RSR

There are orange and silver flamethrowers. If you're willing to reset your afm to stoich, go w/ silver. If you want plug and play run orange.

The brake booster seafoam just hits the rear 2 or 3 intakes... Need to use the spray through throttle body. Have more info in the plenum cleaning writeup I did.

Gevo

At the moment the plenum is off. I plan to restore that to its shiny glory days for sure. Along with all other components im removing. You guys recommend a special cleaner?

Im still in the middle of deciding to get the flamethrowers or clean the existing. I dont want to change stock mixture setup. Maybe another time.

Gamefreakgc

If you are thinking of sending them to be professionally cleaned, it'll run you a minimum of $140 including shipping. For $150 you can get the orange ones that stock DENSO ones that include better fuel technology and are plug and play. Mine arrived in about 4 days.

Keeping the stock injectors in there isn't as bad as you would think. After 279k miles on my rig the injectors were not clogged at all and only showed minor flow increases after being professionally cleaned. No real engine performance change there, so I'm not really a big fan of getting them cleaned and reman'd, didn't do anything for me.

Gevo

I'll definitely clean the plenum and other components myself.

I don't expect that new/remand injectors would give me 'performance' boost. I just want it to work right, and smooth

Gamefreakgc

Don't worry about injectors then since they rarely ever go bad or clog up.

RSR

The Amsoil Power foam worked with the plenum on very well for me. I did a writeup on it. They sell it as intake cleaner/engine degreaser so will probably work with it off, but it did work better once the plenum and engine were both toasty. The main thing is to remove the carbon buildup from the intake...

With gasoline, it's the vapor not the liquid that ignites. So the better your injectors atomize the fuel the more boom for a gallon you'll get... The stock injectors are less than ideal in that regard. Yes, they work, but if you're torn down as far as you are, I'd just go ahead and replace w/ newer tech -- if it were me anyways. See this thread for further info: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116.../#post52120473

Gevo

thanks RSR, I did read that thread earlier

Well, one more thing we must not ignore is the pressure effects on the fuel in the combustion chamber. The pressure adds to the atom-ization and combustibility of the fuel. That's why the ignition happens after the fuel is sprayed, then pressurized. I haven't done any real research on this topic, but however much I understand physics leads me to this.

Thanks for all your input!!

As an update to the rest of the work, Saturday my buddy and I are gonna start to remove the rest of the engine from the car. I decided to get the long block redone. I will be extremely annoyed if I do the heads, then find out 10000 miles later I need to do the bottom to. lol.

Anyone in LA heard of "Perfect Engine" ..? I did some research, asked them some questions.. so far I feel they are legit...

RSR

I don't think that it's the chamber pressure adds to atomization, but rather the heat generated by that pressure that assists w/ atomization (by moving gasoline closer to it's flash point temperature)...

That being said, all things being equal, smaller fuel droplets will better mix with the air available (14 parts air to 1 part fuel), point being a lot more air than fuel is present. And before compression occurs to condense fuel and air, you want as complete/thorough as mix of air and fuel as possible to allow for optimal combustion...

Gevo

RSR, yes, you are correct, I jumbled 'atomization' with 'instability' in my mind... What I was thinking of makes the molecules less stable therefore, as you said, decreases the flash point temperature. I'm curious now, how much difference there actually is between the spray method and the fine mist method... From what I've read on the forum it seems about half the people claim it's made a difference and half say it's not a big deal... Perhaps there are actual lab results showing the amount of energy expelled by the spray vs. fine mist

osv

if the atomized spray is hitting the wall of the intake, it'll fall out of suspension.

i'm wondering if these injectors with the split "v" pattern may have been designed for engines with two intake valves per cylinder... one spray per valve, in other words.

on a 22re, the injector is several inches away from the back of the valve, and the intake flow bends pretty hard along the way... at least one half of the "v" spray is going to be bouncing off of the intake walls, which means poor atomization.

i haven't seen the inside of the 3vze, but i'd want to match the spray pattern with the factory original pattern.

RSR

OSV, good point, I was actually looking at that myself in FSMs yesterday. Didn't want to pull plenum for curiosity sake. Debating between the silver and orange on flow direction not just atomization and flow rates...

Gevo, bear in mind that the gray vs orange seem to be reporting different results too. Flamethrower is advertising that computer will adjust for 8% extra flow. In my understanding the narrow band O2/ECM on our trucks only adjusts between open throttle (just above idle) to just short of wide open throttle. For idle and WOT, the ECM assumes that stock setup is all kosher. That's why the need for AFM adjustments w/ the Supra swap, etc, and why you need a wideband O2 installed to properly set stoich, etc...

Gamefreakgc

RSR, you're halfway here with the tuning part. I needed the extra flow with the Supra VAFM swap, since I was taking in extra air and not as much fuel. The ECU will adjust quite nicely to stoich when it is in closed loop (taking input from sensors like the O2). However, when at open loop when it's cold or at WOT, that's where it gets tricky. I don't have a wideband so I'm just winging it, erring on the side of rich so as not to damage anything in the long term.

For a 22RE's, these Flamethrowers don't help as much. The 22RE injectors are already a v-shaped spray so it's mostly atomized. For the 3VZE though it's a solid straight stream (fuel tech showed me at his shop when he was cleaning them). That's why you have mixed reports, great upgrade for a 3VZE but a so-so upgrade for 22RE's.

Also a lot of people just put them in looking for better MPG's. Only a few reported any increase, I was not one of them.

Nuckinfut

[QUOTE=RSR;52121927]There are orange and silver flamethrowers. If you're willing to reset your afm to stoich, go w/ silver. If you want plug and play run orange. /QUOTE]

What do you mean by reset your afm to stoich? sorry dont understand, im about to get some of the flametrhowers and looking at the silver ones, but looks like the silver (4 hole) arent the way to go.

Gamefreakgc

He's saying that the silver ones increase flow by 8%. This is not a good thing for a stock truck but most ECU's will adjust with no problems but a few have reported very poor timing and air/fuel ratios. They are still plug and play for most.

If you want 99.99% reliability, buy the orange $150 ones. They are DENSO and will work fine.

RSR

[QUOTE=Nuckinfut;52122757]If you look at the Camry/Supra/Cressida AFM swaps for the 3vze, it'll give you the full walk through. And some have adjusted their stock setup too a little leaner (allowing in more air) as stock seems to run a little rich. Essentially, there's a flapper in our air flow meter, and a spring that controls the amount of air. The ECU knows the amount of air that should be coming in under the stock AFM spring tension and adjusts fuel accordingly. When you change fuel input or air input, you need to make sure it's working properly when in open loop. The only way to do this is by adding a wideband 02 sensor. They're about $150 and maybe $20 to install another 02 bung somewhere before your stock 02 sensor.

Specifically, the AFM has a sealed idle bypass screw that you have to drill out the plug to adjust the screw for idle. And for WOT, you have to open the black cap siliconed in on the top to adjust the spring tension to get the air ratio to increased fuel ratio correct. Too rich -- you're wasting fuel and potentially burning up your cat. Too lean -- you're potentially goign to burn a hole in your piston.

So if you want the easier route, keep the fuel flow the same. If you want the best option (which might but not necessarily be the silver), it's more complex, but if you're increasing airflow w/ the Supra AFM and want to do that right, then you need the wideband 02 anyways to do it right. With the wideband O2 and understanding how the system works, you're safe to tinker w/ the silver/gray. If you don't know what you're doing and/or want the easier route that's plug and play, go w/ orange... I'm personally leaning towards orange, just want to ensure a wide spray isn't a detriment vs the more narrow spray of the gray...

To be fair, I don't think the gray is essential w/ the Supra, but again, I haven't actually done any of this either, so can't say which combos work best... Gray/silver with stock AFM seems like a terrible idea as it's the air flow, not fuel delivery, that's already the biggest dog on this engine... So I don't know that going w/ more fuel flow will do anything for you but burn more fuel without more mods and add'l sensor input.

P.S. Gamefreak -- thanks for the clarification on the closed/open loop scenarios.

Gevo

OK... so I'm looking ahead to order various seals, gaskets, parts.. etc.. so I can do all of these things while the engine is out. I started looking at my power steering system which has leaks everywhere and the steering has a lot of play. I'm getting the following items new.

-Steering Damper
-All new hoses (the pressure lines are pricey!)
-Rebuilt steering pump (do you recommend rebuilding myself? I read the writeups threads on here...?
-Steering Gear (OEM cost $2k+... lol!!)

My question tonight is with the steering gear.. the rebuild kit cost either $25 or $52 bucks.. and I couldn't find a yotatech build thread.. A rebuilt one is around $200.. anyone have strong suggestions on rebuilding myself??? the fsm has a decent section on it..

PS: Personal problem.. autozone/pepboys/napa/oreily NONE of them stock a pulley holder tool.. !!!!

Gevo

I just posted a reply and it went away.. lol.. great.. the short version is:

RSR and Gamefreak, I appreciate your time and effort in your explanations.. I want to keep my fuel system stock for now.. edit: i'll get the orange flamers.

Thanks

EDIT: The orange flamethrowers topic went full circle here.. lol..

Nuckinfut

So I have a 89 Pickup 4x4 5speed manual 22RE. I should just get the orange flamethrower injectors? I am also pulling my engine in the next couple weekends and replacing all the seals, gaskets and the whole timing set. clutch etc.. and also thinking while it's out about doing the injectors. so If someone with some more knowledge than myself could point me in the right direction of which injectors would be best would amazing.

Gevo

Browse through the rest of this thread and the forum. The guys covered it thoroughly for me here. I don't know, however, how much of the information in this thread applies to the 22re. Like people here advised me, search in google .. i search like this "yotatech 22re injectors" ...

Gamefreakgc

Lol sorry, RSR and I like to get technical on these sorts of things. Probably was overkill.

No clue about the steering rebuilt. Mine's a little sloppy but I just deal with it, I don't have the time/money to rebuild it.