suprathepeg

Bumpin I love your willingness to get crazy but why not start low and work your way up?? What this engine needs is love not war, lol.

MonsterMaxx

The biggest question I have is: if a turbo/sc on the 3VZE is viable and reliable, why has no one done it and why isn't there a 'kit' on the market?


I think the answer to this is that many have tried and all have failed due to the inherent weakness of the 3VZE. The problems are more than just 'not enough fuel'. The 3.slow is doing real good to hold itself together when it's just naturally asperated w/ just 160HP at the crank. Adding 25-100% more power by packing more air and fuel in it can only lead to one thing - death of a 3VZE.


Go ahead and call places like Paxton (who did work on a 3VZE kit) and they'll tell you the same thing - if they'll even talk about it since it was such a failure for them.

Bumpin' Yota

actually maxx there are 2 people running around with FI on the 3vze. Chilton here and on 4x4wire, and another who posted in chilton's thread. The latter blew his HG after many many miles but chilton never did have any issues other than his clutch not want to hold...

i think everyone in the industry wont do anything for it because of the misconceptions surrounding a turbocharger and the dreaded HG issues. Besides these engine are what 3 generations old now? While there is a very small niche here I dont think it's 1/100th as large as say diesel modification or even applying FI to todays suvs and trucks.

But chilton's truck may be a farse and perhaps I am barking up a wrong tree, but in the past my 3vze has done me very well, so i at least wanna give it a good try!

dcg9381

Why isn't there a "kit" for the 2.4L EFI motor?
Answer is - because they're prohibitively expensive.
The supercharger that LC was branding for the 22RE didn't work so well...
The fact of the matter is that turbos whemselves are relatively inexpensive, but bolting a turbo or blower on an otherwise naturally aspirated engine usually asks for problems.

The only way to do it right is to change the engine management. That means both timing AND fuel. If you're able to do that and run at moderate boost levels, you can have a successful "kit". Problem is, that you're talking big money for aftermarket EFI and it may not be "street legal".

I'm a big proponent of megasquirt because for $300-$400, you now have programmable EFI, both timing and fuel. The problem is that the system is pretty complicated and is so generic that it doesn't integrate with specific motors very well unless someone does all the R&D.


The only inherent weakness of the 3VZE that I know of.. Not that I'm an expert.. is the head gasket design. The bottom end is quite stout, from my understanding. Again, fuel it properly, moderate boost, timing control, good head gaskets and ARP harware....

Big's calculations of peak injector flow are correct. Besides, with aftermarket EFI, you can retune for whatever injectors you want.



Sure, because paxton is used to building kits under a $3k budget.. They'll use a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, maybe a hobbs switch, and can't do timing control very easily on that 3VZE... Until you can do the EFI control, which typically adds big money - it simply can't be done with a reasonable budget.

suprathepeg

Someone somewhere has to have done MS on a 3vze.

MonsterMaxx

So we agree, right?
Not impossible, but prohibitivly expensive with marginal returns on such a large investment.


IMHO the 3VZE also has oiling issues, if you greatly increase the load on the bearings you will probably have failures.


Perhaps with a modern computer one of you could develop such a kit. I think that the R&D required to make it will be very expensive ($100k +.) But I have to say I wish you all the luck.
Personally I think you should chase the whipple SC & intercooler angle since your largest customer base will be a performance enthusiest and will likely already have headers & exhaust.
So, you'd need a SC, brackets & pulleys, Intercooler, piping, injectors and a computer. Simple


Does anyone know what our compression ratio is now? Looking at my new pistons I'd have to guess it's pretty low to begin with = good for FI

Bumpin' Yota

9.0:1 cr a full point below the 10.0:1 found on the 5vzfe.

dcg9381

No, I don't totally agree.. I understand why it's not a market that's being chased by aftermarket, but I think it could be done. I think you've got to be realistic about the cost however... And consider the costs of having someone build the plumbing.


Outside of head gasket issues, I regularly see 175k-200k mileage 3VZE's. I'd say that's fairly reliable. I am unaware of oiling issue. Oil pressure can usually be adjusted by spring pre-load at the oil pump.

Again, it's already been done on at least one 3VZE that I can find reference to. It didn't integrate with the stock ignition system, but instead replaced it with a Ford EDIS system, using a crank trigger. It's not something that I'd advise a beginner try, but it can be done - and for a lot less than 100k.

My guess is that FAST and/or SDS can probably be configured to work with the 3VZE also.


The turbo is less expensive. You'll need room for all that stuff...

Bumpin' Yota

Huh? Please do tell me more!! I HATE having my oil pressure rest around 5 PSI at idle. Id atleast like it to be at 10 or 15 at idle....

MonsterMaxx

+1
I'd say that's an oiling issue. The crank bearings on my deader looked like ˟˟˟˟, middle two were particularly ugly.

IMHO this is an oil cooling issue, though I can't say for sure.
My oil pressure was OK until the engine warmed up, then it's mediocre and when hot (running hard at highway speeds, AC on & a hot day) oil pressure would be 35psi @ 4000rpm and then when you'd stop and let it idle it'd drop to 5-10psi - on a really hot day it wouldn't register on the gauge.
FACTORY SPEC SAYS 5psi at idle is NORMAL.

I'm going to specifically target oil cooling in this next build to see if it can be helped.

suprathepeg

Only thing that is really bigger then the turbo would be adding a pulley. I'm looking at mounting the SC where the AC would bee no added space needed there. I still don't see how it will cost more. The turbo will be about the same as the SC but the plumbing will be easier, and I won't have to worry about exhaust pressures in the head as they will just flow out the headers and be gone. I don't plan on using an intercooler, I only want 5/6lbs of boost. I may not even need larger injectors .

I will have an oil cooler, larger T-stat and SMTP or MS before I ever look at the SC anyways. IMHO with what I've already done to my engine it should like FI alright. If you need better oiling I'll bet you can either get a pump from a 5vzfe or 3vzfe although I think they are all the same part IIRC and the 5vzfe takes lots of boost.

I know of at least 1 3.0 that is running with 12lbs of boost via SC on apparently stock internals and headers. IIRC Ted built the engine for the guy and the guy did the SC himself. It is his daily driver and has been for a while. Guy is in portland.

MonsterMaxx

I'd give up my truck before giving up the AC.
Hope you rethink this as it would make yours a one-off for most of us.

You'd do better to put it by the oil filter. There's lots of room there and it's well protected at least on IFS rigs.

Also, IMHO you really need an intercooler if you hope to keep it alive under any kind of sustained load like hauling a trailer.

suprathepeg

I don't have AC so I could really care less. Don't know why but AC makes me car sick for some reason.

Have you tried changing the oil on your 3.0 any time lately?

MonsterMaxx

Yes, and I see your point, however with a little relocation of the filter and H2O line you would have some room there - NO?
{Mine is in pieces right now so I can't look at one - working off memory}

suprathepeg

Yea I thought that after my last post.

suprathepeg

FWIW I've been doing some research on the cooling systems of the 3.0 and the 3.4. It may relate to turbo applications fore sure. It can be found in my build up thread here:

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/show...t=77833&page=4

Full Boogie

I thought I would dig up this thread and explain why we haven't pushed a 3.0L kit. The $2500 dollar figure is long gone. Prices on everything has gone up, and I did explain to everyone that inquired that though the kit is complete it barely gets you by, spending more money and getting injectors, computer system, and whatever else needed with problems that arise would get you end results you would be happy with. But the problem IS cost. Toyota trucks of this generation can be had for a few hundred bucks sometimes, so no one wants to spend $3000 on a kit for a truck they just bought for $1000, and I totally understand. We have good success with the 22RE turbo parts, but probably this year will be last we offer anything for the 22RE's, it's sad but the market is dying, and we have to move along or we will dye as well. A while back someone said "you should offer a complete solution for the 22RE", as in, a turbo kit that included EVERYTHING from computer system to the vaccum lines......well, we do, it's $3800 dollars and in the last year I have sold two, yes 2 complete kits. I would like to know where these guys are, I have sold dozens of headers and various other things for the guys that want to find/make/do most of the stuff themselves but the other problem I have is I see guys using our header, posting pictures of "their" turbo project and not once ever saying "I got the header from TNC Hot Rods" (formerly Full Boogie Racing). All in all the reponse I got about the 3.0L turbo kits wasn't good, as far as marketing a kit If you want it done and are ready to spend a few grand bring it down, we'll do it. As a business you have to look at how a product is going to sell, I would have 9 kits on hand for the initial run to make a turbo kit, that is a very expensive up-front cost, just to give you an idea for a 3.0L JUST the headers we have made, to get them pre-bent the first run has to be a 50 minimum, I have the quote here from the CNC shop we get all our piping from...each tube, our cost in stainless is $47.23, now by six tubes = $283.38, now we figured 9 sets for 9 turbo kits which would be 54 tubes, $283.38 X 9=$2550.42. Don't forget about the downpipe's, and intake piping, head flanges and so on, that is big investment/risk that you would be taking and hope you can sell a few kits right away to get that money back. So for the time being, the 3.0L and 22RE kits are pretty much made to order, and done by hand, one at a time. Now if 10 guys with 3.0L stepped up and did a group buy, you would get one hell of a deal, and a very nice turbo kit.


Thanks,
Rick

Ganoid

What kind of gains can be expected on a 3.0 for some one spending $3500 to turbo a motor thats in excellent condition.

dcg9381

What point do you have to look to larger injectors, piggyback, or full ECU replacement?

Weasy2k

How much power can the 3vz-e take? I have the option to offer internal upgrades but wonder if the demand would be there at all given the growing popularity of engine swaps (3.4L).