What kind of oil do you run in your rig?
11-29-2017, 10:13 PM
#21
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5w30 is recommended and continues to work perfectly for 475,000km's no engine issues, obviously 5w30 works in a wide range of conditions very well for a lot of Km's, can anybody say I've ran thicker oil and my engine will last longer than yours,.. probably not, but it could contribute to black sludge leading to top and bottom end repairs,.. who knows, I guess it doesn't really matter what you use as long as your engine is happy and gets to 500,000Km's or more, just like 5w30 did for me.
11-30-2017, 06:45 PM
#23
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uve come to that conclusion because one guys truck has more ks than yours??
nahnahnah.
Thinner W number is better, and correct hot number is better.
so long as u change regularly and use a semi synthetic or full synthetic, sludge should be a non issue. And the other very important thing with oil is preventing contamination, and 2 peoples identical motors may have differeing amounts of contamination of the oil over a given time.
One easy thing to maintain is the PCV system which will keep vapour and blowby gasoline from setting in to the oil.
the other is the amount of blowby itself, which often exceeds the amount of vapour removal the PCV system is capable of.
The PCV system only pulls out bad vapour at any decent rate during acceleration.
At idle, and coasting the valve is practically shut, by design, so as to not lean out the fuel mixture with excess fresh/crankcase air.
so driving around like a grandma in an older engine is actually worse for the oil; much worse, than giving it some stick.
And finally ensuring that yiu are not running too rich, by chrcking ur spark plugs regularly is just as important. blaxk dry sooty plugs indicate a very rich mixture, which some people think is good because they get no power issues. But the excess unburnted fuel really washes away lubricating and sealing oil on the rings and cylinder walls and accelerates blowby, which inturn accelerates fuel dilution of the oil.
Ignition system must also be giving a good spark, or else unburned fuel will also remain.
So PCV and spark and Mixture are pretty much more important than oil type when it comes to an old motor and its lubrication.
nahnahnah.
Thinner W number is better, and correct hot number is better.
so long as u change regularly and use a semi synthetic or full synthetic, sludge should be a non issue. And the other very important thing with oil is preventing contamination, and 2 peoples identical motors may have differeing amounts of contamination of the oil over a given time.
One easy thing to maintain is the PCV system which will keep vapour and blowby gasoline from setting in to the oil.
the other is the amount of blowby itself, which often exceeds the amount of vapour removal the PCV system is capable of.
The PCV system only pulls out bad vapour at any decent rate during acceleration.
At idle, and coasting the valve is practically shut, by design, so as to not lean out the fuel mixture with excess fresh/crankcase air.
so driving around like a grandma in an older engine is actually worse for the oil; much worse, than giving it some stick.
And finally ensuring that yiu are not running too rich, by chrcking ur spark plugs regularly is just as important. blaxk dry sooty plugs indicate a very rich mixture, which some people think is good because they get no power issues. But the excess unburnted fuel really washes away lubricating and sealing oil on the rings and cylinder walls and accelerates blowby, which inturn accelerates fuel dilution of the oil.
Ignition system must also be giving a good spark, or else unburned fuel will also remain.
So PCV and spark and Mixture are pretty much more important than oil type when it comes to an old motor and its lubrication.
12-01-2017, 03:41 PM
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yeh PCV is the worst design ever, whoever thought blowing dirt into an engine intake was a good idea should be taken out back and slapped.
Peraonally im trying to get a diesel engines vacuum pump on the alternator and i intend to use that as the pcv suction source and run it to a catch can. probably ilegal, but there is no sense in the common design with a pcv valve. Do u h
just have restrictors in ur pcv lines and no pcv valve? if so then thats better as it will always vent, but still better to have it sucked out by something. Particularly on deceleration in a carburetted engine, where fuel continues to be sucked in with no air to make it burn (closed throttle) and this lack of air means no compression in the cylinders which means the rings float free and dont seal and all the fuel just goes straight down the bores to the oil. Its 5his stage that requires the most suction by the PCV system but due to the stupid design, this high vacuum scenario closes the PCV alltegether giving all that fuel lots of time to settle into the oil. STUPIDITY.
Peraonally im trying to get a diesel engines vacuum pump on the alternator and i intend to use that as the pcv suction source and run it to a catch can. probably ilegal, but there is no sense in the common design with a pcv valve. Do u h
just have restrictors in ur pcv lines and no pcv valve? if so then thats better as it will always vent, but still better to have it sucked out by something. Particularly on deceleration in a carburetted engine, where fuel continues to be sucked in with no air to make it burn (closed throttle) and this lack of air means no compression in the cylinders which means the rings float free and dont seal and all the fuel just goes straight down the bores to the oil. Its 5his stage that requires the most suction by the PCV system but due to the stupid design, this high vacuum scenario closes the PCV alltegether giving all that fuel lots of time to settle into the oil. STUPIDITY.
12-01-2017, 06:17 PM
#26
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I personally run what ever the manufacture of the vehicle recommends in the Owner's Manual and change the oil at the recommended intervals. If you keep up on maintenance on your engine and regularly check up on how the engine is running, you should have an engine that lasts a long time.
I know that there are extreme environmental conditions that a vehicle can be subjected to where the factory recommendations don't make sense, but for most every day driving, the factory recommended oil and change intervals make the most sense.
I trust that the Toyota engineers know what they are doing.
But, everyone has their own opinion.
I know that there are extreme environmental conditions that a vehicle can be subjected to where the factory recommendations don't make sense, but for most every day driving, the factory recommended oil and change intervals make the most sense.
I trust that the Toyota engineers know what they are doing.
But, everyone has their own opinion.
12-01-2017, 09:19 PM
#27
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They certainly do, but once bearing clearances are worn, its not longer the Toyota that they sold.
Realistically you couldn't confirm worn bearings unless u did an oil pressure test with new oil and compared the result to a rebuilt motor with the same oil, but the high possibility of the bearings wearing by 500,000 kms, means 40W is the safest bet at that age.
the extra 10 is not going to slow down the oil flow enough to make any significant difference on temp, but the added viscosity will indeed create a better cushioning effect on the journals and the big end bearings in particular, and this leaves more pressure available to spray up to the piston skirts and to be sent through the conrods to the wristpins to be squeezed out the oil ring pressure holes, and of course, more oil to the valvetrain. These particular areas are greatly, by an order of magnitude, affected by thinning hot oil.
This is why we hear rod knock and piston slap when the engine warms up on a well worn out motor.
Realistically you couldn't confirm worn bearings unless u did an oil pressure test with new oil and compared the result to a rebuilt motor with the same oil, but the high possibility of the bearings wearing by 500,000 kms, means 40W is the safest bet at that age.
the extra 10 is not going to slow down the oil flow enough to make any significant difference on temp, but the added viscosity will indeed create a better cushioning effect on the journals and the big end bearings in particular, and this leaves more pressure available to spray up to the piston skirts and to be sent through the conrods to the wristpins to be squeezed out the oil ring pressure holes, and of course, more oil to the valvetrain. These particular areas are greatly, by an order of magnitude, affected by thinning hot oil.
This is why we hear rod knock and piston slap when the engine warms up on a well worn out motor.
12-03-2017, 12:30 PM
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12-05-2017, 04:37 PM
#36
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5W30 Castrol XL and Toyota filters since new; 04 Taco 2.7 4cyl. Change oil about every 6000KM's. 560000KM's or so on the clock, checking oil between changes just wears out the hood latch and hinges, and gives me something to do. Purrs like a kitten, hot or cold, fast or slow.Tried high mileage oil around 300000KM's (the jug said for engines over 120000KM's) but didn't see the point or any advantage.
The SAE viscosity scale is a bit @#%^ed. There is not much difference the average engine is going to realize between SAE 5W30, 10W30 and 10W40 engine oils. If you got low oil pressure, worn rings, bearings and/or valve guides/seals and a bunch of leaks a switch from 5W30 to 10W40 isn't going to fix it. I worked with this guy who ran 75W90 gear oil in his van "cause it burns lots of oil". (NO S#@T that's what he said.) I showed him the Saybolt/Kinematic/ISO/SAE engine/SAE gear viscosity comparison chart. He said the chart was "BS". He drove a Chrysler so that explains it.
More oil pressure isn't the thing...flow is. Thinner oil flows better than thick oil.
You need about 5 to 10 PSI to float the crank and about 10PSI for every 1000RPM...old street racers rule of thumb.
Its a common mis-conception that thick oil is better than thin oil, quite the opposite is true (I can hardly wait!) The only valid reason to switch to thicker oil is higher operating temperatures, possibly higher ambient temperatures. I'm talking the difference between 180 and 240F and 60 and 90F. As most engine wear occurs on start up it is imperative to get lubrication as fast as possible
The SAE viscosity scale is a bit @#%^ed. There is not much difference the average engine is going to realize between SAE 5W30, 10W30 and 10W40 engine oils. If you got low oil pressure, worn rings, bearings and/or valve guides/seals and a bunch of leaks a switch from 5W30 to 10W40 isn't going to fix it. I worked with this guy who ran 75W90 gear oil in his van "cause it burns lots of oil". (NO S#@T that's what he said.) I showed him the Saybolt/Kinematic/ISO/SAE engine/SAE gear viscosity comparison chart. He said the chart was "BS". He drove a Chrysler so that explains it.
More oil pressure isn't the thing...flow is. Thinner oil flows better than thick oil.
You need about 5 to 10 PSI to float the crank and about 10PSI for every 1000RPM...old street racers rule of thumb.
Its a common mis-conception that thick oil is better than thin oil, quite the opposite is true (I can hardly wait!) The only valid reason to switch to thicker oil is higher operating temperatures, possibly higher ambient temperatures. I'm talking the difference between 180 and 240F and 60 and 90F. As most engine wear occurs on start up it is imperative to get lubrication as fast as possible
Last edited by Old83@pincher; 12-05-2017 at 05:10 PM.
12-05-2017, 05:20 PM
#37
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It depends what you mean by worn.
If the bearings are so worn that noise is heard through a stethoscope, then viscosity wont help much. However if oil pressure is monitored and tested using a gauge on an engine which is about 300k km old, then u will see an oil pressure difference (hot engine at idle) between 5w30 and 10W40.
It depends on how worn the bearings are and whereabouts the wear is. (bottom bearing or top bearing or both)
Sure we are talking about minimal pressure figures, like 1-2 psi difference, but just coming off idle with the power, that can be the difference between sufficient lubricating and metal to metal contact.
The viscosity table is not useless, modern engines require 20-30SAE(hot) oils because their clearances are small and they run hotter for emissions reasons. A 20 can be as low as 5.5 CST and as high as 9.5 CST, where a 30 can be from 9.5 to 12.5.
Now your point is about what that actually means to pressures,
From experience, with my motor that is so worn it knocks and slaps, i can guarantee you when i measure oil pressure with the gauge, I get these results.
Toyota 4k motor after 20 minutes of idling and a stable rich idle at 750 rpm.
GTX 10W-40 (14.3 cst at 100degrees) - 2.3 - 2.8 PSI with loud audible knock and piston banging after 20 minutes idle
GTX 20W-50 (18.1 cst at 100 degrees) 2.6 - 3.5 PSI with occasional knocking after 20 minutes idle.
So it does make a difference on pressure, but how much does this pressure make a difference on engine wear???, no one could ever tell you, but simply "DOUBTING IT", that is not a good reason to go and doubt the engineers and oil companies.
If the bearings are so worn that noise is heard through a stethoscope, then viscosity wont help much. However if oil pressure is monitored and tested using a gauge on an engine which is about 300k km old, then u will see an oil pressure difference (hot engine at idle) between 5w30 and 10W40.
It depends on how worn the bearings are and whereabouts the wear is. (bottom bearing or top bearing or both)
Sure we are talking about minimal pressure figures, like 1-2 psi difference, but just coming off idle with the power, that can be the difference between sufficient lubricating and metal to metal contact.
The viscosity table is not useless, modern engines require 20-30SAE(hot) oils because their clearances are small and they run hotter for emissions reasons. A 20 can be as low as 5.5 CST and as high as 9.5 CST, where a 30 can be from 9.5 to 12.5.
Now your point is about what that actually means to pressures,
From experience, with my motor that is so worn it knocks and slaps, i can guarantee you when i measure oil pressure with the gauge, I get these results.
Toyota 4k motor after 20 minutes of idling and a stable rich idle at 750 rpm.
GTX 10W-40 (14.3 cst at 100degrees) - 2.3 - 2.8 PSI with loud audible knock and piston banging after 20 minutes idle
GTX 20W-50 (18.1 cst at 100 degrees) 2.6 - 3.5 PSI with occasional knocking after 20 minutes idle.
So it does make a difference on pressure, but how much does this pressure make a difference on engine wear???, no one could ever tell you, but simply "DOUBTING IT", that is not a good reason to go and doubt the engineers and oil companies.
Last edited by Thommo Thompson; 12-05-2017 at 05:22 PM.
12-05-2017, 06:12 PM
#38
Registered User
5W30 Castrol XL and Toyota filters since new; 04 Taco 2.7 4cyl. Change oil about every 6000KM's. 560000KM's or so on the clock, checking oil between changes just wears out the hood latch and hinges, and gives me something to do. Purrs like a kitten, hot or cold, fast or slow.Tried high mileage oil around 300000KM's (the jug said for engines over 120000KM's) but didn't see the point or any advantage.
The SAE viscosity scale is a bit @#%^ed. There is not much difference the average engine is going to realize between SAE 5W30, 10W30 and 10W40 engine oils. If you got low oil pressure, worn rings, bearings and/or valve guides/seals and a bunch of leaks a switch from 5W30 to 10W40 isn't going to fix it. I worked with this guy who ran 75W90 gear oil in his van "cause it burns lots of oil". (NO S#@T that's what he said.) I showed him the Saybolt/Kinematic/ISO/SAE engine/SAE gear viscosity comparison chart. He said the chart was "BS". He drove a Chrysler so that explains it.
More oil pressure isn't the thing...flow is. Thinner oil flows better than thick oil.
You need about 5 to 10 PSI to float the crank and about 10PSI for every 1000RPM...old street racers rule of thumb.
Its a common mis-conception that thick oil is better than thin oil, quite the opposite is true (I can hardly wait!) The only valid reason to switch to thicker oil is higher operating temperatures, possibly higher ambient temperatures. I'm talking the difference between 180 and 240F and 60 and 90F. As most engine wear occurs on start up it is imperative to get lubrication as fast as possible
The SAE viscosity scale is a bit @#%^ed. There is not much difference the average engine is going to realize between SAE 5W30, 10W30 and 10W40 engine oils. If you got low oil pressure, worn rings, bearings and/or valve guides/seals and a bunch of leaks a switch from 5W30 to 10W40 isn't going to fix it. I worked with this guy who ran 75W90 gear oil in his van "cause it burns lots of oil". (NO S#@T that's what he said.) I showed him the Saybolt/Kinematic/ISO/SAE engine/SAE gear viscosity comparison chart. He said the chart was "BS". He drove a Chrysler so that explains it.
More oil pressure isn't the thing...flow is. Thinner oil flows better than thick oil.
You need about 5 to 10 PSI to float the crank and about 10PSI for every 1000RPM...old street racers rule of thumb.
Its a common mis-conception that thick oil is better than thin oil, quite the opposite is true (I can hardly wait!) The only valid reason to switch to thicker oil is higher operating temperatures, possibly higher ambient temperatures. I'm talking the difference between 180 and 240F and 60 and 90F. As most engine wear occurs on start up it is imperative to get lubrication as fast as possible
I think we are getting off track discussing what oil you should put in a worn engine.
If your engine is worn out, the oil you put in there isn't gong to change the fact that the engine is worn.
Sure, you can limp an engine along using what ever oil you believe is going to make the engine last, but at the end of the day, your engine is still worn and you need a proper rebuild anyway.
I think the most important thing is to keep up on maintenance and use the manufacturer recommended oil before your engine gets worn prematurely, you know, the preventative stuff.
We might be beating a dead horse here....
Last edited by old87yota; 12-05-2017 at 06:17 PM.
12-05-2017, 07:11 PM
#39
Registered User
AH...refreshingly intelligent person.
I'm glad you quoted the kinematic numbers for SAE to show how vague/broad/un-precise SAE is. I was going to but thought well its just academic at this point. SAE is a useful scale for the KISS principal but as an actual measurement of viscosity falls short...somewhat!
What I mean by worn, well would be your engine...I don't think I'm saying anything you don't know or acknowledge. As you've demonstrated out thicker oil really isn't fixing the problem. We all know what the real fix is and I'd do the same to prolong the inevitable. Really did about 1psi make that big of a difference...its still has very low oil pressure at idle and knocking. I got to say I never dreamt the operating conditions down there were so harsh.
I don't know about my Taco with 560000, but my 83 with 250000 (un-rebuilt) still has about 10PSI at idle using Castrol GTX10W30...exactly what Toyota says to use with the climatic conditions where I live. (Sorry it was Castrol GTX not XL!) Toyota says put 5W30 in the Taco...that's what I do...and its got 560000KM and runs just fine. Would putting 10W30 or 40 in it make it last longer, and that probably is the whole point of this, unlikely, its best years are behind it. Did 5W30 shorten its life? Well the numbers don't lie. Could it get another 500000 with 10W40, maybe, but where I live rust is going to kill it before anything else. There are several Toyota Canada documented vehicles (a RAV4 in BC and a Corolla used for driver training school for instance) with 1000000KM's+ that were serviced at a dealership. Oil changes of 5W30 at 8000KM's.
20W50!!!!! Jeez I don't think they have that here...it would flow maybe for 2 weeks in the summer! Next time I'm at Canadian Tire I'll make a point to look for it.
Yup, oil companies and engineers know there stuff...but marketing will try and sell you anything... that's why stuff like Sea-foam, Slick 50 and other snake oil sells, they tell you it'll fix your worn out engine like magic. The only magic is how fast your money disappears into their bank.
The horse is dead and has been hauled away for glue
I'm glad you quoted the kinematic numbers for SAE to show how vague/broad/un-precise SAE is. I was going to but thought well its just academic at this point. SAE is a useful scale for the KISS principal but as an actual measurement of viscosity falls short...somewhat!
What I mean by worn, well would be your engine...I don't think I'm saying anything you don't know or acknowledge. As you've demonstrated out thicker oil really isn't fixing the problem. We all know what the real fix is and I'd do the same to prolong the inevitable. Really did about 1psi make that big of a difference...its still has very low oil pressure at idle and knocking. I got to say I never dreamt the operating conditions down there were so harsh.
I don't know about my Taco with 560000, but my 83 with 250000 (un-rebuilt) still has about 10PSI at idle using Castrol GTX10W30...exactly what Toyota says to use with the climatic conditions where I live. (Sorry it was Castrol GTX not XL!) Toyota says put 5W30 in the Taco...that's what I do...and its got 560000KM and runs just fine. Would putting 10W30 or 40 in it make it last longer, and that probably is the whole point of this, unlikely, its best years are behind it. Did 5W30 shorten its life? Well the numbers don't lie. Could it get another 500000 with 10W40, maybe, but where I live rust is going to kill it before anything else. There are several Toyota Canada documented vehicles (a RAV4 in BC and a Corolla used for driver training school for instance) with 1000000KM's+ that were serviced at a dealership. Oil changes of 5W30 at 8000KM's.
20W50!!!!! Jeez I don't think they have that here...it would flow maybe for 2 weeks in the summer! Next time I'm at Canadian Tire I'll make a point to look for it.
Yup, oil companies and engineers know there stuff...but marketing will try and sell you anything... that's why stuff like Sea-foam, Slick 50 and other snake oil sells, they tell you it'll fix your worn out engine like magic. The only magic is how fast your money disappears into their bank.
The horse is dead and has been hauled away for glue
