rating. As further highlighted, you got to burn much more E85 to do the same work as gasoline. I knew that my EFI system would compensate to a point when blending E85 with gasoline. At roughly 40 percent mix, my check engine light came on. If you got an early carburetor 22r you can change the jets and dump more E85 to the point of running on 100 percent. However, you will no longer be able to run regular gas without switching back to your stock jet. Racing cars have been running ethanol and methanol alcohol for decades so it can be done. I did not experience any problems running a 10 -20 percent blend for over a year. Also, the E85 created some cold morning hard starts. Its not a good value when its price is equal to regular gasoline.

My $0.02

Dublin

Not offened, but not ignorant. I agree that todays technologies have proven performance enhancements and have only started to scratch the surface. I only pointed out that with a simple dinosaur of an engine burning dino fuel can still compete with the best. No computed ratios, no sensors, no high dollar technical adjusting. Yes I totally agree on what can be done, but it's not going to be done to a classic (not mine anyway). It kinda defeats the reason to have it.

But still I would like a definitive answer to the original question or at least the last part of it. Will I need to replace the injectors on the 4Runner to run properly over the long run or will there be no problems. It makes sense the ECU will compensate for some correction, but I've still heard a lot about potential injector and seal failure. shead some light please.

RC000E

No, they can't compete against the best...just themselves. If you want to look at the best, look to F1. That is my bug with NASCAR...I can appreciate getting the most from something, but that form of racing is like stunted in time. Two valves per cylinder, carb'd, pushrods...it's old as the hills.

Look to F1 if you want to see technology pushed to the limit. Look at some Honda heads then, and what you see is F1 technology for the street. Pentroof'd fastburn chambers, 4 valves/cylinder, variable cam lift and timing, square geometry bottom ends, etc. There's a reason the import vehicles are making V8 power with 1.8 liters.


To answer your question, no you don't need an injector upgrade, in the sense that you don't need something to resist any wear or potential failure. Like I've stated though, E85 requires about 30% more volume than gasoline to reach the same lambda values and be safe. I will assure you though, E85 has MANY benefits over leaded fuels. Properly tuned, E85 will generally yield about an 8-10% increase in output over high octane gasoline. E85 burns cooler and quicker.

Dublin

So your saying the higher volume that burning E85 requires can be handled by the factory injectors. After checking it seems any seals for combustion engines after 1990 should be OK for higher ethanol mixes, but I keep seeing differing opinions on changing injector size and also additional ECU modifications (mainly for power increase) as well. Even with modifications mileage will suffer a bit and with current E85 prices it doesn't give much incentive to change. So without any modifications and the assumption the 4Runner can run well with E85, is it safe to assume I will get even less power (with our beloved 3.Slow) and decreased fuel economy. It's already been stated E85 is a bit less in cost with a lower MPG which seems to make it a draw with conventional unleaded, except for E85's GREEN status.

dcg9381

I've done a lot of playing with these trucks and fuel injection. I'm not an expert on stock injection, but I do know a little bit about how it functions.

At idle, the you're operating in open loop - IE, no 02 sensor. The ECU is not correcting and you'll be running lean on E85. The thing is, the factory truck idles rich, somewhere in the 12-13:1 AFR range (stock). The resulting AFR on E85 is going to be lean, but E85 plays nice over a much wider range of AFR. It won't run as well, but it probably will run.
You'll have cold start issues. Priming squirts of fuel aren't close for E85. If it gets really cold, you need a lot of E85 to start.


When cruising you'll go into closed loop. The 02 sensor will correct mixture - it may throw a check engine light eventually (lean) - but it will run fine. Most factory EFI systems have a limited range of 02 correction and Toyota hasn't told us how much is allowed. If the ECU can do +/-20-25%, you probably won't notice a much of a difference.

Yes, mileage drops. Yes it is a less expensive fuel. Depending on price, the savings vs mpg may be a wash.

The change is power really isn't significant per butt-o-meter.
Turbo truck? The increased exhaust flow gets me 2-3 PSI more. 105 octane = completely quiet knock sensor.

I wouldn't run this on a factory turbo truck. Depite it's 105 octane, you're going to be running lean under boost.

Unknown if the factory injectors can handle E85 long term - I've asked a few people and can't get a definitive answer.

Want to run this long term w/o a programmable ECU, increase your stock injector size 20-25% - it'll bring you in close to where you should be. You will not be able to switch back to gas w/o injector change, but it should get you with a decent fuel map.

Dublin

Thanks dcg9381, exactly what I'm looking for. Actual real experience with E85 in an older Toyota. It's better than "sure you can run it". Any real experiences with programmable ECU's based on Flex, I've read about a few that will allow using unleaded and E85. Full Flex is the most prominent supplier, reviews look good and the price doesn't seem too outrageous. They imply factory injectors will work, but increasing the size still makes sense and possibly a better option to still use both?

dcg9381

Have a link? The "E85" conversions I've seen are largely black box. It's simply a box that increase injector pulse width by 20-30% Don't confuse this with ECU replacement - it's a piggy back deal.



Most factory injectors are setup so that they adequately meet the needs of power level. Typically, they're designed so that they won't exceed 80% duty cycle at peak fuel consumption. This means that you can still "overdrive" the injectors by another 20% temporarily. Also, as you're not operating at peak power all the time, the injectors are adequate except for peak power levels.

You can't use the black box solution in combination with larger injectors. They're both designed to give you a multiplier on fuel.

Dublin

Yes, it does look like a piggyback to the ECU http://www.fuelflexint.com/
So it looks like I have 2 options. #1 increase injector size and lose backwards compatibility or #2 conversion and lose peak power performance. I guess in the short term choice #2 would be best in the long term #1 would be better providing the E85 gains more availability which it should being a mainly renewable source. Does that sound about right?.

dcg9381

One advantage to #2 is that they advertise their system as self-adjusting... That is it's capable of detecting gasoline/ethanol mix and adjusting. Megasquirt just started to support this feature and it's already being done with flex fuel vehicles.

Right now I have two tunes and not much in between. I almost got stranded once pulling up to the pump, didn't have my laptop and the E85 pump was closed.

Last, there is a 3rd option - an increase in fuel pressure... Go up 20-30% in fuel pressure via a fuel pressure regulator. With a gauge it would be fairly easy to adjust if you had to do it.


You can try 25% E85 now and see if you feel any difference. There are guys that have run 100% E85 (see pirate) on a stock truck.

FredTJ

Which would be HUGELY expensive if they did it legally.
Brazil runs a lot of vehicles on 100%.




Fred