Double D

So last night I pulled off my valvecover, intake manifold, and tonight I will be pulling the head off.

I already have it mind to do the following:
New water pump
Timing Chain, Cover, guides from engnbldr etc.
New oil pump
piston rings
high output alternator

What I want to know is, should I buy the Street RV head and Crawler cam from engnbldr or should I send them my head and let them build it? Who has experience with the street rv head and their crawler cam? Can you still pass emissions with it?

I have read A LOT about engnbldr and nothing but good things. My only concern is what is best, while still being able to pass emissions.

My proposed plan so far, whithout feedback, is get the engnbldr street rv head, and the EPN 261 Crawler cam, timing kit with water and oil pumps, gaskets (head gasket from Toyota) and I say piston rings because I plan to but a small turbo on this in the future.

Right now I am running a full Hooker exhaust. Header is brand new and I have 2.5" to the muffler and dual 2.25 out. Once i'm tired of it, I will go with the Steed Speed manifold and Garrett turbo. I would like to not rework the motor at that point.

ANY and ALL suggestions welcome here. I would like to make a decision by Friday.

Thanks all! Oh and here is a picture of my motor with the valve cover removed.

Double D

So I decided on the Street RV head from EB, and the 261 crawler cam. I will also get the new water pump, oil pump, metal timing chain guides etc.

My only question now is, should I get into the block or leave it? Truck had 130k when I got it, and now has 150k. Was babied before. What is the best way to determine if I need to rebuild the bottom end?

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

If your doing a new top end do the bottom while it is down.

To save you from doing it a few weeks to months down the road.

New Top now the bottom end is the weaker link.

millball

What was your compression and oil consumption before you took it apart??

What was hot oil pressure???

Double D

Never checked the compression. Just tore it down knowing i am at 150k and the timing guide is no good. I backfired hard last time I tried to start it and it wouldn't turn over so I figured timing guide broke anyhow. I also have seepage from the front of the motor between the head and block, and white smoke from the exhaust when I crank, so a HG was due anyway. It was rapidly getting worse. I have the money for EB RV head and I ordered the 261 crawler cam and timing kit with water and oil pumps last night. I am getting the HG from Toyota.


My motor was babied before I owned it so I wasn't planning on doing the bottom end. I read that it is much more difficult to get right and I'm not REAL experienced with that part. I had planned on inspecting the cylinder walls for the crosshatch and if it was worn I would pull everything anyway. I was trying to avoid it though.

Suggestion on the bottom end? And yes I have done hours and hours of reading regarding this so NO and I'm not trying to take the easy way out. What would you do?

Double D

I have a full axle service kit front and back, wheel bearings and new differentials with 4:88 gears and detroit lockers, and high pinion front diff going in this weekend. I will also finish pulling my head and everything apart so I can install the new timing kit. The new head from EB will be here next Wednesday and I will probably get that in next weekend, providing I am not convinced the tear apart the bottom end.

yodta

ah yes, ye olde "might-as-well" rabbit hole

so this is on your non-turbo'd truck you're working on right now, yeah?

those are good questions, and good input above. seems to me like you might need to plan/build now for that turbo project if you're serious about that, otherwise you kinda have two different paths of approach?

my thoughts:

1. have you had any discussion with EB as to whether they'd recommend something different for the head and cam for a turbo project? I'd do that first before presuming it'll work for a turbo setup. their gear is pretty nice (I also have the RV head and 261), but they may recommend something else for a turbo application.
2. if you're going to turbo it later, you should prob give some careful consideration to a bottom end rebuild right now, esp if you don't have those compression figures millball mentioned. without that, you don't really have any true sense at all of the bottom end health. to say/know it's been babied is a good thing, but it's subjective when talking about mechanics and trying to determine the physical health of an engine, you know?

couldn't tell - do you have the engine out right now? you mentioned doing rings. if you don't have those compression figures, I'd think seriously on just redoing the bottom end right now, as well, and open dialog with EB to see what they think on the turbo proj. that could change everything.

Double D

X'd the turbo for this DD. (the 88) And no I am not talking about the turbo truck. That is going to be a very long term project and I will go back to that thread when i'm ready.

I talked to Ted a couple of years ago when I thought I was about to start the 22rte and he gave me excellent advice, just as he did yesterday. (I think it was Ted anyhow yesterday) The turbo model with be a trailer truck where this Street RV head and 261 cam are going in my DD. I will use Eb's competition ported polished head for the turbo model (most likely) but no decisions on that will be taken seriously until I start spending money on it.

As for this discussion, I am working on the 88 Daily Driver/Rescue truck. The one in my avatar but doesn't look like that anymore.

I already ordered the 261 cam and timing kit from EB. I will purchase the head on Friday to ship Monday he said. This give me the weekend to rebuild my axles. Already trail-gear dirty 30 kit and 6shooter knuckles, chromoly hubs, etc. Just ogtta get these diffs in.

when the motor is done, I will order Marlin Crawlers heavy duty transmission. Mine drives but 1st and 2nd gear grind going into gear so it wont be long. I also have a new tcase with 4.70 gears waiting to bolt up. Might wait for the marlin crawler so I dont break the tranny right away.

Double D

The turbo is not needed for this DD because it isn't worth the money for what I use the truck for. I will drive it to work but I work 3 miles from home and dont see a freeway to get there. I would rather throw that 2000 bucks at the 86 rte and get started.

yodta

yeah, I wasn't clear on whether you were putting a turbo on this or upgrading the one on your other truck.

so did EB tell you to just roll with the head + cam for now?
was there any discussion of your bottom end with them?

Double D

No, but I didn't present it as if I was concerned about the bottom end. And yes the RV head and cam for now should do me, that is for the top end anyway. If I need to do the bottom end, What should i do? Assuming that things are in good condition but getting replaced anyway, what am I looking at? I know the rings are hard to set properly and THAT is my concern.

yodta

been a while since I've done a rebuild...

rings aren't so bad if you get a decent ring compressor. obviously get the ring positions set and don't twist them when you push them in.

I think some guys do quick rebuilds in the engine bay, but I've only ever done them with the engine out, along with all the machine shop checks and machining where necessary.

if you decide to do the bottom end, you'd at the very least be checking clearances on bearings and such. you can probably do that without pulling the engine if you can get the pan dropped, which it sounds like you already have figured out since you mentioned doing the rings in the first place? (you have SFA, right? I think it's easier in this case?) To do the rings, you have to pop the rod caps anyway. maybe just check those for condition and clearances and go from there, I don't know. Then, if you find that you need to do the rod bearings, well then you'll prob need to do the crank bearings, and then you have to pull the transmission anyway to get it out, so might as well just pull the engine and do it all properly. see how this snowballs? just a matter of drawing the line somewhere and accepting the potential consequences that may or may not come with the decisions.

did you mention whether you know what the compression figures were before disassembly?

if you weren't doing rings, and knew the bottom end to be tight, I'd just do the top end for now and drive it. if you're starting to tear into the bottom end for any reason at all, personally, I'd prob go all in, and pull the engine out and get the whole thing done properly. *IF* you were touching it. if you don't *NEED* to get into the bottom end at all - including rings - and the truck was peppy and had good torque response and wasn't blowing oil that you knew was due to rings, I'd leave the bottom end alone for now. but that's just me.

lastly, before you make any final decisions, just throw the situ out to EB and see what he says!

Double D

rings aren't so bad if you get a decent ring compressor. obviously get the ring positions set and don't twist them when you push them in.

So get new pistons and rings together from EB? If i'm going to do this half, i'm going to do it right. Funny I know since I considered not doing it at all but that is how I normally do things. The right way.

I think some guys do quick rebuilds in the engine bay, but I've only ever done them with the engine out, along with all the machine shop checks and machining where necessary.

I have more room around my motor than most since I hacked off the front clip and built a tube front end. I will pull the block more than likely since I will be doing the bottom. I also have a 3" body lift so I can pull the oil pan without taking anything apart.

if you decide to do the bottom end, you'd at the very least be checking clearances on bearings and such. you can probably do that without pulling the engine if you can get the pan dropped, which it sounds like you already have figured out since you mentioned doing the rings in the first place? (you have SFA, right? I think it's easier in this case?) To do the rings, you have to pop the rod caps anyway. maybe just check those for condition and clearances and go from there, I don't know.

Should I just buy new pistons, bearing, rings, etc? Why worry about the old ones being "ok?" I would assume I will be sending the motor off to get honed at least? Why not bore it out .20 over and buy pistons to fit? Or I meant, buy .20 over pistons and send them to the shop that bores it to bore it to match... Oh yeah, (edited this part) It is SFA.

did you mention whether you know what the compression figures were before disassembly?

I dont know compression as of now but it had plenty of power when driving it. I drove it ealier that night and it runs like a champ. Always has. In fact, it runs better than my 22rte but it was abused!

if you weren't doing rings, and knew the bottom end to be tight, I'd just do the top end for now and drive it. if you're starting to tear into the bottom end for any reason, personally, I'd prob go all in, and pull it out and get the whole thing done properly. IF you were touching it at all. if you don't NEED to get into the bottom end at all - including rings - and the truck was peppy and had good torque response and wasn't blowing oil that you knew was due to rings, I'd leave the bottom end alone for now. but that's just me.

I would say the bottom end is good. BUT, if i'm already apart, why not rebuild it? I know it becomes the weeker link but I also know these trucks to run to 300k with only a timing kit replacement.

lastly, before you make any final decisions, just throw the situ out to EB and see what he says!

When I get the rest of this apart this weekend, itake some photos and see how it goes. If things look good, I MIGHT just put the new head on and go. Most likely going to build the bottom though. I'm just about convinced.

Also, Who has experience with boring these .20 over? Longevity? Power gains? Would you do it again?

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

You can do this how you want after all it is your truck.

I know sometimes people get in a crunch for time.

It is so much easier to have your block work done before ordering the parts it is so easy to hope things clean up at.020 never fails always one cylinder needs to be .030 to get back to being round or to clean up some scoring .

I learned this lesson so very long ago and it sure sticks with me.

the171

I can vouch for the pro topline head as well as the ITM head from rock auto. Both are great Although, the cam that came with my topline head started pitting after about 20,000 miles. But Combined with an OEM head gasket either head is reliable.

Some will say a well maintained bottom end will last 300,000 miles or much more. It would be a shame to rebuild it if it doesn't need to be done. The bearings will seriously never need to be replaced unless they get starved for oil or beat with foreign objects. Easy to check. OEM bearings are specifically sized per journal, a standard bearing will reduce the tolerance (but usually still work fine). As for rings... Go oem or NPR if its necessary to re-bore. Cheap pistons/ rings from rock, itm, DNJ, etc But keep in mind, you don't put new rings in an old bore. If the cylinders are worn far enough to be out of spec its time for new parts.

Double D

Sorry been away for a little while. Thanks for the info guys. I think I decided on the Street RV head from EB. I already got the timing kit and oil/water pumps and the 261 crawler cam. Then found out my front axle housing is bent. So I am ordering the rock assult axle housing from trail gear with the dirty 30 short side +3". I am going to build a 3 link kit for the front and order some new shocks. Then I will get back to work on this motor. I will decide what to do when I get the head and oil pan off and can inspect the bottom end.

spideynut

Holy solid axle Batman! Bent housing thats some serious wheeling my friend!!! High 5!