ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Roger, ....

I'm beginning to think, aside from possibly needing my Modulator I'm borrowing tomorrow... Something is wrong with my rig within the EFI/Harness, something, lol...

What would cause My idle to spontaneously/suddenly crawl up to around 1000rpm while sitting at a light(Very rare, but it does happen on occasion)?

I'll be sitting at a light and it just crawls up and I can't feather it or unstick it(not saying it's stuck, lol)... It's as if it's reading something/something's malfunctioning/ and telling it to idle up.

I have a NEW IACV from the Dealer... Idles up Great! Just curious what could cause it to climb like that other than an intermittent vacuum leak or unmetered air getting in????

One more question; Do you think my plan is a logical one so far? Put in the New Modulator(possibly EGR or at least make SURE it's clear on that passage up to the Modulator) and keep the timing at 4* or so(it was at 8* for the test) and maybe add/do a tank of RXP?

PS> It's more stinky at the pipe than I remember... NOT rotten eggs... More like Nail Polish Remover? lol. Does lean smell nasty?

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

My approach:

1. Smog test
2. Pass test - go to step 5
3. Fail test - go to step 4
4. Try some things - go to step 1
5. Done

Basically keep trying things until you pass.

No idea on the idle, check things and find out what is off. What I did when I rebuilt my engine some years back was to go though every thing (sensor or device) on the engine and assume it was bad. Then test it and either confirm it is bad or prove it is good.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Thanks again for all your help, Roger... I just can't seem to find a 'GENERAL consensus' on Smog Tricks! HEY, maybe a "Cheap Tricks" smog section? lol... I'm sure it's probably there, nvm, lol.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

PS> Is it true>>>> I can't go to a 'pass or don't pay' station... Cuz they're REQUIRING me to go to a 'Test Only Authorized' Facility? I need to look into that one, lol. I don't wanna "use ONE OF THOSE guys as much because I want to figure out what's wrong. Running LEAN is NOT GOOD, I know that much, lol.

I really think SO MANY of your ideas are great. Including the restricting plate... That REALLY makes sense!

Is it possible that I don't seem to have LOTS of vacuum cuz of my 2.25" to the back exhaust without restriction? It runs LIKE A RAPED APE, Roger... That's what I don't understand... Today, 110frwy near PCH.... 88MPH NO PROBLEM! No popping or pinging on 'throttle release', etc. I CAN'T MAKE this thing ping until I REALLY drop the timing. lol.

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

Well, pinging is caused by ADVANCED timing. And you have a knock sensor that causes the ECU to retard timing if any pinging is detected.

If you have not pulled the header to check the little EGR passages in the flange, do that, I figure that dropped me 1000 on the NOx reading.

Hard to say exactly what is the cause of your problem, I mentioned the things I did on mine. I failed the test, smog guy gave me a few tips. I went home and spent a day or two under the hood doing all the things I mentioned earlier. My theory was not enough exhaust gas back through the EGR, so I tried everything I could think of to make for more flow. You have the pressure difference (exhaust to intake) and the restrictions to flow. Simple minded approach, INCREASE pressure difference / DECREASE restrictions = MORE flow.

Grego92

iTrader: (4)

Nice talking to you Mark, I could sense your frustration and feel for ya. You were wondering about my cam and it's a engnbldr 268, but I think comparing to me is out the door now that I understand the difference in systems.

Yes Roger, mine is a 92' 22RE. I was clueless about the different EGR systems until Mark advised me over the phone...I thought a 22RE was 22RE in that sense.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Still not sure on the octane I should use or whether or not to use RXP Gas Kicker? I understand if you're not wanting to add into those variables. NO worries. Just curious what your theory on the type of fuel/how to 'run it' before the test/whether to use additives like 'rbx or guaranteed to pass' are. I saw it discussed so much in Big Mikes Marlin Crawler Thread on "How to Pass Smog"... Thought I'd get your 'engineering' thoughts on it, lol. Mike seems to say that Higher Octane will cause it to burn cooler... and to use QUALITY Gas like 76 Pro-stuff. He even mentioned 'methane' in his mind being better than using alcohol(another which many try and according to them 'pass' with, lol). Others seemed to argue "87 is better for smog tests, it's what they're designed to run on". lol.

Either way, I WILL NOT just "PASS" and let this go... I WANT this running as it's supposed to. If that means I need to add backpressure or even flow to improve my A/F ratio... TOTALLY interested! lol. Last thing I want is to run this thing 'lean' for the first 10000 miles, lol. Put a lot of work into it for my first 22RE full rebuild on my own... I want her runnin 'clean', lol.

I also hear ya on the 'act as though it's all broken and fish through till you verify it's not'... I tested EVERYTHING on this rig so many times... But never seemed to get anything 'off' but the TPS, which I replaced per your instructions. AFM was a lillllllll bit 'questionable' on a couple, but I believe you told me, "Meh, close enough for sure... it's not new". What I DID do differently on this build... I replaced the CTS I had from Napa back to my original Sensor. I'm going to warm it up in the morning and do the 'scale test' with the Multi-meter, till it's back to cool.

Thanks, Grego... I really appreciated you lending an ear and your thoughts... It got me thinking, which never hurts in the "process of elimination", ya know?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

I also did my "LAMBDA" with the 15MPH results where I passed.... The number was 1.02...

It says "that's acceptable", but it's right on the margin of entering 'yukky', lol.

It also says my Air/Fuel Mixture on that test is '15'.... According to what Roger was telling me(what I've read on a lil now)... 15 is even worse than the 14.87 that I got from my 25MPH test. That makes some sense, I THINK, lol, ....since the HC reading on 15MPH was higher.

Anyway, thought I'd add that to the mix, ...why not, right? lol.

wreckedrex

FWIW I had a maganaflow cat die on me inside of 1 year and I failed a smog. I doubt I had 5k miles on it. To be fair the truck had some issues and I'm pretty sure the crappy muffler shop I used boogered in the wrong part, but I'd never failed with the 215k mile factory part. A bad cat should read bad across the board though.

Give it a shot the loaner modulator, dropped timing and good gas. A lot of the test only places will do $25 pre-tests, or a free re-test if you fail. I've never seen a pass or don't pay one though, pretty sure that's a no-no for them.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for chiming in, Rex, greatly appreciated. I think most have either added what they can(making the rest either speculative or redundant repetition at this point, lol)... or they just, like myself, never put VERY much thought into 'NOX' or otherwise aside from 'cleaned out my EGR'. It's confusing stuff, but like everything, with enough re-reading, the '5 Parts' and how they're created/limited begins to make sense... You know, like ELECTRICAL for most of us! hahaha. THANKS, Roger, everyone, for helping me to understand all this/confirm or rule out, etc. So far, it's saving me from LOTS of cabbage in handing it over to a 'Smog Repair Station', haha.

That "cat story" is apparently not that uncommon, now that I read on this a while in diff. threads. I think one thing that might be working against me is that they installed a "higher flow 3-way CAT" with 2.25" in and out ends. I REALLY think that had they 'made' the 1.75" stock size cat fit, .... it would have helped create more backpressure, thus, that would have helped my EGR work at least a lil better. Roger's honing things out and adding the backpressure restricting plate REALLY seemed to drop his numbers greatly... And he didn't replace the EGR or Modulator from what I can remember(with my Honeybaked Ham for a brain at the moment! hahaha)...

I'm probably going to stop by my buddies exhaust shop(he moved from where I had this done to a new shop) and see if he can't fix me up something like Rogers restricing plate(something I can remove or not, ya know?), just to HELP the system. I'm pretty sure he has a 'scope' as well... This would maybe allow me to find out what's going on 'pre and post CAT', ya know? 189$ is not something I want to throw at this red beast if I don't have to, ...ALREADY, AGAIN! lol. Plus, I've been told by a couple smog guys(not sure if Scope was one) that the CAT is NOT great at removing NOX, but it's better at HC and C02/CO.

I'm pulling the EGR in the next few days(soon as I have time and can leave the rig 'down', ya know?), then deciding on whether or not to replace it. I think it's in better shape than the modulator. After reading the technical data on the EGR and Modulator diaphragms... IIRC the EGR is 'rated at 16million cycles' where as the Modulator is much less. I'll have to find the link and post it up(in case anyone gives a hoot, lol).

I will also run this tank with the RXP to just aid in removing anything that's built up over these 3-4K miles of this new rebuild and to lower combustion temps when I go in with a fresh tank of Premium 76 Pro Fuel. Not sure, while I've seen guys do the Alcohol trick and then go on without issue.... not sure I think that's a great idea, for the 02 or anything else internally. RXP seems to be pretty trusted stuff and has been tested quite a bit(gonna read up on it a lil more)....

Bottom line, I have about 3 more weeks til it's due... So I'll do all I can as Roger and Scope and others have instructed... Then I'll head in and see what it reads, ya know? If it fails, I move on to 'trying more stuff'. I'm really, in large part, posting alot of this stuff to help people learn along with me(and I'm not the only guy in CA that will fail this year, right? lol)... I really do want to learn more and more every day and pay it forward as well, ya know?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Oops, double post... not sure, meh! lol.

Buck87

You should be able to take her to a smog tune up shop and get her tested and adjusted it just won't count. I did that with my old Chevy van (Vanna White) after she failed. They replaced an oil fouled plug hooked it up and it passed. I took it straight to the test only station and it passed again. I was good for 2 more years probably on 7 cylinders.

ToyoTech559

If your hc and co are ok. Don't worry about the cat. The cat does nothing for the nox. Idk about 4 degree timing. If specs is 10. I would go to like 7. Again warming the cat will only help with hc and co. My buddy failed his nox and ended up being his timing.

Grego92

iTrader: (4)

Toyotech, I think what Chef and 4crawler are opining is that the design, rather than function, of the aftermarket cat (a larger diameter piping 2.25" rather than a stock 1.75") could be affecting the back pressure that is needed to make the egr modulator function at it's optimum level, which could then affect the NO. At least that's what I'm understanding from all this discussion.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

WOOT, WOOT! lol...>>> more discussion! That's what I like to hear(see in this case, lol).

Yeah, I should have done that in the first place, I know.. But I figured since it was NOT THAT built beyond factory and since it's running so clean compared to before the first rebuild(which is when I smogged it, May 2010, before tearing it down)..., well, I just thought it was would be 'FLYING COLORS, WOW, YOU ROCK' ....or something like that! hahaha. Then I saw the numbers and......................

............................... hahaha

If I fail again(God willing I wont)... I'll see what's open to me. I'm fairly certain, as well, that I have NO CHOICE at this point(for the next/retest) but to go back to the same shop. I guess so many go to a "those guys" place after the failing that C.A.R.B. is trying to put a stop to that. I mean, they KNOW if someone failed you... they're likely to do it again if it's not up to specs! lol.

Ahhhh, ok... yeah, I had been reading that... But yes, as Grego was saying, below.. I'm MOSTLY, at this point, trying to figure out if "my set up" has anything to do with my failing. For example; Grego has an OEM Orig. CAT... It's 1.75", so it creates more backpressure.... which creates a more efficient EGR and Modulator system... which in turn lowers NOX... Right? Difference is this; Grego has a 92 with 2 02 Sensors and a different type of Injector(better, lol) and an EGR Temp Sensor(think those came about in 88 or 89??? I'll have to look)... But he also has that smaller diameter exit and entry CAT... That HAS to create more backpressure, having a 1/2" less path of resistance to get through with my system. AND, as Roger said, "I put in the restriction plate in the exhaust on my LCE and then bored out all the EGR passages.... Passed by a 1000 less on NOX after that/After failing".... Makes very good sense to me... I mean, Grego has a more advanced ECU/EFI system, even down to the EGR system being monitored and also a PAIR system, ya know? (Those came in 88+ as well, right? PAIR pipe?)... So he's BOUND to pass cleaner than myself, anyhow, let alone with better injectors, etc., right? hahaha.

Yep and Nope.... Kinda just discussing it in general, ...but YES, for sure, I think it is more about "How much resistance to flow is there AFTER the Exhaust Manifold on the head?" Also, "How much restriction is there in the EGR passages, even in the ones between the Exhaust port and EGR hole, let alone the intake side that get's all clogged up. So, even if you had good backpressure.... if those passages are all gunked up, ... HOW IN THE HECK can that backpressure be effective and cause enough pressure to operate the modulator and then EGR? RIGHT? Lol.. Seriously... Roger cleared that up for me on the "Look, the EGR passages are SO SMALL compared to the rest of the Exhaust..... NO WONDER they struggle to create efficient/constant backpressure, etc.". ..... and all that other stuff that he said that I just don't get 100%(close, but I'm just trying to look it over and over until that 'CLICK' in my head goes off and where I then "have it memorized for good", lol.. BOY that's tough to do right now in my life~! hahahaha).

MUCH of what I was not considering in the beginning was JUST THAT.... "85-87 EFI, compared to later models, especially 89 and up... is AT FAR MORE of a disadvantage!".... It can't adjust ANYTHING, really, in relation to the EGR.... Really, think about this... Why is there an 02 Sensor AFTER the CAT? I kinda thought about it before... but not much... now it makes TONS more sense, and I see how it REALLY can DRAMATICALLY effect the relationship of the ECU to Emissions. What I WANT to do is drop a 3RZ in the donor that I FINALLY FIND, lol, eventually(Maybe a 1UZ, haven't decided)... But then I realized.... "Hmmm, that means if it's more than 5 years newer difference in manuf. year of motor and my rig.... I then am held to the standards of the "94 1UZ Emissions"... NOT my 87's any longer. Look at how much more they allow me than you even, Grego, ya know?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

PS> Toyo.... sorry bud, forgot;

My timing/Factory, is 5*BTDC with T and E1 Jumped. Idle thereafter at 750rpm.... MUCH different than the 3.0. Heck, it might even be different from Grego's or another one like Ian's 22re, ya know? (I don't think so... Just sayin). So being that it's recommended 5*btdc.... The smog guy said 'BE CAREFUL going below that... it could raise your HC substantially... which would make you fail on that end'... My HC on the 15MPH test was 93 and the max is 131... Hopefully I can squeeze by with a much better number with the new modulator and other stuff I'm doing, including the timing... But my timing WAS at 8*BTDC during the 1st Test... He said "even if your modulator was working fine(which it might be)..... You'd still have had trouble because higher advanced timing creates higher internal combustion temps and leaner conditions. Lean=HEAT too.

The reason I bring this up is cuz it's SO CONFUSING who to believe, cuz so many say, "I would go as close to Zero as they'll let you".... Problem is, I can only go to 2*.. Because the law it plus or minus 3* from Factory spec. But as Roger and Bob(the smog guy)explained more to me... I can see why retarding the timing TOO much could take it the other directon.

Who knows, maybe my CAT IS already taking a dump, lol... But once I get this thing dialed in according to smog specs, etc... then I'll know the mixture of Air/Fuel is much more "Optimal for the engines best longevity/mileage/while keeping SOME power and avoiding this nightmare"... and THEN, if I DO need a new CAT again sooner than I'd like... at least IT'LL LAST ME A COUPLE MORE YEARS, EH? lol.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

PSS> Grego... could you post up that link to that supplier you use for OEM Yota parts? (free shipping?) Thanks

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

PSSS> hahaha...... I picked up the New Modulator from my buddy today... So part of the way there, right? hahaha.

Grego92

iTrader: (4)

They are Conicelli Toyota in PA, so no tax for us and free shipping over $100. They also have a 5% off code if you sign up for their text messaging notices.

partznet.com but when you click the toyota icon it will take you here....

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocat...40&catalogid=0

If it's a part I'm unfamiliar with then I usually use the diagrams from toyotapartseast.com and then if i need to i'll get the full part number from toyotapartszone.com, then search for it on partznet.com.

rworegon

The above statement does not appear to be accurate regarding a three-way catalytic converter (TWC), to wit:
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h64.pdf - actually a Toyota document
http://www.cchem.berkeley.edu/molsim...bkgcatcon.html
http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/mod/ouco...&section=1.2.2
http://www.dcl-inc.com/component/content/article/61
http://www.zrchem.com/applications/twc.asp

Chef, I'm not saying your Cat is dead, but I'm putting this out here for general learning and to dispel the notion that the TWC has no impact on NOx when, in fact, it does.

Have your seen these articles...different Toyota engine, but good diagnostic tips although your system might be of an older design:
http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/082009_04.pdf
http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/092009_04.pdf