new timing chain and guides time/opinions
09-14-2017, 09:45 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
new timing chain and guides time/opinions
After doing a valve adjustment/exploratory surgery, I've discovered (as I expected and somewhat to my chagrin) I need new timing chain guides, and possibly a cover.
pics attached of what i think is me catching the timing chain guide soon after it broke (i'd say within 750 miles).
127k on engine - 22re to w56, 91 pickup 4x4
supposedly rebuilt around 90k, so on 37k on it now... never got a straight answer or records out of the previous owner, but the truck is very clean and block VIN matches frame and cab
In preparation for the upcoming work on my engine, I've done some (read: copious amounts, as is my norm) research and decided to go ahead and do a double row timing chain kit from either 22re perf or LCE. I also toyed with the idea of an adjustable cam gear, but I'm not sure if there is any real benefit for what I want to do when I can adjust the timing with the distributor as easily. long term plans for the engine will be de-smog, intake/battery swap, manifold back exhaust, headers eventually, mild performance cam and possibly some intake plenum/manifold smoothing, along with some other accouterments and trappings.
plan is to replace with a dual row conversion kit, but without having to remove the head. I'll drop the front diff, pull the oil pan and clean it out from the guide pieces, and hopefully track down a pesky oil leak. while I have diff dropped, I'll replace the rear main seal as I suspect it leaks too.
My questions for anyone willing to give me their $0.02 are these:
1. if I plan on using the truck mostly as a daily/little bit of wheeling here and there, and eventually some more serious overlanding/expo/whatever vehicle later on, and given my possible plans for a mild performance cam, would an adjustable cam gear provide any real benefit to me? or is it just superfluous?
2. between the 2 TC double row conversion kits I listed, which one would you recommend and why?
3. are there any other projects you recommend I get done while this deep in the engine?
4. is it really necessary to pull the radiator? does it make life easier?
pics attached of what i think is me catching the timing chain guide soon after it broke (i'd say within 750 miles).
127k on engine - 22re to w56, 91 pickup 4x4
supposedly rebuilt around 90k, so on 37k on it now... never got a straight answer or records out of the previous owner, but the truck is very clean and block VIN matches frame and cab
In preparation for the upcoming work on my engine, I've done some (read: copious amounts, as is my norm) research and decided to go ahead and do a double row timing chain kit from either 22re perf or LCE. I also toyed with the idea of an adjustable cam gear, but I'm not sure if there is any real benefit for what I want to do when I can adjust the timing with the distributor as easily. long term plans for the engine will be de-smog, intake/battery swap, manifold back exhaust, headers eventually, mild performance cam and possibly some intake plenum/manifold smoothing, along with some other accouterments and trappings.
plan is to replace with a dual row conversion kit, but without having to remove the head. I'll drop the front diff, pull the oil pan and clean it out from the guide pieces, and hopefully track down a pesky oil leak. while I have diff dropped, I'll replace the rear main seal as I suspect it leaks too.
My questions for anyone willing to give me their $0.02 are these:
1. if I plan on using the truck mostly as a daily/little bit of wheeling here and there, and eventually some more serious overlanding/expo/whatever vehicle later on, and given my possible plans for a mild performance cam, would an adjustable cam gear provide any real benefit to me? or is it just superfluous?
2. between the 2 TC double row conversion kits I listed, which one would you recommend and why?
3. are there any other projects you recommend I get done while this deep in the engine?
4. is it really necessary to pull the radiator? does it make life easier?
09-14-2017, 11:15 PM
#2
Registered User
It appears that someone has replaced the timing chain in the past because the cam gear is not a factory Toyota part.
I haven't really explored the usefulness of adjustable cam gears, but they adjust the CAM timing in relation to the crankshaft. On the other hand, adjusting the distributor adjusts IGNITION timing. These are two different types of timing!
From the bits and pieces I have gathered, adjustable cam gears are most commonly used for correcting cam timing when the engine block gets milled flat during a rebuild where the engine needed a bit of milling (at least on 22R series engines).
I don't think you can go wrong with either 22RE Performance or LCE.
Edit: How is the rest of the engine? Is it mechanically sound?
I would personally remove the head because I would probably screw up the head gasket anyway when trying to install the cover but it has been done successfully both ways.
I haven't really explored the usefulness of adjustable cam gears, but they adjust the CAM timing in relation to the crankshaft. On the other hand, adjusting the distributor adjusts IGNITION timing. These are two different types of timing!
From the bits and pieces I have gathered, adjustable cam gears are most commonly used for correcting cam timing when the engine block gets milled flat during a rebuild where the engine needed a bit of milling (at least on 22R series engines).
I don't think you can go wrong with either 22RE Performance or LCE.
Edit: How is the rest of the engine? Is it mechanically sound?
I would personally remove the head because I would probably screw up the head gasket anyway when trying to install the cover but it has been done successfully both ways.
Last edited by old87yota; 09-14-2017 at 11:19 PM. Reason: Added more info...
09-14-2017, 11:21 PM
#3
First I think the double Row timing chain kit is a waste of money .
I would love to hear your reason for the change .
If it was the Hot set up why did Toyota discontinue it.
Just remember with the double row kit unless you carry a complete spare kit and your miles from home you might have a considerable wait for your new parts to show up.
There is a very major difference between Cam timing and ignition timing hit the books some more.
Simple the cam timing adjusts when the valves open and close the ignition timing controls when the sparkle plugs fire
With these low horsepower engines it is not really going to get you much .
Not sure just what you expect in the end but if your going Cam and exhaust you might want to think head work get the air fuel mixture in and get the exhaust out.
If your a little tiny person you might get away with leaving the radiator in but why since the coolant needs drained why bother .
Were the oil pump and water pump replaced when the engine was alleged to have been rebuilt ??
Over the years I have heard the phrase engine rebuilt for everything but rebuilding the engine.
I would love to hear your reason for the change .
If it was the Hot set up why did Toyota discontinue it.
Just remember with the double row kit unless you carry a complete spare kit and your miles from home you might have a considerable wait for your new parts to show up.
There is a very major difference between Cam timing and ignition timing hit the books some more.
Simple the cam timing adjusts when the valves open and close the ignition timing controls when the sparkle plugs fire
With these low horsepower engines it is not really going to get you much .
Not sure just what you expect in the end but if your going Cam and exhaust you might want to think head work get the air fuel mixture in and get the exhaust out.
If your a little tiny person you might get away with leaving the radiator in but why since the coolant needs drained why bother .
Were the oil pump and water pump replaced when the engine was alleged to have been rebuilt ??
Over the years I have heard the phrase engine rebuilt for everything but rebuilding the engine.
09-15-2017, 07:01 AM
#4
Registered User
Rear main seal R&R requires pulling the transmission.... not just the oil pan. so its a bit of additional work to a TC cover R&R....
I've done a TC R&R on a dirt driveway... I don't recall dropping the pan (which I have done) and I KNOW I didn't pull the head
I was unable to get a decent seal at the corner where the head meets the TC cover.... - it leaked (a small amount and I used synth oil making it worse) until I DID fix it (because the HG went about a year or two later - I have no idea if those events were related)
On an IFS, pulling the pan is a PITA - either drop the front axle or lift the block or....
I have the dual row conversion kit - probably a waste of money but it is "bling".... and it has metal guides
To Wyoming9's question - my guess is the single row is "less expensive" to manufacture with a minimal reduction in durability in the under 100K range (ranges where failure would come back as a "Toyota quality" perception issue)
You have to drain the coolant to remove the TC cover - no sense leaving the rad in there so you can bash the fins up - pull it.
GENERA_LEE didnt specify his vehicle down time tolerance with respect to this rebuild project, or his labor vs "paid" labor, or his "budget"
After all these years of owning and working on my 22RE - I'd suggest an OEM rebuild, no adjustable timing gear.
If you have the budget - pull the head and get the valves looked at / worked.
Talk to a reputable machinist - they will spend some time chatting about your goals and budget and your options. I ended up with new valves/guides/seats and seals.
In my case, the OEM cam was in decent shape as were the rockers - they went back in.
I used new OEM head bolts - and realized when re installing the head, that ARP head studs make a driveway head R&R almost impossible.
I use Permatex 300 on the OEM paper gaskets - lay em on alum foil and "paint" both sides.
I had previously switched to Lucas Disc injectors (cuz I was young and dumb) - truck runs FINE, but it wasn't worth the conversion effort or $.
If yer taking the head off - and can afford the down time- send the injectors out to get cleaned and flow tested (RC Engineering - https://www.rceng.com/).
IMHO - no real gains from a "big bore" throttle body. (which I also have - my throttle bushing was getting worn so I needed a TB anyway)
Larry Carpenter has long retired from LCE (thats who the LC was)
Id go with 22RE Perfromance - tho they have a HUGE back log.
My head was worked on by a local to me (back then) machinist - Jess Miller - long since retired.
Shop is still around tho
http://www.millersmachineshop.com/
I've done a TC R&R on a dirt driveway... I don't recall dropping the pan (which I have done) and I KNOW I didn't pull the head
I was unable to get a decent seal at the corner where the head meets the TC cover.... - it leaked (a small amount and I used synth oil making it worse) until I DID fix it (because the HG went about a year or two later - I have no idea if those events were related)
On an IFS, pulling the pan is a PITA - either drop the front axle or lift the block or....
I have the dual row conversion kit - probably a waste of money but it is "bling".... and it has metal guides
To Wyoming9's question - my guess is the single row is "less expensive" to manufacture with a minimal reduction in durability in the under 100K range (ranges where failure would come back as a "Toyota quality" perception issue)
You have to drain the coolant to remove the TC cover - no sense leaving the rad in there so you can bash the fins up - pull it.
GENERA_LEE didnt specify his vehicle down time tolerance with respect to this rebuild project, or his labor vs "paid" labor, or his "budget"
After all these years of owning and working on my 22RE - I'd suggest an OEM rebuild, no adjustable timing gear.
If you have the budget - pull the head and get the valves looked at / worked.
Talk to a reputable machinist - they will spend some time chatting about your goals and budget and your options. I ended up with new valves/guides/seats and seals.
In my case, the OEM cam was in decent shape as were the rockers - they went back in.
I used new OEM head bolts - and realized when re installing the head, that ARP head studs make a driveway head R&R almost impossible.
I use Permatex 300 on the OEM paper gaskets - lay em on alum foil and "paint" both sides.
I had previously switched to Lucas Disc injectors (cuz I was young and dumb) - truck runs FINE, but it wasn't worth the conversion effort or $.
If yer taking the head off - and can afford the down time- send the injectors out to get cleaned and flow tested (RC Engineering - https://www.rceng.com/).
IMHO - no real gains from a "big bore" throttle body. (which I also have - my throttle bushing was getting worn so I needed a TB anyway)
Larry Carpenter has long retired from LCE (thats who the LC was)
Id go with 22RE Perfromance - tho they have a HUGE back log.
My head was worked on by a local to me (back then) machinist - Jess Miller - long since retired.
Shop is still around tho
http://www.millersmachineshop.com/
Last edited by ewong; 09-15-2017 at 07:02 AM.
09-15-2017, 10:47 AM
#5
Registered User
1. if I plan on using the truck mostly as a daily/little bit of wheeling here and there, and eventually some more serious overlanding/expo/whatever vehicle later on, and given my possible plans for a mild performance cam, would an adjustable cam gear provide any real benefit to me? or is it just superfluous?
How often would you actually adjust the cam timing? Even on amateur level race cars it isn't done much. When you do get a cam get one that addresses your needs then.
2. between the 2 TC double row conversion kits I listed, which one would you recommend and why?
Double row only because of the extra strength of additional material. Also, a new TC cover is not really necessary. I've had a couple welded up for $25 vs $100 for a new cover.
4. is it really necessary to pull the radiator? does it make life easier?
Easier maybe, since it is out of the way. You can also have it cleaned/rodded while it is out.
How often would you actually adjust the cam timing? Even on amateur level race cars it isn't done much. When you do get a cam get one that addresses your needs then.
2. between the 2 TC double row conversion kits I listed, which one would you recommend and why?
Double row only because of the extra strength of additional material. Also, a new TC cover is not really necessary. I've had a couple welded up for $25 vs $100 for a new cover.
4. is it really necessary to pull the radiator? does it make life easier?
Easier maybe, since it is out of the way. You can also have it cleaned/rodded while it is out.
09-15-2017, 12:55 PM
#6
Registered User
Thread Starter
I'll admit, it was late and i wasnt thinking super clearly when i wrote the whole timing thing. of course, they are totally different. I just had a brain fart.
I'm trying to track down what exactly was done to the engine when it was done a few years ago. we'll see how far i get with that. it seems fine mechanically
til then, I think it would prudent to just replace the water and oil pump since they come with the kit. looking at it piece-meal, with replacing both of those pumps and the cost of the TC kit on its own, it just makes sense to me to get the kit to replace the cover, guides and other bits, chain, pumps, and hardware. i plan to have this for long time, and i like to do things right the first time, so I'll do what needs to be done to get it right within reason
i want to go with the 2 row. no reason other than wanting to. it will be a bit stronger, and I'll know it's there. i'll be sure to get some extras for later on.
i could just get away with replacing the guides and be done with it. but i figure if i have it all apart anyway, i may as well replace all the stuff i can with better parts. repair and replace is a time to upgrade. i'll be doing the labor myself. and i have a daily so this is more of a toy. though i do love driving it so i dont want it down for too long.
i'll pull the radiator. its no big deal. i was just curious if it really got in the way that much.
i actually was gonna pull the rear main seal on the front diff since i'll have it dropped already and i'm pretty sure its leaking a little bit.
to address the oil leak from the half moon seals, i'll pick up the super secret metal ones from 22re performance.
ewong - thats a good call on getting the injectors cleaned. since it will be down, why not.
the adjustable cam gear just sounded sexy. thats really the only reason i asked. i thought it was kind of pointless for me, no circle track racing here
no budget right now to take the head off and take it to a shop to have it and the block looked at.
thanks for the advice guys and opening me up to new options. and calling me out on my stupidity/brain farts haha. this is why i'm on here.
I'm trying to track down what exactly was done to the engine when it was done a few years ago. we'll see how far i get with that. it seems fine mechanically
til then, I think it would prudent to just replace the water and oil pump since they come with the kit. looking at it piece-meal, with replacing both of those pumps and the cost of the TC kit on its own, it just makes sense to me to get the kit to replace the cover, guides and other bits, chain, pumps, and hardware. i plan to have this for long time, and i like to do things right the first time, so I'll do what needs to be done to get it right within reason
i want to go with the 2 row. no reason other than wanting to. it will be a bit stronger, and I'll know it's there. i'll be sure to get some extras for later on.
i could just get away with replacing the guides and be done with it. but i figure if i have it all apart anyway, i may as well replace all the stuff i can with better parts. repair and replace is a time to upgrade. i'll be doing the labor myself. and i have a daily so this is more of a toy. though i do love driving it so i dont want it down for too long.
i'll pull the radiator. its no big deal. i was just curious if it really got in the way that much.
i actually was gonna pull the rear main seal on the front diff since i'll have it dropped already and i'm pretty sure its leaking a little bit.
to address the oil leak from the half moon seals, i'll pick up the super secret metal ones from 22re performance.
ewong - thats a good call on getting the injectors cleaned. since it will be down, why not.
the adjustable cam gear just sounded sexy. thats really the only reason i asked. i thought it was kind of pointless for me, no circle track racing here
no budget right now to take the head off and take it to a shop to have it and the block looked at.
thanks for the advice guys and opening me up to new options. and calling me out on my stupidity/brain farts haha. this is why i'm on here.
09-17-2017, 07:09 AM
#7
Registered User
That timing kit in your engine is from Napa. I had the same kit installed by a back-alley mechanic from India who barely spoke English. He did the job for $500, (parts included) which was great until the tensioner and guides gave out on me in 35k miles. That kit isn't meant to last the 105k mile interval. Napa might replace it under warranty, but I wouldn't put another one back in.
The Japanese OSK single row kit is much better, even if you keep the plastic guides. Go double row if you want, but it's an excessive amount of money considering your purpose.
As long as your piston quench height is within spec, there's no need for an adjustable timing gear on a close-to-stock 22re.
Those alloy half moons from 22reperformance are functional bling. I had to machine one of them down a millimeter, but I've got an Engnbldr head. They probably fit an oem head perfect. They don't leak and you never have to reseal them even when you replace a vc gasket.
The Japanese OSK single row kit is much better, even if you keep the plastic guides. Go double row if you want, but it's an excessive amount of money considering your purpose.
As long as your piston quench height is within spec, there's no need for an adjustable timing gear on a close-to-stock 22re.
Those alloy half moons from 22reperformance are functional bling. I had to machine one of them down a millimeter, but I've got an Engnbldr head. They probably fit an oem head perfect. They don't leak and you never have to reseal them even when you replace a vc gasket.
