New Engine Break in. Has Knock.
09-01-2016, 05:13 PM
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New Engine Break in. Has Knock.
Hey guys,
So after months of getting this engine I built together I finally am able to take it around the block for its first test run. I noticed a few things That I could use some help trouble shooting.
The original build thread is https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f199...lcomed-294343/
First off there seems to be a little bit of a knock at like 2500 to 3500 RPM. It is not noticeable at idle and will usually go away at higher RPM. It is most noticeable when dropping from high to low RPM quickly. I am hoping it has something to do with some of the other things I noticed and is not a rod or a wrist pin.
Second, when checking the timing with a timing light I got from HF, the timing mark was jumping up and down by maybe +/- one degree of the area it is supposed to be. With the fuse jumped for base timing, it was jumping around 4 to 6 degrees (target being 5 degrees), and when out it was jumping around 11 to 13 degrees (Target being 12). I don't know if that is because the timing light is not the greatest or maybe that is an accepted deviation, but I know a timing issue can cause a knock so it is worth consideration.
Third, I noticed that after driving it for a few minutes, the oil pressure light would come on under idle but go out when I give it a little gas. It has enough oil and the proper type, Castrol 10W-30 conventional as recommended by 22RE Performance http://www.22reperformance.com/faqs/...-break-in.html but I thought that was a little weird.
Fourth, the temperature would not get up past just off the bottom of the gauge. I has all new cooling components but it never got around normal operating temperature.
I took a video of the engine and put it up on youtube so you all can take a listen and see what you think.
I was very meticulous in this build and went by the FSM every step, while it is not impossible I made a mistake during assembly, it is unlikely unless the machine shop I got the wrist pins done at messed up or something. I really don't want to take this thing back out so if I can figure it out without doing that, that would be great.
So after months of getting this engine I built together I finally am able to take it around the block for its first test run. I noticed a few things That I could use some help trouble shooting.
The original build thread is https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f199...lcomed-294343/
First off there seems to be a little bit of a knock at like 2500 to 3500 RPM. It is not noticeable at idle and will usually go away at higher RPM. It is most noticeable when dropping from high to low RPM quickly. I am hoping it has something to do with some of the other things I noticed and is not a rod or a wrist pin.
Second, when checking the timing with a timing light I got from HF, the timing mark was jumping up and down by maybe +/- one degree of the area it is supposed to be. With the fuse jumped for base timing, it was jumping around 4 to 6 degrees (target being 5 degrees), and when out it was jumping around 11 to 13 degrees (Target being 12). I don't know if that is because the timing light is not the greatest or maybe that is an accepted deviation, but I know a timing issue can cause a knock so it is worth consideration.
Third, I noticed that after driving it for a few minutes, the oil pressure light would come on under idle but go out when I give it a little gas. It has enough oil and the proper type, Castrol 10W-30 conventional as recommended by 22RE Performance http://www.22reperformance.com/faqs/...-break-in.html but I thought that was a little weird.
Fourth, the temperature would not get up past just off the bottom of the gauge. I has all new cooling components but it never got around normal operating temperature.
I took a video of the engine and put it up on youtube so you all can take a listen and see what you think.
09-02-2016, 04:32 PM
#4
it's lighting up at idle, which is something that you wouldn't expect to see out of a new engine... idle speed is 750rpm?
i think that i would have someone else rev it up, while you get underneath it or something with an engine stethoscope and try to isolate the sound... did you check the valve adjustment?
i think that i would have someone else rev it up, while you get underneath it or something with an engine stethoscope and try to isolate the sound... did you check the valve adjustment?
09-02-2016, 04:51 PM
#5
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You better throw an oil pressure gauge on that thing to make sure you are building pressure.
It's possible you have a lead going bad, or the sensor, or it's not threaded in far enough, or you don't have oil pressure.
The first few aren't a big deal, the latter is a problem.
It's possible you have a lead going bad, or the sensor, or it's not threaded in far enough, or you don't have oil pressure.
The first few aren't a big deal, the latter is a problem.
09-07-2016, 04:27 PM
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09-08-2016, 11:24 PM
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I tried another valve adjustment. It was a cold adjustment but I have done these cold before and not had the rattle issue. Also, I am not sure what is up with the oil pressure light. The sound and oil pressure light only start to come on once it gets warm. I was having a suspicion that as the oil thinned out, I was losing oil pressure which caused valve train noise. But why would I be have a pressure issue only when it is getting warm?
09-09-2016, 05:14 AM
#9
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The idiot light is a terrible indicator of oil pressure. You need an actual oil pressure gauge to see how much pressure you have. You could have a bad wire to the sensor. You don't know. You haven't done anything to diagnose the issue.
If you have no oil pressure, you tapping is the least of your worries. Meanwhile you are destroying your freshly rebuilt motor.
If you have no oil pressure, you tapping is the least of your worries. Meanwhile you are destroying your freshly rebuilt motor.
09-09-2016, 06:03 AM
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What kind of oil pressure gauge fits in these engines?
What reasons would I have no or low oil pressure? I used a new oil pump and all my oil galleys where cleaned and clear. If I test and find low oil pressure, where do I start looking for an issue?
What reasons would I have no or low oil pressure? I used a new oil pump and all my oil galleys where cleaned and clear. If I test and find low oil pressure, where do I start looking for an issue?
09-09-2016, 08:30 AM
#11
Generally speaking, there are two types of oil pressure gauges. .....mechanical and electric. Mechanical requires plumbing from the source to the gauge itself while electric typically uses a "sender" that you mount in the engine compartment (plumbing goes from source to sender and then wires go from sender to gauge). Some may have the sender mounted to the adapter.
Most gauges are universal. The question is where to tap and what hardware is required for your specific application (e.g. thread pitch & size of the adapter that connects to source to allow you to run the tubing). ....can't help you with this though since I am not familiar with this particular application but a search should reveal something. If you can't find an existing place to tap on the engine, oil filter "sandwich" adapters are available as an option.
btw, I agree that you should stop running the engine until you can establish that you have pressure. Most oil lights are set up to illuminate when the pressure is very low (like single digit low).
Most gauges are universal. The question is where to tap and what hardware is required for your specific application (e.g. thread pitch & size of the adapter that connects to source to allow you to run the tubing). ....can't help you with this though since I am not familiar with this particular application but a search should reveal something. If you can't find an existing place to tap on the engine, oil filter "sandwich" adapters are available as an option.
btw, I agree that you should stop running the engine until you can establish that you have pressure. Most oil lights are set up to illuminate when the pressure is very low (like single digit low).
Last edited by Kean; 09-09-2016 at 08:37 AM.
09-09-2016, 09:28 AM
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... Second, when checking the timing with a timing light I got from HF, the timing mark was jumping up and down by maybe +/- one degree of the area it is supposed to be. With the fuse jumped for base timing, it was jumping around 4 to 6 degrees (target being 5 degrees), and when out it was jumping around 11 to 13 degrees (Target being 12). I don't know if that is because the timing light is not the greatest or maybe that is an accepted deviation, but I know a timing issue can cause a knock so it is worth consideration.
Third, I noticed that after driving it for a few minutes, the oil pressure light would come on under idle but go out when I give it a little gas. It has enough oil and the proper type, Castrol 10W-30 conventional as recommended by 22RE Performance http://www.22reperformance.com/faqs/...-break-in.html but I thought that was a little weird.
Fourth, the temperature would not get up past just off the bottom of the gauge. I has all new cooling components but it never got around normal operating temperature....
Third, I noticed that after driving it for a few minutes, the oil pressure light would come on under idle but go out when I give it a little gas. It has enough oil and the proper type, Castrol 10W-30 conventional as recommended by 22RE Performance http://www.22reperformance.com/faqs/...-break-in.html but I thought that was a little weird.
Fourth, the temperature would not get up past just off the bottom of the gauge. I has all new cooling components but it never got around normal operating temperature....
If the temperature doesn't get past the bottom of the gauge, I would suspect a stuck-open thermostat (or one installed incorrectly). Does the upper radiator hose get pretty warm? If it does, you could have a bad ECT sensor or gauge. If it only gets warm, suspect the thermostat.
What causes low oil pressure? Again, all answers .... http://web.archive.org/web/201501160.../3troubles.pdf You could have a bad or blocked oil pump, but more likely your crankshaft bearings and wrist pins are showing their age. I didn't read through your build thread; did you Plastigauge all those bearings? Once the the very tiny gap starts to open up, there isn't as much pushing back against the pump, and it can't get the pressure as high. The solution is to use an oil with higher viscosity; try 10w40, or go nuts with 20w50 (these are often shilled as "high-mileage" oils, for that reason).
I know you're trying to help, but telling someone to slap a pressure gauge on, without any indication of what to look for, isn't a lot of use.
09-09-2016, 09:51 AM
#13
For the record, I'm not telling him to "slap" a gauge on. He asked a question about what kind of gauge fits in this application and I answered it. ....as for the single-digit reference, I'll admit fault for not knowing the operating range dipped that low on this application.
09-09-2016, 12:58 PM
#14
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I agree with @Kean and defend their point. It isn't so much about just slapping on an oil pressure gauge, it's that low oil pressure is the paramount problem. You can troubleshoot the low temp issue and top end tap later.
A lack of oil pressure will do serious harm to the motor!!!
As a standard part of diagnostics on a lit oil pressure warning light, installing a service gauge (whether in a separate port or using the original stock port near the oil filter on the passenger side of the block) is second only after checking that there is in fact oil in the motor. Putting a service gauge on does several things, it provides the tech with an actual value of oil pressure being generated not simply a yes or no variable. It also determines if the monitoring system i.e. the sending unit, ground, wiring, etc. is the culprit if you have adequate pressure readings from a reliable gauge.
If your service gauge does NOT read appropriate oil pressure, then you move on to possible reasons for genuine low oil pressure: faulty oil pump, too large clearances in the crank journals, blocked passageways in the block, etc.
While the service manual does list at operating temperature and idle the minimum acceptable oil pressure is 4.3 psi (wow) I would be very cautious if you have an oil pressure light at idle. 4psi leaves nearly no room for error of scuffing or spinning the bearings. The last time I rebuilt my 22RE on start up I had 12 psi at idle with an older bottom end and just a refreshed top-end. Going over your build thread, you said after @Terrys87 suggestion that you went back in a plastigaged your journals. Do you remember what your values were? Originally you commented that your machinist jokingly stopped measuring these crank rebuilders because they are always in spec. Did you order stock bearings or oversized?
A lack of oil pressure will do serious harm to the motor!!!
As a standard part of diagnostics on a lit oil pressure warning light, installing a service gauge (whether in a separate port or using the original stock port near the oil filter on the passenger side of the block) is second only after checking that there is in fact oil in the motor. Putting a service gauge on does several things, it provides the tech with an actual value of oil pressure being generated not simply a yes or no variable. It also determines if the monitoring system i.e. the sending unit, ground, wiring, etc. is the culprit if you have adequate pressure readings from a reliable gauge.
If your service gauge does NOT read appropriate oil pressure, then you move on to possible reasons for genuine low oil pressure: faulty oil pump, too large clearances in the crank journals, blocked passageways in the block, etc.
While the service manual does list at operating temperature and idle the minimum acceptable oil pressure is 4.3 psi (wow) I would be very cautious if you have an oil pressure light at idle. 4psi leaves nearly no room for error of scuffing or spinning the bearings. The last time I rebuilt my 22RE on start up I had 12 psi at idle with an older bottom end and just a refreshed top-end. Going over your build thread, you said after @Terrys87 suggestion that you went back in a plastigaged your journals. Do you remember what your values were? Originally you commented that your machinist jokingly stopped measuring these crank rebuilders because they are always in spec. Did you order stock bearings or oversized?
09-09-2016, 01:44 PM
#15
there isn't any calibrated standard that gets applied to oil pressure senders, gauges, and lights, so quibbling over exact psi probably doesn't mean much.
the only time that i've ever seen a oil pressure light at idle, on a motor that wasn't defective, was with high-mileage engines that had too slow of an idle speed... turn the idle up to spec, or slightly above spec, the light would go out, but those engines will run forever like that.
which is why i asked what the idle speed was... although it does sound fast enough in the video, it needs to be set to at least factory spec.
i certainly wouldn't tear this engine down without further troubleshooting first... set the idle speed, if that doesn't do it replace the sender, then maybe a gauge.
if it still looks low... has anyone ever tried pulling the valve cover off of a running 22re, and checking for oil flow where it lubes the parts? you can do that with v-8's, it's an old chevy trick for adjusting the valves.
22re cam lobes dip into a well of oil, tho, so it might not be advisable.
the only time that i've ever seen a oil pressure light at idle, on a motor that wasn't defective, was with high-mileage engines that had too slow of an idle speed... turn the idle up to spec, or slightly above spec, the light would go out, but those engines will run forever like that.
which is why i asked what the idle speed was... although it does sound fast enough in the video, it needs to be set to at least factory spec.
i certainly wouldn't tear this engine down without further troubleshooting first... set the idle speed, if that doesn't do it replace the sender, then maybe a gauge.
if it still looks low... has anyone ever tried pulling the valve cover off of a running 22re, and checking for oil flow where it lubes the parts? you can do that with v-8's, it's an old chevy trick for adjusting the valves.
22re cam lobes dip into a well of oil, tho, so it might not be advisable.
Last edited by osv; 09-09-2016 at 01:47 PM.
09-10-2016, 03:40 AM
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Hey guys, I appreciate the help here. I am narrowing it down and I am gonna go today to harbor freight to pick up a gauge.
Scope103, thanks for the replay man. So my engine does not have a knock sensor on it, neither did the used block I picked up. From what I understand that is fairly normal, however I may be wrong and if it has an effect on the timing I guess it is something to look into (However I don't even have a connector on my wire harness to go to one?). As for the temperature, it is a new thermostat and it is definitely installed right. The upper hose does get warm so maybe the sensor is bad. I cleaned off all the contacts for the sensors as was recommended but maybe one is just bad. I did a lot of reading up on the causes of low oil pressure and like you said, a suspect is worn bearings. The strange thing is that I plastigauged all of my bearings and if I remember correctly they where all in spec, however more towards the upper end of the accepted range. If any of them where out of spec I would have stopped there but they where definitely not as small as I would have liked, but I figured a remanned crank and all will have some value deviation. If I tried higher weight oil and it fixes the issue, does that mean it is an issue with my bearings? Is it ok to break in the engine with higher weight oil or at that point should I just take it back out and redo it all?
Since it has been a few months I can't remember if they where stock bearings or oversized. I used the ones that came with the crankshaft rather than the ones from ENGNBLDR because they should have been matched to the crank. In either case I PG'd them and they fell within accepted range, however close to the higher clearance value.
I think my plan of action is gonna be to get the gauge, check out the actual pressure and go from there.
If it is the bearings, I guess I am gonna have to pull the whole engine back out?
Scope103, thanks for the replay man. So my engine does not have a knock sensor on it, neither did the used block I picked up. From what I understand that is fairly normal, however I may be wrong and if it has an effect on the timing I guess it is something to look into (However I don't even have a connector on my wire harness to go to one?). As for the temperature, it is a new thermostat and it is definitely installed right. The upper hose does get warm so maybe the sensor is bad. I cleaned off all the contacts for the sensors as was recommended but maybe one is just bad. I did a lot of reading up on the causes of low oil pressure and like you said, a suspect is worn bearings. The strange thing is that I plastigauged all of my bearings and if I remember correctly they where all in spec, however more towards the upper end of the accepted range. If any of them where out of spec I would have stopped there but they where definitely not as small as I would have liked, but I figured a remanned crank and all will have some value deviation. If I tried higher weight oil and it fixes the issue, does that mean it is an issue with my bearings? Is it ok to break in the engine with higher weight oil or at that point should I just take it back out and redo it all?
Since it has been a few months I can't remember if they where stock bearings or oversized. I used the ones that came with the crankshaft rather than the ones from ENGNBLDR because they should have been matched to the crank. In either case I PG'd them and they fell within accepted range, however close to the higher clearance value.
I think my plan of action is gonna be to get the gauge, check out the actual pressure and go from there.
If it is the bearings, I guess I am gonna have to pull the whole engine back out?
09-10-2016, 09:29 AM
#17
all 22re have knock sensors, but knock sensors won't have any effect at idle, because the engine isn't under any load.
09-10-2016, 10:14 AM
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... So my engine does not have a knock sensor on it, neither did the used block I picked up. From what I understand that is fairly normal, however I may be wrong and if it has an effect on the timing I guess it is something to look into (However I don't even have a connector on my wire harness to go to one?). ...
I'm no expert in the 22re (heck, I don't know much about the 3VZE, either), but I'm pretty sure osv is correct on all counts.
This thread suggests that 2wd trucks don't have a knock sensor https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f120...re-one-258929/ I will say that the posters don't sound too sure of that, and it makes no sense to me.
Here are some photos of the location: http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/80...-cel-obdi.html
What I can't understand is why you don't have code 52. It won't show up at idle, but even without load once you go over 2000 rpm for a few seconds you should get it.
http://web.archive.org/web/201410310...26diagnosi.pdf So I guess I'd better ask: does your CEL come on with key-on, engine-off?
Last edited by scope103; 09-10-2016 at 10:24 AM.
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