HHIRunner

I have a 1998 4Runner Limited with 110,000 (5k/yr since new). Oil changes every 5k or 12 months. For the latest oil change I brought it into my regular repair shop, as I also needed work on the front brakes. After they inspected the car, they called to say it needed new rotors and pads, and also several other recommended items: wipers, 3 drive belts and 1 valve cover gasket. I knew the brakes were chattering when applied at speed, and I knew I had not replaced the belts in the 12 years I have owned it, so I approved everything, for $1,100+.

They also told me they were busy, so all of that would take an extra day, during which they would move the car out of the garage to work on other vehicles.

So, next day, they called to say, “Bad news.” While the car was warming up for a test drive, after 7-10 minutes, it started making bad noises, which proceeded to get worse, until the engine shut off. They restarted it one time. The noises persisted, then the engine seized. They were unable to budge it with a breaker bar and extension on the crankshaft.




For the mechanics out there, please tell me how you rate the potential explanations I was given as to what happened (along with the assertion that, had I actually gotten the car back after the repairs, it probably would have happened to me anyways. Here are their proposed explanations:

- faulty oil filter (but very hard to prove etc)

- The bearings were ready to go, it just happened to happen at that moment.

- same as above, but with throwing a rod.

- he does say that the root cause of whatever happened is oil starvation, but has no preferred theory as to how that may have happened.




Also please feel free to offer a more likely explanation, if you think of one…




- clogged pick-up tube?

- spontaneous failure of the oil pump?




This issue is unresolved, and we are at somewhat of a standoff, as the shop owner says he will forego the repair bill if I give him the title, and I should feel free to take him to small claims court, where I would have the burden of proof that he did anything wrong.




Forgot to mention, he told me, several times, that if he had done anything wrong, he has insurance for that, but finding out what actually happened (and whether he was at fault for it) could take $1500 more work, and he would not undertake anything further without me paying for it. And further, that he would not make an insurance claim anyway, since that would cost him more than the value of the car (which he says is now $0.00). And if all that is not preposterous enough, if I were to give him the title, he would wait until after the busy season, then tear the engine down “because he really wants to know what happened”.




Again, I’m interested to hear whether anyone thinks any of the listed possibilities have any credence, or if it is likely to be something else that’s more obvious…




Thanks all!

dropzone

iTrader: (6)

sounds to me like they forgot to put oil back in following the oil change

akwheeler

I agree with dropzone, unfortunately the first thing they probably did after it seized was to put oil in it.
That in itself means that they will not ever fess up to being at fault.
DO NOT give them any more of your hard earned money, if you pay them off you should pay someone else for the repair.

akwheeler

Do you know if that shop has security cameras? If so you could ask to see the camera footage from before and after the engine seized, if they have nothing to hide they should be willing to show you as proof of their claim that they did nothing wrong, (you're mostly looking to see if they put oil in it AFTER the engine seized, if they DID then check to see if they put oil in before) otherwise they would just say that you need a warrant. If you got a warrant they would say, oh... the system automatically erases everything after 48 hours (or something like that).
You are definitely in a tough spot since there statement is undoubtedly true, it was caused by oil starvation. The exact cause is almost impossible to prove.
The only things you could do to inspect it would be:
#1 pull the oil pan and inspect the oil pump pickup foot for clogging and if it is see if it is gasket material or whatever.
#2 pull a main bearing cap and verify that they are shot. while there see if you can tell what is keeping the crank from turning (piston seized or bearings seized)
#3 pull the oil filter, put it on another engine with a good oil pressure gauge and run it just long enough to see proper pressure. (I would save this for last, I'm not a fan)
after checking these you would be able to answer several of their arguments as to what happened, but they can always fall back on the impossible to prove items on the list. Namely "the bearings were ready to go" or "failure of the oil pump"
As we Toyota owners know, if you regularly service your engine it is barely broken in at 110K miles. I think that shop is a place to avoid and they are full of $#!+
unfortunately I don't think your chances of getting justice are very good. Sorry...
If I think of something that will help your cause I'll let you know, but if you do sue them you should reach out to other locals to see if anyone else has had issues with them, it will help your case if you can show that they don't always play honest.

aowRS

That’s a pretty painful story. I agree that the shop probably forgot to refill the oil, which of course caused the engine to seize. Proving that may be next to impossible unfortunately.



Andreas

fierohink

You could drain the oil and some out for oil analysis at Blackstone or similar. If the oil was put in AFTER the motor seized it should have very LOW levels of suspended particulate. If there is HIGH levels of suspension, that would indicate the oil was likely in the motor while it seized. There would also be indicators marking overheating of the oil compounds.

akwheeler

Good point fiero, I have never done oil testing before since was never available in Alaska. Hazwaste shipping to the lower 48 isn't cheap and I never found the need.
HHIRunner, absolutely GET a sample, and get it tested to see what they can tell you. The shop will likely fall back on the spontaneous oil pump failure keeping the oil from circulating, but you may be able to pull the oil pump and rig up a way to drive it and see if it picks up oil and makes pressure. still very hard things to prove in court...how do they know it's the same pump that was in the truck and all that.

fierohink

Another thing to consider about a 5vz motor is it has a crankshaft driven front mount gerotor style oil pump. These rarely “just fail”.

When they do fail, it is a long drawn out process of greater and greater tolerances due to wear and slowly losing oil pressure. At 110k miles that should not be the case.

The other possibility would be the pick up tube got blocked. That could be easy to prove by pulling the pan and looking for LARGE chunks of debris. This inspection could be misleading however if a rod or bearing cap fragmented when the motor seized.

Jomoka

/\ /\ /\ Ding ding ding. You'd probably see metal flakes coming out that were just washed out by the fresh oil, though. But an analysis would let you know if the oil was in there when it happened.

It *really* sounds like they forgot to oil it back up again until after it died, though. There's just *practically* no way it could have happened in the manner they said it did.

Kolton5543

I'm willing to bet they forgot to put oil in it prior to starting. It happens sometimes. Especially on jobs where there is additional work. People will drain oil, lower the car some and do the brakes. By the time they are done with the brakes they forgot the oil was drained. I'm willing to bet the filter wasn't prefilled at all. If oil was added after the engine seized up there won't be much in the filter. If there was oil in it for the entire time it was running, the filter should be full and be mixed well with the old stuff. It should be noticeably darker than brand new oil.

fierohink

Also shops carry insurance for this type of snafu. Granted, they don’t want to make an insurance claim like everyone else in the world. But I would pressure them with some questions, this has been a very reliable vehicle, doesn’t use oil, never had the oil light on and you’re telling me you ran it, it started making noise, you continued to run it until it seized? You didn’t think, hey there’s some rod knocking, shut it down? How long did you leave it to warm up? Do you always leave customer vehicles running unattended? If it was a short time (which if they never refilled the oil it would take less than 5 minutes to knock) you’re telling me that there was no indication of malfunction? As I said in a previous post, oil pump failure would be preceded by low oil pressure.

Gmann2

my guess is the oil pump or they forgot to put oil back in it till after the damage was done.sorry that had to happen to ya.

millball

If they filled it with oil AFTER it seized, the new oil filter should still be dry.

aowRS

Sure would like to hear how this issue played out.



Andreas

Discombobulated

I was thinking the same thing.....man it’s not even my ride and my blood pressure goes up while reading, I try to do what I can myself but I do have a buddy that is an X Toyota mechanic that opened up his own shop. After disposing my own oil and doing changes myself I figured 4 bucks more taking it to him is worth it. But if I didn’t know someone I would be still doing changes myself.

Either way I hope this turns out ok OP!!!