95 4runner won't start, shop could not get running.
11-27-2012, 11:36 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
95 4runner won't start, shop could not get running.
Ok so i just picked up this 4runner from a shop that could not get it to run.
it is a 95 3.0L auto and 2wd sadly...
it original got towed into the shop because the fan bearing went out and the fan hit the radiator. the shop thought it was a water pump so they thought they were going to get into a timing belt job. i guess they figured out it was just the bracket and just replaced that. i was told the shop had to repair some wiring that the fan had cut into but there is no wiring even close to the fan, and no wiring that i see that has been repaired.
thinking they were just trying to run up the bill.
well after replacing the fan bracket they could not get it to run.
they did compression tests on 2,4, and 6. they noted that it was 40-90 psi on first revolution and went up to 100-115psi and 145 max.
they noted it had no spark so they replaced the wires, plugs, distributor cap rotor. still no spark, so they replaced the distributor, and i guess the plug crumbled so the 4 wires are just pushed in it, which seems to work for now...
still no start so they used a tester coil and i guess bypassed the stock coil.
there is a 5 volt reference going to the maf sensor.
they seemed to be stuck at the fact it was getting too much fuel because the injectors were firing 3 times per rotation and they could not figure out why...
and that is the point where i picked it up at.
it had no plugs in it, so i put some good old ngk's in it and gaped to .032 spec. and when i put the wires on they would not clip on. the clips that go on the spark plugs were pushed in to far. so i pulled the connector through the boot and they clip on fine now.
i got the timing gun out hooked it to number 1 and shinned it at the crank.
it was right on TDC when turning the engine over.
i am not sure what it should be with the engine cold and not running.
i know it should be 10 deg before TDC warmed up with the sst in the e1 to te1
i also did a spark check with my spark tester, looks strong.
i moved the timing light to other wires and they all have fire.
i took the dizzi out and moved it a tooth to get to the 10 BTDC but still will not start. there is a small spot when rotating the dizzi that it wants to start but not much.
the tach dose not move when turning it over other than jumping up a little when the motor sounds like it is wanting to try to catch.
i did find out why the injector pules is 3 times per revolution from a wiring diagram so i can stop looking into that... it looks like the injectors are not in the combustion chamber there in the intake and they are batch fired. 2 batches of 3.
the cold start injector dose not seem to be firing at all. but i am not sure if it needs to anyway. i think i read it will only fire if it is below 40F but i am not sure that is correct.
so my plan of action is to pull the #1 plug get it to TDC and re stab the dizzi then check the fuel pressure since it dose not seem like it has been check yet. if all that checks out ok i will be lost after that. maybe check the new dizzi and then find out why there is a random wire going from the positive post of the battery into the fuse box. the wire looks like a cut up extension cord...
the EFI relay has a big whole in the side of it. i am assuming the shop did that to check something
everything this shop did looks half ass and looks like they striped some bolts and had no knowledge on Toyota's...
the only knowledge i have of them is this Lexus lx470 i did a timing belt and all new gaskets on, and of course the interwebs...that strange and useful place.
anyway dose it sound like i am in the right direction?
is there someting i am missing or should know?
sorry about the long post, any help is appreciated.
it is a 95 3.0L auto and 2wd sadly...
it original got towed into the shop because the fan bearing went out and the fan hit the radiator. the shop thought it was a water pump so they thought they were going to get into a timing belt job. i guess they figured out it was just the bracket and just replaced that. i was told the shop had to repair some wiring that the fan had cut into but there is no wiring even close to the fan, and no wiring that i see that has been repaired.
thinking they were just trying to run up the bill.
well after replacing the fan bracket they could not get it to run.
they did compression tests on 2,4, and 6. they noted that it was 40-90 psi on first revolution and went up to 100-115psi and 145 max.
they noted it had no spark so they replaced the wires, plugs, distributor cap rotor. still no spark, so they replaced the distributor, and i guess the plug crumbled so the 4 wires are just pushed in it, which seems to work for now...
still no start so they used a tester coil and i guess bypassed the stock coil.
there is a 5 volt reference going to the maf sensor.
they seemed to be stuck at the fact it was getting too much fuel because the injectors were firing 3 times per rotation and they could not figure out why...
and that is the point where i picked it up at.
it had no plugs in it, so i put some good old ngk's in it and gaped to .032 spec. and when i put the wires on they would not clip on. the clips that go on the spark plugs were pushed in to far. so i pulled the connector through the boot and they clip on fine now.
i got the timing gun out hooked it to number 1 and shinned it at the crank.
it was right on TDC when turning the engine over.
i am not sure what it should be with the engine cold and not running.
i know it should be 10 deg before TDC warmed up with the sst in the e1 to te1
i also did a spark check with my spark tester, looks strong.
i moved the timing light to other wires and they all have fire.
i took the dizzi out and moved it a tooth to get to the 10 BTDC but still will not start. there is a small spot when rotating the dizzi that it wants to start but not much.
the tach dose not move when turning it over other than jumping up a little when the motor sounds like it is wanting to try to catch.
i did find out why the injector pules is 3 times per revolution from a wiring diagram so i can stop looking into that... it looks like the injectors are not in the combustion chamber there in the intake and they are batch fired. 2 batches of 3.
the cold start injector dose not seem to be firing at all. but i am not sure if it needs to anyway. i think i read it will only fire if it is below 40F but i am not sure that is correct.
so my plan of action is to pull the #1 plug get it to TDC and re stab the dizzi then check the fuel pressure since it dose not seem like it has been check yet. if all that checks out ok i will be lost after that. maybe check the new dizzi and then find out why there is a random wire going from the positive post of the battery into the fuse box. the wire looks like a cut up extension cord...
the EFI relay has a big whole in the side of it. i am assuming the shop did that to check something
everything this shop did looks half ass and looks like they striped some bolts and had no knowledge on Toyota's...
the only knowledge i have of them is this Lexus lx470 i did a timing belt and all new gaskets on, and of course the interwebs...that strange and useful place.
anyway dose it sound like i am in the right direction?
is there someting i am missing or should know?
sorry about the long post, any help is appreciated.
11-28-2012, 05:38 AM
#2
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco East Bay
Posts: 8,254
Likes: 0
Received 822 Likes
on
649 Posts
Timing should be pretty close to 10 BTDC even cold. If you removed the distributor and moved it one tooth, that's about 27 degrees. Were you able to get the timing close to 10?
If you've got strong spark, I would concentrate on the fuel system. Are the plugs wet or dry? When you jumper FP to B+ (key-on, not running) can you hear the fuel pump? Can you get it to start with "starter fluid"? (be careful with that stuff, it will give your engine cancer or something)
You might want to take your truck and the bill to another shop. It doesn't sound like you entirely understand what the first shop was telling you, but if you're even half-right, they didn't do a very good job.
If you've got strong spark, I would concentrate on the fuel system. Are the plugs wet or dry? When you jumper FP to B+ (key-on, not running) can you hear the fuel pump? Can you get it to start with "starter fluid"? (be careful with that stuff, it will give your engine cancer or something)
You might want to take your truck and the bill to another shop. It doesn't sound like you entirely understand what the first shop was telling you, but if you're even half-right, they didn't do a very good job.
11-28-2012, 09:16 AM
#3
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i can assure you they did a bad job...lol
it is not going to another shop i do all my own work other than tires and alignment. the odd think is it was running when the fan broke, so it can't be that hard to figure out. i have no clue how long the shop had it though.
the inspection is out and has been out for 5 months so my guess is it has been down for a while. i may grab some octane boost and some seafoam to throw in the gas tank.
i don't like to use starter fluid unless i have to. it should run on it's own.
i will jump those and see if i hear the fuel pump, but i still am going to go get a fuel pressure gauge and check the pressure tonight. i will post what i find.
i have been very busy lately so i am only getting a few hours a night to work on it and i have to make them count.
the odd thing on the timing is how they had it i could only turn it to 0 and when i re-stabbed it it barley wanted to go to 10 so that is why i said i need to pull the plug and just do it from scratch.
it is not going to another shop i do all my own work other than tires and alignment. the odd think is it was running when the fan broke, so it can't be that hard to figure out. i have no clue how long the shop had it though.
the inspection is out and has been out for 5 months so my guess is it has been down for a while. i may grab some octane boost and some seafoam to throw in the gas tank.
i don't like to use starter fluid unless i have to. it should run on it's own.
i will jump those and see if i hear the fuel pump, but i still am going to go get a fuel pressure gauge and check the pressure tonight. i will post what i find.
i have been very busy lately so i am only getting a few hours a night to work on it and i have to make them count.
the odd thing on the timing is how they had it i could only turn it to 0 and when i re-stabbed it it barley wanted to go to 10 so that is why i said i need to pull the plug and just do it from scratch.
Last edited by thesteve151; 11-28-2012 at 09:19 AM.
11-29-2012, 01:15 AM
#5
I would pull the upper timing cover to make sure the cam timing is right on, then check distributer timing. Check that you get voltage to the fuel pump, jumper the fuel pump. If the pump runs, you'll have pressure. Its not like a chevy where if it doesn't have 55 psi then it won't run. Is the AFM hooked back up? thats sends a signal to the COR to power the fuel pump.
11-29-2012, 07:06 PM
#6
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well it is an odd one.
i can hear the pump after jumping it but still no pressure, just a drop of gas...
so the circuit has something wrong with it and the pump is bad...
seems unlikely unless that shop messed something up... i will have to check for power at the pump itself. maybe see if the fuel filter is completely clogged. it looks very old. i am testing for pressure on the drivers side fuel rail. i took that banjo bolt out and put one in with a shredder valve on it.
i can hear the pump after jumping it but still no pressure, just a drop of gas...
so the circuit has something wrong with it and the pump is bad...
seems unlikely unless that shop messed something up... i will have to check for power at the pump itself. maybe see if the fuel filter is completely clogged. it looks very old. i am testing for pressure on the drivers side fuel rail. i took that banjo bolt out and put one in with a shredder valve on it.
03-10-2013, 06:35 PM
#7
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ok so i got it running for 3 days and now it won't start again...
it ended up being that the timing was off by about 4 teeth. when the cooling fan bearing went out some of the ball bearings fell into the timing cover...
well when the shop replaced the fan bracket they did not get them all out and when they went to start it back up the last 2 ball bearings fell and got caught between the crank pully and the timing belt. this made it slip out of time and put some good dents in the crank pulley for the timing belt... so i replaced the pulley, the belt all the timing belt idlers, the hydraulic tensioner and of course did cam and crank seals. it already had a new water pump so i just let that one slide.
well it started up on the first try, but had a check engine light on.
the next day it did not start right away. it turned over but would not start. then i came back to it 10 mins latter and it fired right up. it seemed to run sluggish, but it is in time... no problems starting right back up after it is warm.
now it won't start at all, just turns over with the codes 14, and 22.
the 22 code is always on, even right after i clear it and check it again without trying to turn the truck over in between clearing it.
the code 14 come on after a while of trying to crank it.
so i guess i am back to square one with the trouble shooting.
i will post if i have spark fuel and compression as soon as i get a chance...
this truck is being a pain for sure, can't wait to get it running right.
it ended up being that the timing was off by about 4 teeth. when the cooling fan bearing went out some of the ball bearings fell into the timing cover...
well when the shop replaced the fan bracket they did not get them all out and when they went to start it back up the last 2 ball bearings fell and got caught between the crank pully and the timing belt. this made it slip out of time and put some good dents in the crank pulley for the timing belt... so i replaced the pulley, the belt all the timing belt idlers, the hydraulic tensioner and of course did cam and crank seals. it already had a new water pump so i just let that one slide.
well it started up on the first try, but had a check engine light on.
the next day it did not start right away. it turned over but would not start. then i came back to it 10 mins latter and it fired right up. it seemed to run sluggish, but it is in time... no problems starting right back up after it is warm.
now it won't start at all, just turns over with the codes 14, and 22.
the 22 code is always on, even right after i clear it and check it again without trying to turn the truck over in between clearing it.
the code 14 come on after a while of trying to crank it.
so i guess i am back to square one with the trouble shooting.
i will post if i have spark fuel and compression as soon as i get a chance...
this truck is being a pain for sure, can't wait to get it running right.
Trending Topics
03-10-2013, 06:47 PM
#8
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco East Bay
Posts: 8,254
Likes: 0
Received 822 Likes
on
649 Posts
22 is the ECT; could you have disconnected it at some point? Testing the sensor itself is not difficult (once you get to it) http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-b...98engineco.pdf Keep in mind that you could have a wiring problem, so you might need to run the check from the ECU connector.
14 is a missing IGF signal. Most likely culprit is the igniter. Unfortunately, there is no good way to test one, and they are not cheap. If you could lay your hands on a loaner, I would try that. Short of that, you could walk the diagnostic list. http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-b...12onvehicl.pdf
14 is a missing IGF signal. Most likely culprit is the igniter. Unfortunately, there is no good way to test one, and they are not cheap. If you could lay your hands on a loaner, I would try that. Short of that, you could walk the diagnostic list. http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-b...12onvehicl.pdf
03-11-2013, 05:10 PM
#9
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i was afraid of that. i know i did not disconnect any sensors but the guys before me could have.
i may try a junk yard ignitor if i can find one. i tried to test it at work, but our machine dose not support that one... i am not too worried about the code 22 right now, because i doubt it will cause my problems i am having.
i need to go ahead and test the new distributor because that is the only other thing the shop replaced... and it ran when it went in... so they may have swapped a good old one for a bad new one. from what i hear they can be hard to find a good one.
i may try a junk yard ignitor if i can find one. i tried to test it at work, but our machine dose not support that one... i am not too worried about the code 22 right now, because i doubt it will cause my problems i am having.
i need to go ahead and test the new distributor because that is the only other thing the shop replaced... and it ran when it went in... so they may have swapped a good old one for a bad new one. from what i hear they can be hard to find a good one.
04-21-2013, 11:34 PM
#10
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
so on 4/20 my local junk yard did a $50 all you can carry day...just have to carry everything 20 feet by yourself without using bags or other stuff. only items from the junk yard.
i found a 95 4 runner v6 automatic and i went to town on it, got the whole intake/throttle body fuel rails and injectors, the distributor, the coil/ignition control module, the mass air flow unit, the ecm, the open circuit relay, and it had brand new rotors, bearings, pads and calipers up front so i grabbed those. they still have the cross hatching on the rotors!
got a bunch of other stuff too for my other car and just random headlights tail lights and a spoiler i can all sell to make the $50 back and more.
any way long story short the distributor seems like it did the trick!
i will have to wait till tomorrow to see how it dose on a cold start.
still have the check engine light on but i think it is just the one for the coolant temp sensor. i will deal with that one when i take the injectors out to get cleaned or to test them. they are so loud
even though they put a new one on there. the old one they took off was probably the good one... i am so pissed at that shop.
it seems to have plenty of power now, it will break loose the tires around a corner but not in a straight line.
I still have to check the timing, it got too late to mess with it.
also since i have an extra mass air flow sensor i guess i will try to take the top off and adjust one of them to lean the truck out a bit to get better gas millage. i stumbled across it at one point in time, just have to find that thread again.
will post back soon with final conclusion.
i found a 95 4 runner v6 automatic and i went to town on it, got the whole intake/throttle body fuel rails and injectors, the distributor, the coil/ignition control module, the mass air flow unit, the ecm, the open circuit relay, and it had brand new rotors, bearings, pads and calipers up front so i grabbed those. they still have the cross hatching on the rotors!
got a bunch of other stuff too for my other car and just random headlights tail lights and a spoiler i can all sell to make the $50 back and more.any way long story short the distributor seems like it did the trick!
i will have to wait till tomorrow to see how it dose on a cold start.
still have the check engine light on but i think it is just the one for the coolant temp sensor. i will deal with that one when i take the injectors out to get cleaned or to test them. they are so loud
even though they put a new one on there. the old one they took off was probably the good one... i am so pissed at that shop.
it seems to have plenty of power now, it will break loose the tires around a corner but not in a straight line.
I still have to check the timing, it got too late to mess with it.
also since i have an extra mass air flow sensor i guess i will try to take the top off and adjust one of them to lean the truck out a bit to get better gas millage. i stumbled across it at one point in time, just have to find that thread again.
will post back soon with final conclusion.
04-22-2013, 11:16 PM
#11
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ok so it seems to be starting on the first time every time and it runs good.
drove it to work and back today.
swapped my spare afm with the one that was on there, it works so i went ahead and took the original apart and leaned it out 2 teeth since the 4 runner seems to be running just a bit rich right now.
i am still getting the code 22, but that is the only code.
I plan on dealing with that latter though when i take the intake off.
drove it to work and back today.
swapped my spare afm with the one that was on there, it works so i went ahead and took the original apart and leaned it out 2 teeth since the 4 runner seems to be running just a bit rich right now.
i am still getting the code 22, but that is the only code.
I plan on dealing with that latter though when i take the intake off.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
aciorba23
99+ Tundra, 00+ Sequoia, 98+ Land Cruiser/LX470
1
06-29-2015 04:18 PM
