oh no.Rod knock?
 

'94 22re 149K on the clock
So I just recently replaced the timing chain, hg, intake gasket, exhaust manifold gasket. yada yada. Its driving pretty good. Good compression post job (170's). Have it buttoned up and then tonight as I was looking over it I unfortunately heard what resembled a rod knock. I hadn't noticed it before because I was getting quite a bit of timing chain noise and to be honest I thought it was the timing chain rubbing against the cover (which it was, drivers guide was broken but has been replaced with new timing kit with metal guides, new timing cover). Adjusted the valves cold .008 intake .012 exhaust. It's pretty hard to tell where it's coming from. Tried the screw driver trick but didn't really get anywhere with that.

Anyways I know videos kind of suck in terms of engine sounds but I feel like it's pretty clear sounding. The valve cover is less than finger tight so I don't think its the rockers hitting that.

Thoughts?

video:

Yes I heard the rattling sound. Not sure what it is though. Did not hear it when it was idling.

Did you use a puller to pull the crank pulley? If you did, you might have screwed the puller bolts in too far, and it bent the dust shield on the back of the pulley, and that can cause a rub. I did it myself, but caught it before I installed it.

doesnt sound like rod knock to me. i know you said your valve cover isnt tight but it sounds like your rockers may be interfering with it. get a stethoscope or butt a screw driver to your ear in different spots on the engine to where the noise is loudest.

Thanks for the replies ya'll.
Snippits, I didnt use a puller to pull the crank but I did use those bolt holes to hold it (with homemade tool) so I could crack the crank bolt loose. Doesn't do it at idle. Only at about 2500 -3000 rpm. I was thinking i would re adjust the valves tomorrow just in case. In terms of hearing where it's coming from... if it were a rod knock it would be coming towards the bottom of the engine, yeah?

Sounds like a stuck chain tensioner to me right now.
That suckers needs a specific torque, a bit of loctite.

Could be a rocker arm not running right?

pulled the vc to re adjust valve. All were pretty close. Chain seemed like it had good tension. I was pretty careful installing the tensioner. 14 ft/lbs with loctite (used a nice torque wrench).

There is one spot on the cam shaft that looked a bit suspicious (a slight marr) but could not feel it with my finger nail.

If you can't get the long screw driver to work for you get a proper mechanic stethoscope from harbor freight.

Some tips. Listen along the block not the oil pan, it's thin and won't conduct very well. As you move across up and down the block you should find an increase.

It's hard to tell in the audio, but that might not be exactly following the engine rpms. There is only one moving part that does this and it's the fan, make sure all the nuts are still there and firm.

I picked up a stethoscope and it seems like it was super load on the acorn nut on the vc (first and to the left) although all were pretty loud. The first and to the left nut definitely sounded the most like 'knocking' though. I did also pick up some knock like sounds along the block in the cylinder one area.

Took it on the highway and the rattling/ knocking can faintly be heard in the ab from about 60mph to 70mph. Should I be driving this thing? I really don't want a piston to shoot out the side of the block. My current commute is 1 hr on the high speeds 65-70mph. I

I guess I'll be looking at a low-end re-build in the near future. My question is how much of a priority should I make it? Think I can drive it through winter?

Thanks, guys.

another update:
I tried the following test to feel for play in the rod bearings:
- rotate cyl 1 and 4 (and 2 and 3) just slightly past tdc so they have just began downward motion
- carefully stick screwdriver on top of cylinder (I used the shortest one I could as to now risk scratching cylinder walls)
- press down to feel for movement or listen for sound
- I also went ahead and cranked the engine over without the plugs to blowout any crap that may have gotten agitated from the screwdriver.
referenced in this video -
After doing this a several times on each cylinder, I did not feel any movement in any of the cylinders. Is this a legitimate test? Only other option is pulling the pan I guess which is kind of a PITA.

What else could this noise be (see above post where I found the areas of noise)?

Did you do the "pull each spark plug wire while running" test? Did it go quiet? Did you actually verify TDC? So the valves are good to go? I am still at the valve train as the culprit. I know mine did it on occasion when cold. A quick burst of throttle would usually quiet it. This is either the timing chain tensionier, or a valve rocker. I really doubt it's rod knock. Does it stop when the engine is warm?

Have you seen that the rockers will move "forward and backward", off of the valve itself? I would really like to know why? What does that sping do exactly?
Can it be so that the rocker "jumps" off the valve and is not moving "up and down" in the proper location?

Cracked rockers? Correct rockers? Should be aluminum, not steel. (steel is 20r)
Does it do the noise with the valve cover removed? (Veryfy nothing is hitting the valce cover.)

Your video: so you move the engine with a wrench, back and forth a bit, and feel with the screwsriver for "backlash". If you find backlash, you have a problem and it is indeed a wrist pin or bearing. Probably wrist pin. They tick at a high frequency. But usually a bit higher, almost "pin drop" ticks. Kinda like injectors.
Just touching the pistons with a screwdriver will not do anything at all. You need to move the crank back and forth while you "feel". ?

Just because it's louder at the top or side than the bottom does not mean it isn't rod knock, that could be a little end (wrist pin) gap that is out of spec.

Pull the valve cover look for obvious contact points.

You said there was an issue with one of the cam lobes. Is this near the front of the head? Are there more threads sticking out of rocker adjustment here than the others?

When your chain issue originally occurred. Did it mix water and oil, and if so how long after this may have happened would you estimate the engine was ran?

Does this gnome with a hammer sound change based on throttle position and engine load?

Have not performed the spark plug test yet but I will after work this evening. TDC was verified. TDC cyl #1 for half the valves, rotate crank 360, do other half of valves. Did it while the engine was warm (appx 160 degrees).
Seems to do it both warm and cold starting at about 2000 rpm. Temp doesn't seem to matter.

So are they supposed to move side to side or no? I, to, have wondered what that spring does. Ill pull the vc tonight too and inspect the rocker arm assembly a little closer. How long is it safe to run with the VC off? Until a huge mess is made? ha.

I'll take a look at threads on the adjusters tonight when I get home. I know some folks had mentioned divits are other non flatness on the face of the valve tappets.

I did mix water with oil but only for a short time (estimate of 10-12 highway miles). When I drained the oil it wasn't that milk shaky - there was still a lot of un mixed coolant in the pan though. I am pretty sure it was making this noise before the work I did. I say 'pretty sure' because it was making quite a few different noises when the timing chain was bad (T chain was wicked stretched and smacking the over something fierce plus the ticking of the guide hanging on by one bolt).

Hm. It sound changes in the sense that I can't hear it until about 2500 ish rpm. It is pretty consistent now that I listen back to the audio.

My idiot oil light is not coming on. It worth checking oil pressure with a mech. gauge? I did drop the pan and removed oil pickup (cleaned with carb cleaner and compressed air). I don't know what low oil pressure would sound like?

I can hear it down to idle. I'll record mine on a cold start for reference.
Water and oil don't mix, so that would explain "unmixed coolant"

So you are saying you adjusted the valves just fine?

Safe. The chain will throw the most oil. Ask me how I know. Building a small cover out of a milk jug helps a lot :p

Make sure you upload the video!

I think so, yes. Had slight drag on feeler gauge with no play in the rocker arm when gauge in between valve and tappet.

Good deal. Maybe I'll do this part first. Sounds exciting. I remember I saw a Eric the Car Guy video where he ran a Jeep without the VC. Blew my mind.

Oh if I were to warm the engine up before pulling the VC (shutting the engine off in between of course). Is it OK to rev it up to that 2000 rpm point to hear the sound more clearly.

If you could adjust all valves in the sense that every one does a small click clack when you wiggle them (at proper cam position) - your dizzy is wrong. Pull it out and reinsert it correctly. Cross fingers, start up, insert paperclip into test connector. Adjust RPM to 850. Set the dizzy to 5° on the timing light.

In "light" of this idea: you have not answered if it drops idle down if you insert the paper clip.

Also: can you set the timing the way it is rigfht now? Where is the timing? Does it jump around a lot?

I was only able to adjust half the valves at cyl 1 TDC. The other valves were all open(tight)

I did not check my rpm when I jumped E1 and TE1 but the idle did drop, yes.

I did notice that the timing was a bit 'jumpy' with the E1 and TE1 jumped but I have it set at 5 degrees before tdc as best as I could. Jumps to about 10 - 12 degrees before TDC when I pull the jumper.

I would not do that. But then again, you did say: "it drives fine".

I has got to be the chain.
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...e+chain+rattle

What tensioner is in there? the 99C Vatozone special? Or OEM / kit from 22re, marlin, lce?


Open the VC. Take a long flat screwdriver and see if you can "pop" it out so it pushes against the chain again.

Here is a pic. You want to move in with the long screwdriver, close to the chain above the guide.
A pic for reference from https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/toyo...m-misfire.html

https://preview.ibb.co/jLuCkL/DSC01345.jpg

I used the ITM HD (with metal guides) kit from rock auto(https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...278042&jsn=437). When I pulled the vc before, the chain seemed good and tight but I'll take a look again.

I am terribly confused. Could you adjust all valves (half at tdc number 1, next half after one rotation of the crank) or just the ones from the number 1 piston?

Are they all adjusted?

yep. FSM http://htftp.offroadsz.com/marinhake...nce/2maint.pdf

Under hot engine operations...

So pulled the vc to take another look at things nothing too out of the ordinary but I did notice more marks on the camshaft (see video). Not sure if that would cause this sound or not.

Also pulled each spark plug and revved it up a bit. No change. This sucks - at this point I just wish it were something obvious so I knew for sure.

I do hear a rattling from the timing chain cover but I also hear distinct sounds from the VC area just as loud.

On cold start, when I first turn the truck on I hear a real brief timing chain rattle then it goes away (like within a second).

video :

Chain tension looks fine from here. Kinda running out of ideas here too. :)

Remove belts. Start it up for 10 seconds. Takes all accessories out of the equation.

Reattach belts and swear at it.

You could always run it hard till something breaks, then you will know what it is. :)
In typical Toyota fashion, it will be fine, then it will go away. Or something will happen.

A side tip, in a bigger job mark each bolt you torqued down with a tiny dab of paint. Keeps you sane.

Another idea is: sure the chain guides are down tight? Forget a bolt?

I expect if you drain the oil, do so into a very clean pan incase it is reusable, you are going to find metal. In if so you should pull the pan and reinspect the bottom end.

The spring tensioning the rocker arm, while it may not be its primary purpose, allows you to use your inspection mirror to check the wear pattern. This pattern is best if it is mirror like, even side edge to edge and doesn't reach the trailing edge indicating it's lost its bevel. If it's worn to the trailing edge they need replaced. If it's pointy to one side or the other it needs replaced. If it's gouged or has stripes, it needs replaced. If you have to replace a rocker the cam needs checked.

EW, oil and water most certainly mix. This is the milky honey looking stuff you'll find under your oil fill cap due to the PCV system sucking moist air thru the intake, it's normal here it forms.due to the cap cooling and causing condensation of the oil and water vapors. The PG in antifreeze may actually accelerate this and act as a homogenizer, like acid (lemon or vinegar) when making mayonnaise. Ever seen the white stuff they use when machining aluminium, that is an oil and water mixture, it keeps the bit cool and the chips from sticking, but it has very little suspension characteristics good for machining bad for keeping two parts from touching.

I did find strip like marks and itty bitty scratch marks (could just barely feel with my finger nail) on my cam but I did not think to use an inspection mirror to check the rockers. I will have to do that.

My 92 22RE was doing the exact same thing on cold start, but no rattling after that.

Head gasket was bad, so I installed a new timing kit too. No start up rattle with the new chain kit, but I did use a new Enginetech complete cylinder head. Just bolt it on and go.

Did you have cylinder head milled, or do you know if the cylinder head has been milled?

When I installed the timing kit with new cylinder head, it was a pain in the ass to get the cam sprocket on. It was a very tight fit. No more rattle on cold start, and new timing kit was installed 16 months ago.

yeah took the head to the machine shop where it was pressure tested, machined, and new valve seals installed. I used the LCE engineering trick to get the cam on. Apply upward pressure to the cam with screwdriver while rocking the crank back and forth.

This maybe metal bypassing the oil filter, it maybe from dry start ups (oil film runs off the cam lobes). Dry start wear is increased by not having an anti drain back style filter (it should have a rubber gasket you will see when you look into the openings).

Since you have a new timing set, with a new tensioner I'll assume, you either don't have the proper filter or its running out the crank bearings. So I would count that as another sign (strike) on pulling the pan back off.

Compressing my tensioner takes my biggest pry bar and a few swear words, sometimes.a blood sacrifice.

If it were the crank bearings wouldn't the noise have gone away when I pulled the spark plug or quieted down? There was no effect when pulling the plug wires.

er yeah I guess I dont mean when you say running out the crank bearings. I adjusted the valves COLD at 007 and 011. It seemed to help a little but I might be making that up.

By pulling the pan, I would essentially be yanking and feeling for play, yeah?

^^ In theory, yes.

I still think the tensioner is stuck "inside". Chain tension is great, new, hard to place on camshaft.
Try it with a really long flathead screwdriver.
(edit: I have had this issue)

I find it the most odd that your loudest noise location is on the valve cover bolt/nut. There is a lot of odd geometry there for sound to travel along..

What did the cover under side look like, no indication of contact? If you dab grease on the tappet ends does it transfer to the cover?

Any noticeable wear on the chain guides that would indicate maybe the tensioner isn't functioning as it should?

With the pan removed.. Yes you would do a feel test, if it made any sort of clacking or notable movement it's bad. You would also want to do visual inspection, do the rods look straight, if you rotate the engine over are there clearances between the crank and piston lobes.

How certain are you of the timing cover bolts, there is atleast one I know you can put in the wrong place and have contact issues there.

Yeah, this is extremely aggravating. I bet I have stood around with a stethoscope for a total of 5 hours and nothing.

Inside of valve cover looked fine. Did not look like there was any contact with anything.

Couldn't tell of any odd wear on timing guides. I used the old timing cover as a 'template' as to not mix anything up. Seems like it is really loud coming from the oil pump area?

Again no change when I pull plug wires (one by one).

I did notice something strange this evening. It doesn't seem to do it when it's cold. I can't tell if the fan drowns it out or what but it does not make the chatter/rattle/ knock (whatever you want to call it) right away.

What could this mean?

another update:

removed both belts and ran it (briefly) - noise still there.

Also took a long screw driver and depressed the tensioner a few times in case it was stuck (oil pump bolt is not obstructing tensioner). Noise still there.

I really thought I had found it as one of my exhaust manifold studs loose but upon tightening it down the noise is still there.

It definitely does not do it right on start up. For the first minute or two I rev it up and it sounds fine. After that it starts rattling. Also - seems like I am getting oil pressure up top, i.e. even with the cover loose it's peeing oil out all over.

could this all be then tensioner not getting enough oil pressure (dirty ports)? Wouldn't the oil pressure be higher on startup than when it warms up accounting for it being fine for the first few minutes of running?

I don't know. I am really pulling my hair out. any ideas?

bump bump

You could be sucking up debris into oil pump pick up. This would cause the pressure to drop, then the bits drop after its shut off. A semi obstructed oil galley could have the same behavior.

​​​​put an analog guage on it and check the pressure.

Did you ever inspect the oil for particles?

You could have a cracked exhaust manifold that only leaks when it gets hot and expands. Some exhaust leaks can sound very "mechanical" in nature. Get a piece of rubber hose about 3 feet long and use it to listen to various points around the exhaust system.

I see. Cool - i'll pick up a oil pressure tester gauge.

Did not drain the oil yet and check for particles, though I am quite sure I will find some as there is still probably bits from the chewed up timing guide.

Going to spend some time with it this weekend. I'm thinking I may be pulling the pan and/or timing cover to inspect at this point.

Any quick and dirties to clear out possible gunky oil galleys? sea foam?