ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Thanks, Terry, Scope

OK, I finally had time today to dig into the FSM(I have an 88 FSM, no 87 available that I could find. ONLY difference I can see is that the EGR in the 88 has an electronic gas temperature sensor? Otherwise, the BVSV, EGR and Modulator... all of it appears to have the same set up on the 22RE.)

Upon digging I FINALLY found the EFI-EGR section beginning at "EC-12" in the FSM.

The ONLY problem I'm having is that the sketch of the vacuum diagram is very hard to discern(as to which hose goes where.) HOWEVER: As I've said, I'm pretty sure I have it right. I'm going out now to "follow the routing" through the Diagram on the Hood for "emissions".


..........I'll be back with a video of how my vacuum lines are routed.

*NOTE* ;

I found an extra Modulator that I have from a yard..... I thought mine had a hole in the top, but the sticker is actually in tact... Sorry about that. Also, I used the mighty-vac to measure the Modulators ability to 'hold 5" '........ The one I "FOUND" dropped an inch of vacuum every couple seconds.... The one I have on there held fairly well, dropping an inch, oh, maybe every 10 seconds? (I started thinking my Mighty-VAC might be defective... But it's fairly new and it seemed to work fine at holding 5" of Vacuum when placing the hose from the pump directly onto the top of the EGR.)

I'll start with the video of the routing, thus, ruling out a 'emissions vacuum hose routing issue'... K?

Buck87

Thought I would post this from my '87 so that you dont have to bother.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

* Emissions Vacuum Routing checks out as directed by FSM and Hood Sticker

* Ran a couple tests with Vacuum Gauge >>>>>>>




Actually, I only got through SOME of the first page and #6 of page EC-14(I believe I posted a video showing those results; It stalled out when I pulled a few inches vacuum on the EGR).........

In EC-13, #1, the Modulator appears to be clean still. I will blow it out with air, regardless.

In EC-13, #2 and #3,.... I verified it started.

In EC-13, #4, .... I think in moving out to the driveway I got it above 86*F (However, it was under 2" vacuum at 3500RPM, much lower than it was in step #5, warmed up)

In EC-13, #5, Steps A and B .... I warmed it up for several minutes and tested as instructed; It showed under 3" Vacuum(Maybe 2.5"?)

.....In Steps C, D and E I hit a wall because I'm not exactly sure which to connect where. I will elaborate in a minute......

In EC-14, #6, .... I had done a video of this... I applied direct vacuum to the top of the EGR... The motor DID, in fact, want to die, quickly.

Also wanted to mention that the EGR to Plenum pipe is not REALLY warm... It's warm, just not as warm as I thought it'd be, ya know? Of course, most of this was at idle and a couple RUSHES of RPM... so maybe after a good drive in traffic, around town, I'll check it again to verify it's getting good and warm-medium hot.

************************************************** *************



That's it so far... I'll post more findings as I go.

PS> Registration fees aren't due til May 18th... So I have a lil more time than I'd thought. Gives me almost a month, pretty cool, right? hehehe.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Ahhhh, I get it...... I blew up the PDF pic of EC-13, #5 and it goes as I thought, in part....

1. Plug the R on Modulator directly to Plenum 3 Port Unit
2. Plug the EGR into one side of the T to the Vacuum Gauge
3. Plug with Screw, the hose that's still on the rail that went to R on the Modulator(???)
4. Place the Last line on the rail that went to the EGR into the other side of the T of the gauge

#3 that I posted above is all I'm curious on... Doesn't SAY to plug it.... But has a lil 'BLIP' at the end of the hose that I'M GUESSING indicates a screw/bolt/plug...

Then; It says, "Check that the Vacuum Gauge indicates HIGH vacuum at 3000RPM" I will see what I find.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

* EC-13, #5, Steps 'C' and 'D'; Hooked up as instructed and found 15-18" Vacuum as I hit 3000RPM(give or take)

So, from there, it starts telling me to 'INSPECT EACH ITEM INDIVIDUALLY'..... Ahhhhhhh hahaha.

ksti

, Part C, D and E.... I'm wondering exactly which hoses to plug where. I have a vacuum gauge and pump... I want to use the Gauge to hook up right... But what do they mean when saying, "Disconnect the vacuum hose from R port from the vacuum modulator and connect R port directly to the intake manifold with another hose."... What do I do with the hose I've just removed from the Modulator-R that's still connected to the Vacuum rail? Is it saying to plug that hose from the rail into the gauge on one side of the T and just take a spare hose and connect the R Port on the modulator directly to the plenum? If that's the case.... Where does the other side of the T to the Gauge go? Sorry, I just don't get it.... Gonna blow up the pic on the FSM pdf... but it's very hard to tell with those crappy sketches, grrr! lol.

Now i'm really lost lol

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Well of course! Isn't it just like a Spider Monkey(with an EVIL SMILE) to mock me and misquote me! hehehe... Seriously... I have no idea where you got that... I did NOT say anything of the sort! heheheheheh.... Nope... I won't confess! lol.

JK, WUTUP, KSTI!

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Just to summarize;

1. I've verified all Vacuum routing for my 87 22RE 4Runner
2. I've ran Several of the first few tests in the FSM(Section EC-13 and EC-14, through Step #6).... So far, each 'initial' test is passing.
3. One left in those first couple pages to check(which I KNOW I've done before)... "Check BVSV while Motor is Cold/Under 86*F... So that's next


NEXT:

1. Check Each Component, more in-depth, individually;

.....A. BVSV
.....B. Modulator
.....C. EGR
.....D. Possibly Run the Basic Tests for the 02 Sensor

Anything you Smog Pro's can think of that I should add to the things I'm finding in the FSM? (I.e. ; Should I just take this in to a Smog-MECHANIC with a scope, etc., and let him get to the bottom of it ASAP? ..... And no, I'm not in a raging hurry... But within reason, ya know?)

Thanks, guys....

Mark

ksti

When I smoged my 3vzzzy last year The guy that was performing test saw my timing was advanced to 13o, gave me a dirty look and then set it back to 10o BTDC I saw your results and noticed it was 7o did you set it back to 5o and re-check?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey KSTI, ..

I did not set it back... He checked it and at 7-8*BTDC he said, "that's within parameters... Can't be more than 2* off"...... I didn't think I could and have him test it again right then and there......... And also; Being that it was so off on the NoX at 25MPH.... I thought I'd better check through the EGR System just to be sure before I trust that alone to make it pass, ya know?

Also, I'd throw Supreme 91 octane in from Mobil or something... But I have a full tank...... So gotta go through the Costco 87 first, then refill at Mobil or Chevron, maybe? (someone else mentioned that as 'it might help a lil').... And even then, I DO NOT want to be running lean, as that's the primary cause for premature engine failure. "Better rich than lean", from everything I've ever learned on the racing motors I'd built. (not for smog, but for longevity of the motors).

I'll continue with the testing per FSM.... Hopefully some guys "in the know" will chime in with more goodies from their 'experience' bags! lol. I can't say, knowing as little as I do about emissions, "well, at this point, I don't think it's the EGR System"... I'll check through this stuff til I rule it out/conclude it is likely in the culprit catagory/.......whatever.

Thanks, very much, guys... Always enjoy fishing through the possibilities to hunt the gremlins with my Yotatechie Bro's! lol.

ksti

So what I'm wondering is, eventhough 7-8*BTDC is within parameters, could that still fail it at 25MPH and not idle?. Does it run worse at 5*..... AT 7-8* wouldn't it be running richer especially at higher RPM's thus causing fail? Sorry for all the dumb questions but I'm learning as we go.This is like a CSI case lol.

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

Looks like high NOx was the problem? If so, retard the timing as much as you can. I turn mine as close to 0* as they'll let ,e. In fact, if you find a place that does not know about the timing check jumper, you can set the timing to 5* un-jumpered. But retarded timing = later fuel burn = lower combustion pressure/temperature = less NOx. Also I find the factory EGR system is just not up to the treadmill tests, it was designed in the old idle test days. It can't flow enough exhaust gas to do much good at speed. So clean all the EGR passages and I even spent a day porting the passages in my exhaust header (aftermarket - LC Engr) to flow more gas. Have heard of floks also putting on a brand new EGR modulator even if the old one tests fine.

A buddy of mine used to do his smog testing on a old set of 28" tires instead of the 35s he normally ran. Gave less load on the little 22RE engine and let it run at a higher RPM.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey Roger! Always giving you prop's... and that's why^^^ lol.

I will retard the timing and most likely replace the Modulator... I think for 265K miles.... it's done it's job well and worthy of replacing for 60$.


I finished the tests(for the most part) on the EGR system, and just now finished testing the BVSV, Cold and Hot.... It passed both tests.... "Blow air into the J while under 86*F(I did it when cold) and be sure that Air passes through the J(lower) port and out the Top(basket/filter).... Then, warm up above 111*F and you should be able to blow air into J and have it come out K port(Upper on the BVSV)".... As I said, passed both tests with flying colors, no resistance, etc. The ONLY thing I haven't done which I haven't seen mentioned, is "Blow air through the vacuum rails one at a time to be sure they will pass air without restriction"... Yes, that's my own quotes of my thoughts, lol. I would think they're working as the rig passed all the other tests... But I can't be sure until I rule it out, ya know?

Here is the testing I just did........



Thanks, guys, I'll keep ya filled in and PLEASE, if you think of anything else.... lemme know(Ie; Fuel system, 02, CTS, 02 too far back on the pipe from the manifold, etc.)... Again, thanks!

Mark

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Next testing will be the modulator(EC-14/ last 2 illustrations above). Not sure it'll do anything but pass, as everything else has thus far... meh, lol. Don't get me wrong... that's good, I know..But it's just frustrating to see that most everything is working and knowing that "almost always, high NOX is EGR related"... ya know?

STILL HUNTING! lol.

Thelast83inNJ

Here, let me mess you up. Looking at the vacuum picture this is a temp controlled system. No VSV. When I get high Nox, I tee in a vacuum gauge to the EGR and drive. Look for vacuum signal, this eliminates the vacuum problem signal if any. (Checking each piece is a good way to learn the system). Most EGR valves open 3-5 inches. Putting a hand pump with 20+ inches will open a weak valve and make you think it's ok. Also check for exhaust backpressure signal on the hose to the bottom of modulator off the EGR. This will tell you if the tube/pipe is clear. Now, let me mess you up. It says the Cat is recent. You barely passed at 15 mph. Is the Cat a quality brand? A cheapy? One cat I assume? Size? It didn't get murdered(overly rich) anytime? Yes, I know I am.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey, ....guys, ...that cat from Jersey 'messed me up'! hahaha. JK, sup man?

Ok, .......hmmmmm, well, YES(If I'm reading you correctly), 'it is' a 'temperature' operated system with no separate VSV for the EGR. In fact, it doesn't have an EGR Temp Sensor, either(87 22RE).

Far as pumping vacuum from the EGR... it stalled at around 8" Max, I'm pretty certain...(Not saying that means the EGR is 'solid'... just sharing it didn't take much vacuum to stall out the motor).

When you say "T it and drive", you're running a vacuum gauge up into the Cab while you drive and watching it when you hit 3000RPM, etc.?

When you say "Check from the hose that feeds the bottom of the Modulator", ... Hook a vacuum or back pressure gauge to it and see if it's getting rammed with air due to a clogged EGR pipe?

Far as the CAT... I believeeeee, IIRC, it's a decent quality Magnaflow that's around 5K or so old... 2.25 in order to 'blend' with the rest of my 2.25" exhaust...... Funny thing is... Before I rebuilt, I passed with the factory cat with 254K miles on it, flying colors!

Thanks, man... if you can't answer, s'all good.... we'll just leave it at "You messed me up..... with the best intentions", hahaha.

Have a great rest of the Weekend, TL83INNJ

PS> Out of curiosity... is there anyway to add an independent sensor for the EGR(independent of the ECU I mean) ? I suppose it's a moot point with my rig at this point, seeing that 'it is what it is' and likely wont need to be messed with for a LONG time thereafter fixing it... Just curious.

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

ON the early 22REs, the EGR is all passively operated, ECU has no input into it nor even knows it is working or not. And in my testing when I failed, my EGR passed all the FSM tests just fine. Problem is those tests say it is working in some form. For a smog/dyno test when you are almost at wide open throttle (notice they use the same dyno for a little 22RE or a big honking V8 engine), you need A LOT OF EXHAUST gas into the intake to do anything. At idle, easy enough to crack open the EGR with a vacuum pump and kill the engine. Bit simply look at the size of the pipe feeding the EGR compared to the size of the pipe feeding air into the intake. And notice all the FSM tests are done up around 2500-3000 RPM and the smog tests are lucky if they even hit that RPM, I think yours shows 2600 or so. So the EGR is just barely opening down that slow and being close to full throttle, the EGR is probably starting to close down as it is designed to.

I had to spend a day cleaning and porting all the EGR passages on my engine. I also retarded timing, filled with premium gas and I even made up a restrictor plate for the exhaust to up the back pressure to feed more exhaust gas back into the system. All that dropped me from like 2400 down to 800.

I think those dyno tests are just stacked against the EGR system on these early 22REs, load is too high, RPMs are too low.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

DAYUMMMMM, ....it feels good to know I've read/looked into/tested on this stuff enough now that I know what you're saying and therein, why I'm having more issues. The strange thing, Roger, is that I was passing with my original CAT with 254K on it and a TIRED OLE ENGINE, lol... Leaking like a pig everywhere, under 120 Compression(lower on a couple, lol)... Yet still passed smog fairly easily. HOWEVER... I now remember, even then, the guy said, "watch out for this one.... It's very close to failing, and the Modulator is usually the culprit".........

Just want to add a couple things before I ask you something;

1. I pumped vacuum in the EGR at idle and it stalled too(maybe I misread what you were saying on that portion of your explanation... Could you elaborate a LIL?) I'm guessing that's normal... And they only want you to raise it to 3000RPM so that it's A LIL harder to stall out?

2. I haven't tested the Modulator on the "air flow" testing that's on that EC-14 page, toward the end... But I will, why not, takes a few minutes.

I get it, and I totally see what you're saying, that, "Just because you passed a couple FSM diagnostic tests... That doesn't mean it's going to allow you to pass Smog test NOX levels"..... It just tells them whether something IS too fubar and just straight out needs replacing... or whether to look further into other things. (Dealer isn't usually dealing with it for smog reasons, but they do that as well... They also have scopes, etc.)

My question, Roger, .... what would YOU do, from here? I don't mind looking into it a lil more... Just don't want to chase my tail all day and night for nothing. I've learned most of the ECU system, the Sensor and they're relationships, along with the TPS, AFM, CTS, etc.(LOTS of which I gleaned from YOU, ....thanks btw)... But without a scope, etc., ...I WONDER if I'm ever going to do anything but "get close with some guessing/applying some tips like lowering the timing/cleaning out the modulator filter or replacing it" and so forth. Whatcha think I should do next? Just lower the timing, replace the Modulator and give it another shot down at the smog testing place?

I'm pretty sure I cleaned out all the EGR ports really well when I hot tanked this head several times and then did air through it as well as much as possible, along with some reaming with bottle brushes, etc.... Is that what you mean? I also TRIED to clean out the EGR pipe... It seemed pretty dang clean, to be honest.

PS> Is it true that the area surrounding the diaphragm of the EGR can get built up with gunk that you can't really ever get to???? Someone told me, "Sure, you can clean it, and it will HELP you get closer to passing and even pass, possibly.. But in some cases.. It's just not ever going to open/close enough(can't remember which he said, open or close, lol)... So it's best to just replace it... i mean, it's lasted you 25 years for 180$!" lol.... Just curious what anyone thought about that.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Roger, ... ANYONE who's watching, lol...

I read this thread, Roger.... WOW! lol.>>>

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/archi.../t-542328.html

I've been wondering about the LC Header(Mine is CARB stamped) and having the 02 back so far... Many guys I know say "Put in a heated one"... But I can see from that thread that you're getting all the readings you need to from a Denso single wire like I'm running(I added shielded wire to my wiring that I picked up at Signal Electronics, Torrance, CA.)

I'm thinking of just retarding the timing and driving it for like 20 minutes to get it nice and hot before I pull in(Maybe call him and find out if I can just slip right in.. And then only pull in there once he's ready for me, ya know? lol)... Also, I could replace the modulator... We'll see. I'ma do a lil more testing and then probably try that. Not sure how many tries I get though! lol.

rworegon

Chef, when I took my mom's car through DEQ smog testing in Portland, they wanted the engine hot and they have big signs about leaving the car running while in the waiting line. The toasty hot system may pull your numbers down quite a bit.