Advice please!
 

Hi!

I am in the middle of a big mess and desperately seeking advice! The engine for my 1995 Toyota 4Runner SR5 4WD V6 110.000 miles recently overheated. I was able to drive it briefly and then had to push it to the nearby mechanic shop.

The next day, the mechanic informed me that the radiator which blew its cap needed to be replaced as well as the fan and thermostat which were working but due for replacement. However, upon performing the above repairs the mechanic (Mechanic #2) discovered that the previous mechanic (Mechanic #1) who had replaced the radiator in 6/04 had put too much water in the coolant which froze solid (I'm in Boston- brrrr!). According to mechanic #2 this subsequently damaged the 5th of my 6 cylinders. The radiator, thermostat and fan were replaced so that the car would run while I awaited a formal estimate for engine repair.

Upon calling the mechanic #1 back with further details of the damage, he agreed to replace the radiator as he had told me in a previous conversation but insisted that my car would be smoking excessively (which it's not) if there were cylinder damage and that the radiator issue would not cause cylinder damage. Mechanic #1 insisted that he was not responsible for the engine damage. I then had mechanic #2 call mechanic #1. According to mechanic #2, mechanic #1 was rude and insisted that he was not responsible. Mechanic #1 was gone when I tried to call him back.

In the interim, I don't feel safe driving my old car which is obviously not worth repairing and have located a used 2001 4Runner which I would like to purchase this weekend because it's a good deal.

Questions to you guys: Which mechanic is right? Could the frozen coolant/ radiator issue cause engine damage? Would my car necessarily be smoking excessively with 5th cylinder damage? How do I pursue this matter if mechanic #1 is indeed at fault? What measures do I need to take to prove this before getting rid of the old car?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm obviously stressed and tight on time given that I found exactly what I want in the "new" used 2001 4Runner.

Thanks and have a great weekend!

in theory the freeze plugs would come out before the frozen liquid could hurt the cylinder walls. if there was cylinder damage there should be blow by from the rings and cause white smoke. i think i would seek a 3rd opnion as neither one nor two sound right to me. what caused it to over heat? did they say?

Hi!

I'm clueless and merely relaying mechanic #2's version. As I understood, the frozen coolant (too much water) caused the radiator to malfunction and blow its cap from excessive pressure and then subsequent overheating damaged the 5th cyclinder. The car is not smoking since the radiator was replaced; however, at the time of the overheat there was a lot of grayish white smoke coming from the engine. Mechanic #2 has gone out of his way to help me and would have no reason to be dishonest in his diagnosis of cylinder damage given that he recommended that I buy a new truck vs. paying him $3000 to rebuild the engine of my 1995 4Runner.

During the few days prior to the overheat, the heater was working sporadically and the car was accelerating poorly/ somewhat lurching on a couple of occasions. I though it was due to the car's age and the particularly cold weather here in Boston lately.

What do you think? Is this version feasible? Can I get a 3rd opinion without major labor costs? What specific tests should I ask for? I'm extremely tight on cash and time but don't want to make any stupid rash decisions. Remember, I'm clueless so please be specific.

Thanks so much!

I think Mech #1 is doing a #2 on you.

Get the 2001 that you like. Since #1 mech put only water in your radiator, he obviously doesn't have a clue, take #2's advice or get a third opinion. Tell them your story, should not cost very much.

Sounds like #1 is definitely shirking his responsibility - that much is obvious.

I would call the local Better Business Bureau. In my experience, they are pretty responsive, and if the mechanic (or shop owner) got a call from them, things tend to get taken care of quickly. I have had to deal with this in several instances - and it has worked well.

Since you are looking at another 4runner - the less $ you have to put out to fix the broken one - the better, right?

Main site:
www.bbb.org

Complaint site:
http://complaint.bbb.org/(fll5q4f04mu0zs55fe4gbc55)/Default.aspx

I read over the guidlines for complaints, and your situation is an excellent example. Essentially you have tried to "reason with Mechanic #1, and have gotten a 2nd opinion from Mechanic #2" - but Mechanic #1 is not working with you to resolve the issue. The BBB serves as a facilitator in this case - but since they would be calling on your behalf, that helps immensely.

Good luck on the "new" runner and keep us posted on the BBB.

Sounds like a ASE test question...Is technician 1 right, technician 2, Both technicians, or neither.

I'd Say that mechanic 1 knows he messed up. But doesn't wanna tell ya. Either go with what mechanic 2 said or get a 3rd opinion. if not get the '01!!

Sorry to hear about your misshaps, good luck!!!

Compression test the engine! Go to yet another tech or try and persuade the dude at Auto-zoned to do it in the parking lot. How is the vehicle running now?? Could be the headgasket--possibly covered under recall--call Toyota 800 in manual for details have vin# ready. If you get the new one, I'll buy your 95.
reldnew

I think it is quite a bit of speculation that too much water in the coolant mix caused engine damage from freezing and causing a crack. How long had you been driving it before it overheated? It would have had to have been a few minutes or less I would think, if the coolant was frozen (therefore not moving) the engine would overheat quickly, if you had been driving for a while before it overheated it would point to the coolant not being frozen. Did you lose all the coolant, if so it would be difficult to prove what the coolant/water mix was.
If it overheated badly you could have a headgasket problem, especially if it was the original headgasket which was recalled.

The car had not been driving long prior to the overheat- 3 miles or so. I had only driven the car for a few sporodadic short jaunts in the day with it parked for about 95% of the day.

The following day when mechanic #2 looked at it he informed me that the coolant was frozen solid inside of the radiator which had blown it's cap from excessive damage. He felt that this then caused my engine to overheat and damage the 5th cylinder.

Yes, unfortunately the coolant leaked out of the radiator due to being stored in a heated garage. Yes, its a 1995 3.0 ltr. Is it possible that the frozen coolant/radiator caused the engine to overheat which then blew the gasket? Or does this only happen in reverse order? Is a compression test the same as a leak test? Is it worth it to pay Toyota $170 to do it? I dunno, remember I'm clueless. What do you think? As annoyed as I am with all of this, I am pretty psyched about the new 2001!

Thanks so much!

1. Is the engine running smoothly as it is now-just with the new rad. ?? If you start and run it until regular operating temp. does it run smoothly without leaks(coolant or oil), smoke or unfamiliar noises?

2. Call Mech #2 back and ask if he performed a compression or leakdown test to determine that cyl 5 was damaged. If he did, what were the readings. What does he mean specifically---ie headgasket, warped, cracked, burnt valve, piston or whatever by his diagnosis "Cyl #5 damaged". good luck and post back!

reldnew

The Saga Continues!
 

Hello Again!

I spoke to the mechanic again today ( mechanic #2) who had seen the car following the overheat. He again stated that he feels as though the overheat and subsequent engine damage was caused by mechanic #1 putting too much water in the coolant vs. 50/50 when he replaced the radiator in 5/04. Sadly the coolant in the radiator has leaked out since it was stored in a heated garage. He also stated that an improperly placed spark plug served as conductor which zapped the cylinder.

Mechanic #2 further reported that he determined internal engine damage by (1) Doing a radiator test which indicated too much pressure (2) Compression test which showed bubbles indicating too much pressure in the radiator (3) Following a complete tune-up the engine is still running roughly. Mechanic #2 stated that he felt that it was not necessary to do a leak down test because there was no burning of antifreeze. There is a slight language barrier so any further clarification of these tests and results would be greatly appreciated.

Mechanic #2 reported that the overheat burned and broke two of the head gaskets on cylinder #5. A Toyota mechanic on the phone, who was one of several who agreed but obviously could not confirm mechanic #2’s frozen coolant hypothesis, stated that the 5th cylinder may have sustained the damage given that it is one of the cylinders furthest from the cooling agent/ radiator. Of course, the Toyota mechanics on the phone also cited a blown head gasket as the possible cause. I dunno, what do you think? Is it possible that the frozen coolant is merely coincidental? Thus far, everyone agrees that there is no way to prove the cause. Is that the case? With frozen or partially frozen coolant are there any symptoms that might have occurred prior to the overheat? Would these be any different than head gasket issues?

The vehicle continues to run as it did since the radiator, fan, thermostat were replaced and tune-up on 1/28/05. It’s sluggish with poor acceleration and I can hear and feel the motor churning/ rumbling moderately but not all that loudly. Everything else seems to be fine- heater, radio, windows, sunroof etc. Other than the motor, I haven’t noticed any other unusual sounds, smoke or smells. Every once and awhile I think I smell a gassy smell but it may just be normal “engine running smell” and my own paranoia. I haven’t noticed any leaks but did just add more antifreeze and oil today. It was the second quart of oil that I added in about 3 weeks. She’s also due for an oil change, but I’ve sunk $700 into her in the past few weeks and $700 for a radiator and alternator in 5/04 and 6/04 so I’m proceeding with the minimal to drive safely.

As others such as yourself have so kindly recommended, tomorrow I plan to go to Midas (cheaper than Toyota $140) for a 2nd compression test to confirm damage and to check the oil, coolant and transmission starting battery water level in order to drive the car for trade in for the 2001 4Runner this week. I can by no means afford her, but she’s a beauty! What exactly is the transmission starting battery water level? Do I really need a leak down test? The dealership that I’m buying the new truck from is 60 miles away. Is there anything else I should have Midas check in hopes of gathering more details and to make it to the dealership without further issues? Are there any tests which might indicate the cause of the overheat? Remember, I’m a car ignoramus so please be specific. Your feedback thus far has been greatly appreciated. It’s a jungle out there!

Thanks again and have a great day!

Dude-Stop where you are.
Get out your owners manual, have your vin # handy and call the 800 # for Toyota Customer Service and say you have a 4runner that requires repair under the Head Gasket Recall Campaign. Say no more than you need to and do not elaborate or try to explain diagnoses from mechanics to the service rep. Your head gasket is blown, there was a recall campaign. They will check the vin and let you know if:

A. Your 4runner is eligible
B. If it has already been performed on your vehicle

If it has been replaced under recall already, you are proboably SOL for a freebie. But try this anyhow.

Keep us updated
reldnew

hmm, he said his was a 95.. the late 94s and 95 3.0s used a 'redesigned' headgasket, so i dont think he's gonna qualify... but, might as well call, nothing ventured, nothing gained