1986_4runner

Hello, I have been having a problem in my 1986 4runner and am not able to diagnose it.
When the (manual) hubs are locked, sometimes (lately it is happening very
frequently), suddenly I hear a loud noise and there is some vibration. Here are the observations which might help you guys guess whats happening:

1. Its difficult to describe the noise. But the closest type of sound would be
like the one you get when u drive on those grooved speed breakers you have on highway exits or before the toll booths. (but continuous sound and VERY LOUD) If I stop or slow down, it would stop and then start again after sometime.

2. It happens on both 2 wheel drive and 4 wheel drive. I never experienced the problem when the hubs are NOT locked. Everytime I have this problem, I pull over, get out unlock the hubs and then dont experience the problem.

3. Today while I was driving and got this problem, I shifted to neutral, just to check, but the noise/vibration was still there.

4. It happens on both dry and snowy conditions.

5. I have a feeling it is coming from the front right hand side.

Any clues whats wrong with it? If yes do you know the solutiion?

One more thing, I was in the Toyota shop recently and the parts guy told me that my truck has aftermarker (Waner? brand) hubs, and the previous owner might have changed them because the original must have worn out. Do these hubs worn out quickly?

Thanks!

1986_4runner

rudestar

Check front driveshaft and U joints.

Flamedx4

Sounds like either the front driveshaft uJoints, or one or both CV axles.

Depending on what hubs your rig came with originally. If it came with auto hubs - yes, they were crap. If it came with manual hubs, they are just stout as Warn Premiums, and probably stouter than Warn standard hubs, so no reason to have changed them. But then again, it's sometimes mindboggling what people will do...

Oh, and manual hubs don't "wear out." They will either last forever, or get exploded by a combination of no maintenance (hint: never clean and regrease them,) knumbskull vehicle modifications (as in full lockers and a 400hp V8, leaving the hubs as the weakest thing in the drivetrain,) and/or bad driving (like full-throttle-wheels-spinning-fun on snowy parking lot and hit curb sort of thing...) Like I said - it's sometimes mindboggling what people will do...

93Toyota PU

I'm thinking it could be the hubs needing maintenance (greased) as mentioned by Flamedx4 or the CV joints. However, my experience with CV joints is they make a clicking noise, ususally in corners when they start to go... not a rumbling noise. I don't think it could be the transfer case or front drive shaft since the noise occurs in both 2 wheel and 4 wheel drive, but only when the hubs are locked. Locking the hubs makes the axles start rotating with the wheels. So the noise apppears to be isolated to the front axles turning. The problem would appear to be limited to the parts that are affected by locking the hubs (hubs, CV axle, part of front differential gears) and not related to the parts affected by moving the transfer case from 2 wheel drive to 4 wheel drive (transfer case gears, front drive shaft, and maybe part of the front differential gears). Maybe you could lock only one side at a time and see if the noise is isolated to only the right or left side hub.
My truck makes a noise at highway speeds (50 MPH and up) only when the hubs are locked. I'm going to grease the hubs and see if it goes away. Haven't had time due to working on my wife's and kids' cars (engine cradle, wheel bearing...).

1986_4runner

Thanks everyone for the response. I am going tomorrow to the mechanic and look under the truck, because I dont have a garage and it is cold here in Columbus. I would like to clarify this: Is it safe to lock just one side and drive? I remember reading somewhere (manual may be?) that I should not do that.But thats a really neat idea to further narrow down the problem. Thanks again.

workindog

my 90 and my 94 make a wierd sound when it gets real cold out. must be real close tolerance in machining. sometimes left side, sometimes right. in 4wd or 2wd doesn,t matter. 165k on 90, been doing that since 50k when i bought it.
like i said, only when it gets real cold outside

Flamedx4

Won't hurt a thing. If you have an open diff, nothing will happen. (This is how ADD works, unlocks one axle) If you have a limited slip or locker, the locked side will drive. (not a great idea to do this for extended periods on pavement) Kinda drives funny though, so watch it.

1986_4runner

I went to the mechanic. Unfortunately that guy knew very little on 4wheel drive trucks like mine and he just wasted my (and his) time. He removed the hub greased the bearing and put it together, but it still makes the noise. One more thing I discovered thanks to your suggestions was this: locked the RH side hub and drove and it gave me the noise, and then I unlocked it and locked the LH side hub, and it still gave me the noise. Although I (also the mechanic who test drove with me) felt it was on the right hand side.

So either the the noise comes from BOTH sides, or may be it is NEITHER sides, (I mean if it is related to the differential gears and not the hubs or so it will not depend on which side is locked; right?)

Any more suggestions? Thanks again!

PS: After wasting time with my mechanic, I went to "Trails West" an offroad specialty store and he also went for a ride for me. He said it might be the hubs, but cannot say unless he takes it apart, and they close early today so could not check.

93Toyota PU

It could be in the differential..however it is my understanding the actual hub can be disassembled and serviced...there are some washers and rings that could be rubbing causing the noise...difficult to say without actually checking the hub. If your mechanic only greased the wheel bearing he may have overlooked your problem. I think you've isolated the problem to the hub, CV joint or differential. But I would start with th hubs and go from there.

Flamedx4

More things you can do at home:

Very easy to unbolt the front driveshaft and remove it.
Then take a drive, hubs locked etc.
That eliminates or confirms one more thing. (If noise is gone, have the driveshaft/Ujoints fixed, if noise is still there, it's not the shaft.)

Find the writeup on servicing the hubs. They are very easy to take apart. I find it hard to imagine hubs making the noise, but it can happen. If they are fine, you've now got newly serviced hubs, and are left with wheel bearings, CVs, and the diff.

If you leave it in 2wd, hubs open, and turn the front driveshaft by hand, the diff should feel very smooth with little resistance. Any noise is bad. That's not a definitive test, but it's a start. Pull the plug and drain some fluid. There is always a little fine metal dust in it, but only a little and very fine. Any bigger particles, or a lot of them, and that's a bad sign.

93Toyota PU

Link to hub components for 1993 4WD:

http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-b...14freewhee.pdf

Link to front drive shaft components:
http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-b...18frontdri.pdf

Link to front differential components:
http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-b...23disassem.pdf

Link to example of transfer case:
http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-b.../6componen.pdf

rosspa75

Hello everyone, learned alot so far from this website, wonderful amount of knowledge.
I would definately like to hear how to solve this problem. I started to have this problem on my 90' runner V6 4x4 when the temps started to get colder. First it happened in the drivers side, then started to do it in the passenger side. Its definately intermittent. (either side will do it and sometimes both will do it at the same time) Reminded me of dry wheel bearings. The only way I can get it to quit is to either stop the vehicle completly or lock up the brakes for a split second in the snow. Im gonna repack the bearings and lube the rest of the drive train soon. I hope this solves the problem. The cv's are pretty new so I don't think they're bad. Im gonna leave it parked in the driveway till i fix it.

1986_4runner

OK, Here's the update: I went to the repair shop (Trails West), and first they said it was the hubs, and he replaced with the new ones. Then he went for a test drive and realised that the hubs were not a problem! He then said the bearings need to be replaced. He didn't do it because it is a longer job and he also did not have the parts.

According to this place, it is atleast a 4 hr job (both sides) and it will cost me 240 dollars just for the labour (So the estimate with parts is $320). I have alreaday paid 63 dollars for the diagnosis, and he will deduct the amount when I get it fixed. (This is how they make sure people come back to them )

Is the estimate fair? I wish I could do it myself, it would have been a good learning experience but right now I dont have time (graduating soon) and place to work. If there is someone from Columbus OH area, do you know an affordable mechanic who can do the job other than this place?

I googled about this and found this link which might be useful.

http://www.off-road.com/toyota/wheel_bearing.html

Rosspa75, I think you have similar problem as mine. Also, I had posted the question on the Yahoo Group for 4runner and someone else also said it was the kind of noise he got before his bearing broke.

tc

4x4lamm and I are not far from Columbus (he's in Akron, I'm near Cleveland). If you have somewhere out of the weather to do the work, I'd be happy to help (although I haven't done it before...) ask around - bet you can find some help!

1986_4runner

Hey tc, thanks a lot for the offer!! One more question: How safe is it to keep driving this without solving the problem, if I drive with the hubs unlocked (ie when I don't have the problem)? Will it still hurt the front wheels, hubs, etc. ( The repair shop guy said I shd do it asap even if I drive with them unlocked). I am in the dilemma whether to get it fixed now (which will cost me around 300 dollars), or wait till Feb when I graduate and do it myself probably with help from you guys.

PS: aside to tc, that 4th place on IASCA is very impressive. I am also a car audio enthusiast, do u participate in any car audio forum?

tc

Well, as long as the wheel is turning, that bearing affects things. I'm no expert, but would guess it's a pay me a little now, or a lot later situation.

Thanks. I don't do much car audio anymore. I wrecked that truck, and the insurance didn't cover all the debt I incurred building it, so I got out. Not up on the current rules and such, but would be happy to answer any ?'s you might have. My area was more sound quality, but since I had a high-SPL meter (PC RTAjr), I consulted with most all the superhigh SPL guys and learned a lot about that too.

93Toyota PU

Seems like every mechanical situation is a little different. It very well could be the bearings...but that obviously was not my first hunch. It's making me think that the bearings are causing the noise on my truck too. My wheel/tire has no play and the noise is not the sterotypical bearing rumble. I've replaced lots of wheel bearings but none so far on a 4x4. Some of them require a press to extract and reinstall. From the link you posted it appears the Toyota bearing/race can be pounded out. On other vehicles I've worked on they sometimes pop out and other times it takes a lot of force to push the race out of the hub.
If it is the bearing it is difficult to say how much life is left. I've been driving my truck for almost a year with a similar noise only when the hubs are locked. I agree that it's not a good idea to drive a lot on a known bad bearing. I've seen axle spindles snap due to a worn bearing.
I am near Mansfield so I am close to you guys...would be willing to help if needed.

rosspa75

So I was reading some more and these links might be of some help.

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f2/i-need-some-help-defining-noise-71958/
https://www.yotatech.com/~corey/tech...imrockford.htm

The second post is a write up of the actual tear down and rebuild, seems like a good time to replace alot of other stuff too...ie. wheel bearings, upper and lower ball joints etc.

1986_4runner

A question about terminology: In this thread which rosspa posted:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71958

,Celica says it's not the wheel bearing but the spindle bearing. Today, when I was at the mechanic's place he also said the SPINDLE bearings need to be changed. Then I asked "wheel bearings?" and he said "we call it spindle bearings". I said " When I removed the hub assembly I found a bearing,is this the same?" and he said "..and there is one inside".

Are these two things the same or different??

rosspa75

The "spindle bearing" or so called by some on this board "needle bearing" is a replacement part for the "spindle bushing". Apparently toyota origionally used a brass bushing where the half shaft enters the back of the spindle. Since then Toyota has changed their minds because this bushing wears out easily and a bearing is a more suitable part for this purpose. The wheel bearing is what you have accessed, the part that I posted about is the spindle bearing.