Dana 44 ?'s
 

When I start my SAS with a Dana 44... What kinds of modification are required? I searched, but couldn't find many answers. Do the spring perches have to be moved any? Also, I have seen points of the steering that have to be modified. What are they talking about when it says (modify to accept high-steer) or sumthin like that? I am just looking to see what kinds of mods to do to my newly found D44... Thanx abunch...

How much you have to do to the D44 depends on what vehicle it's from. You will probably have to redo the perchs, you may even have to narrow the axle. Why not just use a Toy axle, the D44 isn't any stronger.

Either way you'll need a high-steer kit. You just replace the stock arms on the axle with the new ones, then install the rest.

5 inches
 

I don't want to use the toy axle and have to deal with a 5 inch difference in width.... also I think the diff is on the wrong side for me. I have a 96 4Runner...

it depends on what d44 you choose.

Umm...do a search for the user "Breezey" as he recently did the SAS on his 1996 4Runner. :D

Jim

The Dana 44 may not be any stronger than the TOY rear, but the front eliminates the problems of the birfields.

You don't need to hysteer it as long as your steeting is setup for crossovr - which is should be. The hysteer is nice, but not required.

You will need to narrow and move the perches - most likely. That'll depend on what you buy and what your current spring width would be after the SAS. You can outboard your spring perhces to match the Dana 44, but then you're running full width with is typically 65 - 67" WMS - WMS. A stock Toy solid axle is only 59"

Re: 5 inches
 

But you say your "newly found" 44. So what did it come out of if you already have it???

If it came out of a Waggy, it will need to be sprung over and you will need a set of flat top knuckles if you want to run high steer, which you do.

<soapbox>

Not to jump on you or anything, but this information is literally ALL OVER the internet. If you don't know this simple stuff and you have already started in on your SAS you might have bigger fish to fry.

I mean your posts look like you don't have a clue on, well, anything. I mean if you have the axle and you can't look at it and tell what needs to be done I hope you'll excuse me if I question your ability to take on a project of this magnitude.

I seriously think you might need to sit down and figure out what every step of this project will require and firgure out wether or not this is something that you know about and can do safely.

Solid axle swaps are not to be attempted by Joe Schmoe. If that junk breaks on the road, you could kill yourself. Not to mention you can't just go back once you've started. I see a lot of people posting simple questions about this stuff and that scares me. If you don't have the basics, how can you expect to do this right?

</soapbox>

With that said, feel free to PM me with any questions you have. Despite what it may look like my interest is not in chastizing you but in helping you to get this 100% right...

Re: Re: 5 inches
 

I think the right idea is coming across here. Doing an SAS at home requires significant fabrication skills and should only be taken on by those who have the skills OR by those who have a good friend with the skills.

Personally, I get tired of people (mostly on the Pirate4x4 board) telling everyone to look it up, use the search function etc. While you certainly can and should do that as part of your research, feel free to post questions that you didn't find answers to. I'm no SAS guru nor Dana guru but since I recently went through a lot of the same questions you had, I have no problems answering question either - silly or not:bounce:

I read through most of this last night but now it's my turn for the silly questions.
1. How far into this process are you? What steps have you taken that you're already committed to - such as; did you already buy the Dana 44?
2. What is your level of knowledge regarding suspension design? It never goes exactly as expected...
3. WHY are you doing the SAS?

a toy axle with longfields is stronger than a stock D44 and longfeilds are cheaper than CTM's

a stock toy solid front axle is only 56" thats why people use spacers or wide axle kits on their SAS

The first part is debatable.

The second is correct. I forget that I had spacers :o)

Why do people say this? I mean seriously, what the hell is the point?

So you are telling me that if you take two front axles that have roughly the same strength stock, and you add upgraded parts to one of them, that axle then becomes stronger? NO ˟˟˟˟˟???

Here the the cold hard facts. A 44 with alloy shafts and your choice of beefy u-joint is MUCH STRONGER than a toy front with all the available upgrades on the market. Not to mention toy housings are easier to bend. They also have a nasty habit of getting trashed from the inside whether its a shattered bell that takes out the inner knuckle or a piece of R&P shoved through the front of the housing.

I have nothing against them, those are just facts. Take it or leave it. I plan to use a toy front in my next project...

Exacly, people compare a beefed toy axle against a stock junkyard find dana 44. Put alloy shafts in both, longfields in the toy axle, and longs treated 760X u-joints and that 44 will be stronger.

I am going to have to agree completely with 44Runner here, If i remember there are 3 recent SAS's in this forum section alone. Two with 44's, and one with a Toy axle.

Spend a little time reading those three, and search pirate for a while. You will find more information than you will need.

Edit, as i look on the first page of this forum, i see 2 SAS that have been completed and documented. Not to pick on you or anything, but how much did you search?

OK....first things first... I haven't started the SAS (as I said in the first post) yet. I do know some about the swap, but all I want is a good number of opinions. I know that alot of the info is on the site already, but I want opinions from people, not just facts and information. About the "newly found" D44, a friend of mine told me he has an axle, but I haven't been able to go get it yet. That's why I was just curious how much work is going to have to be done on it. Also, I am not doing the SAS by myself. I have a friend who is going to do it with me, that knows plenty about this. I just can never catch him at home right now, because he works out of town alot, and also just had a baby boy. So his time is pretty occupied, and I don't want to bother him too much right now. It's just the "anticipation of articulation" is killin me!!! I know people just hate when I post a question about this, but I am really nervous about the road ahead. I don't know everything about this swap, but I do know some. The things I don't know are like "high-steer", and "crossover steering." Stuff like that, I have no clue of it. I wouldn't be so worried about possibly missing one little detail, but this is my everyday ride for now... I just wanted everyone's opinion that I could get to help me make my decision on whether to do it yet or not. I may even not worry about it, and start work on my 1967 Ford Fairlane 2-Door Hardtop. It may be a better way to go...... Who knows though? I guess people's opinions will help decide that. Thanx for the help everyone...

You're asking for help in the right place. In my opinion, the only dumb question was the one that you didn't ask.

I still think people were curious as to which D44 you are going to get from this friend...as they are not all created equal.

(yup, there are different ones, as lame as that sounds)

Jim

"Hy Steer" and "Cross over Steering" are almost one in the same. You can get standard Crossover steering which leaves the tie rod under the leaf springs, or you can get Hy Crossover Steering that moves the tierod up over the springs. I know your gonna run a dana 44 but just for a general idea you can check out some X-over pics on a yota axle at Allprooffroad.com. This should give you an idea of how it works. Hope this helps.

...and in addition to those, here's a photo of cross-over, hi-steer on a Waggy D44 axle that is almost clear enough to see everything up to the Pitman arm.

Edit: It would help if I inserted the damn image ;)

http://www.watrd.com/work/flex1.jpg

My Goal...
 

Let me just tell you my goal.....and see what ya'll think..... I have two friends whom I ride with. My brother has a 97 Taco, 3 inch Revtek spacer lift, 3 inch body lift, and 32x11.50 SSR Swampers. My other friend has a 95 Jeep Grand Cherokee, 4 inch Rubicon Express lift (dang that thing will flex), and a rear locker. We ride as a little group, and it seems I always get left behind on the trail. I want the SAS because I love flex. I loved the 4-link rear when I first got it, because I just think its neat to watch it going through a rut, and keepin the tires on the ground. However, this IFS front-end just isn't enough for me. Maybe if I had a big IFS lift, it would be better, but I don't wanna spend 2 grand on a lift, and not be satisfied. I'm sure you all know where I'm coming from. I have never done a SAS, but to be honest, I do all the work to my 4Runner. I also installed both lifts on my brother's Taco(along with help from him). The SAS looks complicated, but I honestly think I can do it. Like I said, a friend of mine has done a couple of swaps (a 90-sumthin Z71 sittin now on Dana 60's front and rear). He also has a jeep he has built.....well it used to be a jeep...lol. He said he will help me do it, but I guess I am just nervous about such a venture. I know I have asked repeat questions, but ya'll gotta bare with me..... I'm about to take that big leap....this is like marriage or sumthin.....(except life gets better with SAS) (I heard its sumtimes the other way around with marriage... lol). Thanx for all you guys help. It means alot.

P.S. WATRD, I want my 4Runner sumthin like yours... maybe on 35's.......one day.... one day..... :)

I think you just offended WATRD :o)

Taco - 4Runner - Taco??

I had never done a swap before either, but between ChrisCo and I and a lot of research, we muddled it out and I am QUITE happy with the end result. :bigok:

Gibby, the word it "flattered", not "offended" :) ehehehheheeh

If I had to choose a Dana44 axel it would be from an old 60's International Harvester 1/2 truck.

But, nothing says more than a Ford 9 inch axel from a late 70's ford pickup.

My total preference would be a GMC heavy 1/2 ton pickup with Dana 60's. The width of the axel was correct but, brackets for brakes and springs would need to be fabbricated. Another disturbing problem is getting the wheel studs on the hub to match Toy rims. It would be more fabrication time and money.

Why put yourself through so much hell trying to get drive lines to match or frabicated for the front using a Dana 44 without the installing a true beefy axel.

Note:

The front IFS axel is considered a full floating axel. Stronger than a normal Dana44 sem-floating axel. I understand there are some full floating Dana's but, there are from older rigs.

Couple things i have to correct you on, "heavy 1/2's" never, NEVER, had D60's. Not only that but the heavy 1/2 was only available in 2wd. It had a 12 bolt rear end vs. the 10 bolt and had the 454 option.


Now, for a little history. Back in the 67-72 style trucks (chevy), there was (as a rare option, VERY RARE) a 6-lug Dana 60 rear in some 1/2-tons. AFAIK, it was a c-clip design with 30-spline axles. Only available in the rear end. Kaiser J-trucks did have a factory 6-lug dana 60, but again, only in the back.


Another, every single front solid axle is a full floater. Every single one (yes, this inclueds portals). Calling the IFS full floating is a bit of a stretch.

Rear axles are different, there were full floating 44's and 60's. there were semi floating 44's and 60'd. Toyota even has had a few full float rear axles, though they were most all in LC's and 1 tons.

I dont mean to be an ass, but i hate being missinformed as much as the next.

Thanks for the education.

Most of the material i had listed in the previous post came from the Toyota Truck and LC bible.

I will re-educate myself before speaking another word on dana axels.

:nerd:

joez went pretty light on you. I'm not sure if anything in this post is right.

why would you choose a 60's 44??? You know there is a reason you never see closed knuckled 44s on anyone's rig. They suck...

Your "note" is really bad. Makes me doubt you actually know what full floating/semi-floating means. Pretty much all front ends are considered full floating, 44, IFS, 30, 60, 35(ttb) you name it. full floating simply means that a spindle carries the weight and not the axle shaft.

hell to get the driveline to match up? you either get the the shaft made with the right yoke on one end or you call up high angle driveline and get there pinion flange and use your existing drive shaft and get it retubed. Been there, done that. Wasn't hell...

I could go on and on...

Re: My Goal...
 

Based on this, you will be much more capable if you get front and rear lockers rather than SAS with open diffs. For instance, in the CO4RJ vid one of the Caskeys had an open diff 85 truck that had trouble on obstacles that all of the ifs, rear locked trucks just walked right over. Lockers will give you a much better return on investment than a SAS alone will.

With dual lockers you will blow away the taco (assuming he's open diffed or even locked rear) and you will give the GC a run for it's money.

The info was a near qoute of what is written in
"Toyota Truck & Land Cruiser" by Moses Ludel
pages 330-331.

If the info in the book is not correct then I would like to know.

not sure why any of that info would be in a book about Toyotas but yes, the majority of what you posted is incorrect...

Yup, but i know that this isnt pirate and and there is a lot of missinformation floating arround out there. How it got published i will never know. amusement, any chance you could scan pages? My library doesnt have that book.

Anywho, back on topic, Robinhood is correct, lockers will get you a lot further than flex alone. If you definately plan on a SAS in the future, spend the money on a quality rear locker, and then either get a used 3rd member for the front, or something like a lockwrong. If you spend $900 on a front locker only to SAS in 6 months, you are pretty much throwing your money down the drain. If you plan on keeping the IFS for a while, then invest in something a little better.

Thanx...
 

I was wondering about that. See, I have just graduated from a 2wd Taco to this..... 4WD's are not my area of expertise. My brother's Taco has open diff's. One main reason I wanted to SAS my runner....I love flex.....I love to crawl.... But I might just take the advice and lock-up quick... I don't really have the money now for ARB's, so what kind of locker's would you recommend? Front and rear? My truck is 5-speed, so I think that helps with the offroading. I was actually thinking of the 4.7 transfer gears, but I need help elsewhere first. Maybe the lockers are my route out... Thanx a bunch for the info....

Josh

Where to start is one of the most challenging questions. My answer says that you also have to look at where you want to finish. Tires, Gears and lockers tend to be the typical first place to go. Base your gear choice on the FINAL tire size you plan to go to. With your rig, 5.29 gears is probably optimal if you plan on going 35s or larger. You can do lock-rites fairly inexpensively and they'll work even when you change gears. They are a cheap locker, but most guys like them. They're a little weak for the larger tires...

Good aggressive tires, lock-rites and then gears. The dual t-case is an amazing option, but you're getting into some serious bucks by that point.

Re: Thanx...
 

the 4.7 t-case gears are not an option for you...

then I echo what everyone else is saying...

Standard operating procedure for 3rd gens is to lift ~2-3inches with spacers $, OME suspension lift $$, or sway a away suspension lift $$$$, and throw on 33in tires and rock sliders. At this point you'll be just as capable as the tacoma.

Now, you have decide if you want to lock front and rear, or just rear. Do your research on selectable lockers Vs auto lockers, auto lockers have some quirks (especially in the front). Keep in mind it's not absolutely necessary to regear with 33s, it's still driveable.

I think you'll be surprized at what you can do with just a rear locker. You can get dual transfer cases once you learn the limits of your truck.

ozzfan1JC, all I have to say is....

http://www.marlincrawler.com/



:drunk: :drunk: :drunk:

Well first lemme say my mods. I first installed a revtek spacer lift in the front, and OME lift coils in the back. Now my problem is wanting to keep my front-end from turning all the time, but that's another issue. I have new model Tundra wheels, and 285/75R16 Remington Mud Brutes as rolling stock. No scrubbing until almost full flex in the rear, with no sway-bar. I am looking into lockers now. If any more advice.......just say.... Thanx people....Keep the info coming....

I want one of these..
That would be pretty cool, and I "fake" low 2wd with my hubs unlocked all the time.. be nice to really have it!

http://www.marlincrawler.com/images/twin_200.jpg
http://www.marlincrawler.com/images/twin4_200.jpg

I find myself posting this about once every couple of weeks.....

I keep seeing posts by people wanting to build a competent offroad vehicle, and automatically assume that they need a solid axle up front. They decide this without ever really exploring the ability of their IFS vehicle. Why spend all the time and money to do a SAS, and realize that you'd be just as happy with a rear locker? If you've got the money and know-how or know-who (someone thats going to help you), go for it. However, this is what I'd suggest. Spend a little bit of money and throw a locker in the rear of your vehicle. This is something you'd likely do anyways even if you did a SAS. From my (limited) experience, the times I've seen people not be able to get through particular obstacles has been due to 1) lack of traction (get a locker) and 2) not enough ground clearance (get a lift). Wheel with a locker in the rear for 6 months, and if you're still aching for better articulation and are getting left in the dust by your friends, go nuts and get a SAS. I'm all for making incremental changes and building up your skills in the process, instead of going on one or two runs and deciding that you have to have a tubed out buggy to have any fun offroading.

:good:

I hate to disagree:booty: No I don't I love to disagree - it makes it fun.
This is coming only from my own personal experience, including the effect on my bank book. I think it's a good idea to decide where you want to end up and then find a good path to get there. I have no problems with the idea of adding a locker in the rear and then go have fun, since you'll probably use it anyway. But, if a guy want's to build a solid trail rig with good lift, tires, lockers etc, it makes more sense to go the SAS route before he ever buys a lift kit. The IFS lift kits are quite expensive and if you go with any 4" kit, you are asking for trouble if you stretch the limits too much. For not a lot of extra money, you can go with a basic SAS and and a rear coil spring lift for not much more than an IFS lift. By basic I mean, Toy rear leafs, plain Jane solid axle with the stock rotors, brakes, etc.
My story is all about how much stuff I threw away realizing it wasn't enough for what I wanted to do. Now if I could only pay attention to my own preaching!

Off my soap box. Flame suit on!

I agree with what your saying Gibby. To restate/rephrase my earlier statement- if you can test the waters without potentially wasting too much money in the process, then that's what I'd push for. To take a daily driver all the way to SAS without any intermediate steps is a pretty big leap. I just see people spending alot of time on yotatech and other boards and getting all hyped up with the idea that theyhave to have SA vehicle to be "hard core" without really knowing what their vehicle can do. Its one thing if the person is an experienced wheeler, but I get the impression alot of guys just get sucked into the hype of SAS without realizing they might be happy with just wheeling what they have.

I would have to disagree about the cost of a real basic lift compared to SAS, particularly for 3rd gen 4runners. 800 bucks for new coils and a pair of SAWS is a whole lot cheaper than a solid axle swap. If you go with spacers in the front instead of SAWS, it'd even be cheaper. Hell, if you're main goal was increased ground clearance, get a cheap body lift and you could run 33's. 95% of the vehicles on Yotatech have got 3 inches of lift top, probably 5% of that 95% seriously push the limits of their vehicle, and 2% of that 5% of that 95% could really justify doing a SAS. Its late on a friday afternoon, but if you do the math, you'd see a pretty small number of people that really "need" a SAS. I think my guesses are pretty close, based on a couple thousand yotatech members, and all of 2? SAS'ed third gens....

I was quoting a basic SAS vs an IFS lift. You can pick up an SAS kit for about $150 with the brackets that you need. You can pick up an 82 complete front end for about $250 and a set of used Toyota rear leafs for about $50. You may or may not need a driveline change - probably not at 3". Now I'm talking about 2nd gen. I know nothing about 3rd gen. Add a simple cross over steering for $250 more and you've got an SAS for under $1000. It's a little more than an IFS lift, but the performance certainly will exceed an IFS lift AND, you don't throw the IFS lift away next summer.

I agree that a well designed IFS truck with lockers, great tires and a good driver can do just about anything the pacific northwest has to offer - if they have a winch :chairfall If they want to build a higher end, more durable trail rig, SAS is the way to go. WATRD has gone through the same stuff. We all agree that learning to drive with a more stock rig, and growing the rig as your ability grows is the ideal way to go.

We do see this all over the boards - how should I do my build up? I have $1000 for the first stage, where should I spend my money? Tires, lift, locker - what should I do first? Recongnize any of these subjects??:laugh:

There still isn't a single answer to this question. I personally like to see people ask the question so that those in the know can throw in their two cents and help someone make a more informed decision - even if it's not the one we would have chosen. I get tired of the Pirate and SNORT guys telling everyone to search, search, search. Sure, search is good, but it's a lot more fun to work your own thread and get the answers to your questions, rather than someone elses. That was a different soapbox, but even though I post there as well, that really bugs me. Sometimes there are way past the point of rude.:pig: